FDA Opinion about "kid" juice flavor

[skoony]

Let me see if I got this figured out.
There are flavors. Check.
There are people that like certain flavors, some all the flavors some not.
Most people learn what flavors they like or dislike when they are chilln'.
It's not a mater of attraction. It's a mater of choice. There is no separate
group. It's one choice,flavors and one group,people. It's not a mater of attraction,
it's a mater of choice for all.

So in the end it's really about limiting adult choices with out affecting the chillin's
choices. In reality adults will continue choosing the flavors they really want if they
have to make them themselves. This for all practical purposes allows the chillin'
to make these choices if they put their minds to it. Flavor bans change nothing
and add fines and penalties that are frosting on the tax cake.
For the chillin' my southward end of my north bound donkey.

mike

 

[Alexander Mundy]

Why is it ok that you can buy a bottle of whipped creme, strawberry, watermelon, etc flavored vodka. Yet cotton candy juice is the devil and you know how kids can't resist cotton candy. Am I the only one who can't wrap their heads around any of this? It's the equivalent of saying hey scissors are dangerous, kids like the color red so you can no longer produce scissors in the color red.


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"All this was inspired by the principle—which is quite true within itself—that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods. It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think that there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying."

— Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, vol. I, ch. X

 

[Train2]

Add to this mix the astounding truth that they have this aspect of vaping PRECISELY backwards.
Vaping doesn't appeal to youth because of flavors. Teens who try vaping do so to "look cool" or to do something perceived as adult, to do something they're not supposed to, or worst of them, to get a "nic buzz". This is all bad, and vapers nearly unanimously are for regs that would help make it more difficult for them - just like with cigarettes or alcohol.

Flavors, on the other hand, have proven CRITICAL in contributing to the success of vaping as a means of smoking cessation. Time after time, surveys have shown that vapers INITIALLY try tobacco flavors to replicate their smoking habit, but then are surprised when they find satisfaction, and actually QUIT SMOKING when they go outside that box and try a bakery, candy or fruit flavor.

If vaping tasted bad, teens would still do it, but fewer adults would quit smoking.

Vaping is for adults, and is, by a landslide, the most successful replacement for smoking in history.
A variety of flavors and devices is a critical part of vaping.
Teens shouldn't vape, and no one is trying to get them to do so.

 

[sofarsogood]

Add to this mix the astounding truth that they have this aspect of vaping PRECISELY backwards.
Vaping doesn't appeal to youth because of flavors. Teens who try vaping do so to "look cool" or to do something perceived as adult, to do something they're not supposed to, or worst of them, to get a "nic buzz". This is all bad, and vapers nearly unanimously are for regs that would help make it more difficult for them - just like with cigarettes or alcohol.

Flavors, on the other hand, have proven CRITICAL in contributing to the success of vaping as a means of smoking cessation. Time after time, surveys have shown that vapers INITIALLY try tobacco flavors to replicate their smoking habit, but then are surprised when they find satisfaction, and actually QUIT SMOKING when they go outside that box and try a bakery, candy or fruit flavor.

If vaping tasted bad, teens would still do it, but fewer adults would quit smoking.

Vaping is for adults, and is, by a landslide, the most successful replacement for smoking in history.
A variety of flavors and devices is a critical part of vaping.
Teens shouldn't vape, and no one is trying to get them to do so.

If flavor was so important nobody would smoke, especially kids. Cigarettes taste nasty. I have an uneasy relationship with e liquid flavors. One of my challenges in the beginning was I hated most of the flavors and barely liked a few. Now that I'm doing DIY I understand why. The commercial flavors were too strong AND too complicated for my taste. The "cupucinno" flavor I use actually tastes and smells more like maple syrup to me. I use maple syrup to sweeten oatmeal because I don't get tired of it. Then I use the lowest percent that covers the taste of the other ingredients and is detectable. That turns out to be 1.5%. The SV rda clone I favor is particularly good at flavors for some reason. Minimal flavoring means coils hardly gunk up at all. If I rewick a couple of times a week I get crisp flavor and throat hit on a coil that seems to last for weeks or more.

If you are going to be a life long vaper then you're going to be mixing and rebuilding eventually.

 

[DC2]

If you are going to be a life long vaper then you're going to be mixing and rebuilding eventually.

Only if the FDA takes away my Halo Tribeca.
And if my Halo Tribeca is gone, that obviously means that so is everything else.

 

[Jman8]

Add to this mix the astounding truth that they have this aspect of vaping PRECISELY backwards.
Vaping doesn't appeal to youth because of flavors. Teens who try vaping do so to "look cool" or to do something perceived as adult, to do something they're not supposed to, or worst of them, to get a "nic buzz". This is all bad, and vapers nearly unanimously are for regs that would help make it more difficult for them - just like with cigarettes or alcohol.

Flavors, on the other hand, have proven CRITICAL in contributing to the success of vaping as a means of smoking cessation. Time after time, surveys have shown that vapers INITIALLY try tobacco flavors to replicate their smoking habit, but then are surprised when they find satisfaction, and actually QUIT SMOKING when they go outside that box and try a bakery, candy or fruit flavor.

If vaping tasted bad, teens would still do it, but fewer adults would quit smoking.

Vaping is for adults, and is, by a landslide, the most successful replacement for smoking in history.
A variety of flavors and devices is a critical part of vaping.
Teens shouldn't vape, and no one is trying to get them to do so.

Disagree on a fundamental point you make, but need not be the focus of this thread. Do agree with the bolded part.

To me, the kicker is if vaping goes the way of 15 million flavors on open market whittled down to say 100 in next couple years and then for some that is 'way too many' and still all about kids being attracted to those, such that it is whittled down to 2 to 5 flavors on open market... the fact would be that vaping's alternative (smoking) would then be equally attractive. Not just to adults, but to kids.

I like how anti-smoking types think their efforts (alone) are why smoking rates are down over the last 40 years, and even think that in the last 5 years the smoking rates are down solely due to their efforts. I truly think a majority of them frame the whole data based on their work, and only their work. Likely having great pride in all that they do. But clearly missing the fact that sharp decline in smoking and sharp increase in vaping have a fairly obvious connection for everyone else on the planet.

If the shoe were on the other foot and vaping had 2 flavors (total) and smoking had 15 million flavor options, I do wonder how that would play out. I get that smoking would still be considered the more harmful activity, but do wonder if it would appeal to more people just given the amount of options one could have to explore.

While that may seem to take away from the point I (and others) are making, the FACT that vaping is known, even by our arch nemesis (Glantz) to be far less harmful than smoking does mean that you'd have to be rather insane to level the playing field between the two. And that things like reliances on MSA funding and a desire to level the playing field does certainly appear like you actually favor one over the other despite repeated claims of harm. Such that it isn't actually about the harm aspect, but is all about one will give us (anti-tobacco research types) endless funding from consumers that still use, while the other may not. Suddenly science is as corrupt as any other endeavor, all based on the notion that scientists really do enjoy lots of funding despite the political consequences to humanity.

"Screw the kids, I'm getting me some extra money now that we killed vaping off."

...is the reasonable way to understand what scientific researchers are up to, if they seek to eradicate flavors from open market of vaping industry.

 

[skoony]

IMHO the problem we have is most of us have smoked first.
When we started smoking any flavors we used were not the attraction.
Most of us had to learn to get past the gagging and choking. By that
time the flavor part was the least of our concerns. Think back when
you had your first cigarette. Did any of us say,"You know,this tastes
pretty good."

Then we discovered vaping. I started on menthol flavor as that is what I smoked.
My first reaction was,"Hey this isn't half bad." It tasted better than my cigarette.
The throat hit was a different story but,I found the flavor to be superior.
That is because cigarettes in fact taste bad because our reference for comparison
is vaping which does taste better. I am talking about taste here not,the overall
experience.

This led me to consider what does a non smoker perceive that took up vaping.
Wouldn't there be a learning curve involved? Would there be no gag reflex?
No choking feeling? Do they just suck it up and blow clouds bro? Smoke tricks
any one. Do we as toodle puffers jump right into sub ohming cloud competitions
at the drop of a hat with out a single cough? IMHO although undoubtedly a
easier learning curve is inherent to vaping for non smokers how much different
is the perception of taste as they don't have awful tasting cigarettes as a comparison.
When comparing flavors you have eaten to flavors you are inhaling wouldn't there
be a noticeable difference between the two? Not as bad as comparisons to cigarettes
but, will it be so good compared to there previous experience as to be the hook
our opponents claim it is. I suspect that flavors are a choice of preference made
after one starts vaping just like with smoking or drinking. how many of us searched
for that flavor that kept us vaping? I was lucky in that respect. From hearing from
forum members it took some doing for others.

Regards
mike

 

[rico942]

Why aren't the ANTZ pushing for flavors that kids would hate, like liver, beets, broccoli, and brussels sprouts ?

oh wait, i forgot, it has nothing to do with kids at all ...

 

[Rickajho]

Why is it ok that you can buy a bottle of whipped creme, strawberry, watermelon, etc flavored vodka. Yet cotton candy juice is the devil and you know how kids can't resist cotton candy. Am I the only one who can't wrap their heads around any of this? It's the equivalent of saying hey scissors are dangerous, kids like the color red so you can no longer produce scissors in the color red.


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If you are expecting to find logic in any of this you will only hurt your head whacking it on a wall. Simply for the fact that your Nic-O-Gum, tic-tac lookalike mini's and lozenges come in candy flavors too - like orange and cinnamon. Why that crap LOOKS LIKE CANDY even.

It's a blatant bullcrap double standard. Don't expect it to be logical - just fight it.

 

[Danousa]

"How could it get SO much media attention unless its a real crisis", they ask in earnest ?

Just as the bathroom question... While growing up, and to this day I have never worried about it.

 

[frizzy_tyger]

IMHO the problem we have is most of us have smoked first.
When we started smoking any flavors we used were not the attraction.
Most of us had to learn to get past the gagging and choking. By that
time the flavor part was the least of our concerns. Think back when
you had your first cigarette. Did any of us say,"You know,this tastes
pretty good."

Then we discovered vaping. I started on menthol flavor as that is what I smoked.
My first reaction was,"Hey this isn't half bad." It tasted better than my cigarette.
The throat hit was a different story but,I found the flavor to be superior.
That is because cigarettes in fact taste bad because our reference for comparison
is vaping which does taste better. I am talking about taste here not,the overall
experience.

This led me to consider what does a non smoker perceive that took up vaping.
Wouldn't there be a learning curve involved? Would there be no gag reflex?
No choking feeling? Do they just suck it up and blow clouds bro? Smoke tricks
any one. Do we as toodle puffers jump right into sub ohming cloud competitions
at the drop of a hat with out a single cough? IMHO although undoubtedly a
easier learning curve is inherent to vaping for non smokers how much different
is the perception of taste as they don't have awful tasting cigarettes as a comparison.
When comparing flavors you have eaten to flavors you are inhaling wouldn't there
be a noticeable difference between the two? Not as bad as comparisons to cigarettes
but, will it be so good compared to there previous experience as to be the hook
our opponents claim it is. I suspect that flavors are a choice of preference made
after one starts vaping just like with smoking or drinking. how many of us searched
for that flavor that kept us vaping? I was lucky in that respect. From hearing from
forum members it took some doing for others.

Regards
mike

I'm not sure the "learning curve" for not coughing would be the same for someone who had never smoked to start vaping as for smoking. My non smoking SO has taken a few puffs here and there from my vape out of curiousity, especially when the flavor has smelt good to him. He didn't really cough at all but says its a bizzar sensation and the flavor felt more like licking a candle or spraying perfume in his mouth than something pleasant, lol. So there might be some other learning curves from the equipment/flavor standpoint. Though I still don't think vaping would attract many people who havent smoked anything before the experience would still be too forgien.

Also in the end teenagers will do what teenagers will do regardless of what we do or don't do to try to stop them, or how ill advised everyone else finds it. Also in the end if they are going to vape or smoke, I'd rather them vape.

 

[skoony]

I'm not sure the "learning curve" for not coughing would be the same for someone who had never smoked to start vaping as for smoking. My non smoking SO has taken a few puffs here and there from my vape out of curiousity, especially when the flavor has smelt good to him. He didn't really cough at all but says its a bizzar sensation and the flavor felt more like licking a candle or spraying perfume in his mouth than something pleasant, lol. So there might be some other learning curves from the equipment/flavor standpoint. Though I still don't think vaping would attract many people who havent smoked anything before the experience would still be too forgien.

Also in the end teenagers will do what teenagers will do regardless of what we do or don't do to try to stop them, or how ill advised everyone else finds it. Also in the end if they are going to vape or smoke, I'd rather them vape.

Your friends reaction though not as intense as perhaps when I had my first smokes but,
was just as foreign compared to previous experiences. From personal experience i know
smokers who gagged and coughed when trying my Ego style with clearomiser set up.
Many have posted on this forum the experience they have had when trying their first
sub ohm set up and compared it to the choking they had experienced with their first
attempts at smoking. It's different for every one at the personal level but there are a
lot of similarities overall in a general way.
Regards
mike

 

[Endor]

IMHO the problem we have is most of us have smoked first.
When we started smoking any flavors we used were not the attraction.
Most of us had to learn to get past the gagging and choking. By that
time the flavor part was the least of our concerns. Think back when
you had your first cigarette. Did any of us say,"You know,this tastes
pretty good."

I started smoking at a teenager (~15 years old). This was in the mid-1980s, when clove cigarettes were the "trendy" product, and where I started smoking. A lot of teenagers smoked them, as the cloves had a numbing effect on your throat that reduced the throat hit quite a bit. Plus, they tasted really good (I still miss them, frankly) and still had the "rebellion" aspect to them.

As typical of teenager trends, cloves started to fall out of fashion and became harder to find (there were also some rumors of it causing lungs to fill with fluid due to the numbing effect of the cloves that helped). I switched to Marlboro Lights and smoked them until I quit 4+ years ago. The transition was fairly easy, as it was from one cigarette style to another.

So for me, yeah, I did say "You know, this tasted pretty good" when I had my first clove cigarette.

 

[DC2]

I really liked clove cigarettes, and my favorites were Djarum and Kretek.
But I stopped smoking them when people started reporting that they coughed up blood.

But yeah, liked them.

 

[Jalcide]

To add insult to injury, I would not be surprised if focus groups revealed that while some youth respond to the (surely) FDA's oversimplified stereotype of them -- glomming on to bright colors, "cartoons" and candy flavors -- just as many hipster, vaping-bound youth would delight in the exact opposite of that; black and white labels, sophisticated, ornate graphics with skulls, perhaps, even tobacco flavors. Where does one draw the line.

What an Orwellian nightmare this all is.

 

[sawlight]

"OOOOOOOO, SHINEY!!!"

 

[mcclintock]

One thing not understood by non-vapers is the role of flavors in producing throat hit and a sensation of thickness. In my DIY efforts, I've been moving towards setting flavor strength by throat hit rather than flavor strength. It's a highly complex situation.

There are some questionable aspects to some of the packaging, but almost every highly competitive market produces some excesses. In foods, this has resulted in more unhealthy choices tending to dominate (can't say I don't like them though).

Some article or video showing a highly-zoomed in huge bottle of a "kiddy" label is very clearly done with an agenda. Typically, ejuice labels need to get your attention despite being in a tiny bottle on a shelf 6 feet behind the counter in a 18+ shop.

 

[jersey_emt]

I really liked clove cigarettes, and my favorites were Djarum and Kretek.

Kretek is just a generic name for clove cigarettes; it is not a brand like Djarum. Clove cigarette manufacturers got around the flavor ban by just wrapping them in tobacco leaf instead of paper, which made them legally classified as cigars (but now that route is going away).

You can still buy clove cigarettes directly from Indonesia. It ends up being ridiculously cheap as long as you buy enough to make the shipping charges worth it. When I was still smoking, I would order clove cigarettes from Indonesia at a cost of around $2/pack with shipping, ordering 20-30 packs at a time. And these were all individual packs, not cartons or bulk packs (I wanted to try as many different brands as possible, and there is quite a selection). One shipment ended up getting seized, but the seller just sent another package free of charge.

 

[Oliver]

What I find hard to understand is that if kids are attracted to these flavors, and using them, they are (in today's world) doing so illicitly. Likely all states now have laws forbidding minor purchase or use. Sure there are exceptions, but the overwhelming data would support the underground market usage.

So stricter laws on adults could impact that, but won't actually change the fact that kids are already first participants in a black market, where the rules in essence don't apply. The only rule that would clearly apply is you can't advertise, openly, in that market.

The part I find hard to understand is that clearly kids are attracted to, find appealing things that are intended for adults, even if laws are passed prohibiting them from engaging in that. Seems like it would take loads of ignorance to not understand what is actually occurring there. And so I find it hard to understand why so many adults are childish in relation to what is evidenced in this ongoing predicament that adults find themselves in. But, I'll continue to treat them (adults) as the children they are acting as, for their appeal to ignorance is surely well known.

I don't know if you've spotted the inherent danger here.

It's obviously a truism that flavors appeal to children. Flavors, after all, appeal to everyone.

Now, availability is clearly key and as you note, kids are accessing these devices illegally (although I'm not sure who's actually doing the lawbreaking), but largely because they are available legally to adults. The FDA thinking may well be something along the lines of: "We don't really care if adults like the flavors, if they appeal to kids they're a problem. So we'll get rid of them."

And I don't think the threat of flavors going underground argument is really going to wash. I think we all realise that if they did go underground, kids would almost certainly vape less. The problem is, so would adults.

The question is then, "does the FDA have the political clout to deal with this in "the [actual] public health interest"?"

In other words, is the FDA able to tackle honestly and head-on whether kids are becoming dependent on nicotine via vape, and the extent to which vape is currently responsible for record year-on-year declines in adult smoking?

I fear not.

 

[Lessifer]

I think we all realise that if they did go underground, kids would almost certainly vape less. The problem is, so would adults.

Honestly, I don't think we KNOW this. I don't think we even know if "kids" are really even using flavors. I haven't looked into it, but the few things I have seen with teens vaping have been all about tricks, I've never heard a teen mention a flavor. Just like no one asked if they were using nicotine, no one asked if they were using flavors either. Granted, some undoubtedly are, but they could just as easily be vaping pure VG.

You're right though, the real question is whether or not vaping is a credible public health "threat," as opposed to just a "potential" one.