Plastic melting carts = poison

[Vaporer]

Well.......that many people cannot be wrong.
Attys do vary a little 3.2-3.4 ohms.....one that came out of the factory say @ 2.8ohms would surely run hotter.

It may be the fact that I mod my carts and attys too (sometimes), for more airflow. I like an easier draw more like an analog. So.....If I'm drawing more cool air in, mine don't run as hot.

Insert light bulb coming on < here >

 

[Ralph Hilton]

My 510 atties from TW are around 2.3 ohms measuring the current and voltage on the atty rather than resistance.

 

[Robert]

I assume you have a 510? If so, you need to align your cartridges so the flat edges don't sit on the edges of the bridge. Just use search, the details are posted here somewhere.

You Win- This is the correct answer!!!

Very important info- for all new to vaping. I made a video that explains this- IMO this is the most important info for 510 users.

At 5 and 6 volts I also trim my carts 1/8 in. to avoid this.

Also if the want to align easily- see the dots on my atty and cart in my sig? Paint them on. That is how!

 

[Kate51]

I've had to trim most of my carts, 801's. Once I get them they're all in the box, so don't ever remember which ones came from where. But I use the white-out to put a dot on the top-side of the atty so I don't have to go get my glasses everytime I juice up. 801 atty's are harder to see into for me.

 

[PaulZ]

my 510 had one cart melt after a vaping session - which i normally don't do. It only went down a tiny bit, and none of my other ones have melted. I'll probably trim the carts a bit anyway to improve air flow

 

[Vaporer]

Ralph,

Thats low and is putting out abt 7 watts! Battery life would be very poor. I remember Nuck saying he had some 510's that were 2.? (low)ohm 510's. Since they all use the same 3.7v from the factory, there is no reason for them to be that low. It sure will generate more heat.
I dont have any TW 510's, but my others from abt 5 sources are all in the 3.2-3.4ohm range. Resistance can change with heat, normally it gets higher.
Any chance of getting a static cold ohm reading on one of those TW's?

Robert, running something that was designed for 3.7v on 5 & 6v I'd expect some overheating. Acrolein can be converted from VG at 280*C (536*F).
I'd run my PV as cool as possible.

Kate, good idea marking your trimmed ones.
No melted or burnt plastic should ever be inhaled. Anything you can or have to do to avoid it should be implemented.

 

[Scottbee]

Ralph,

Robert, running something that was designed for 3.7v on 5 & 6v I'd expect some overheating. Acrolein can be converted from VG at 280*C (536*F).
I'd run my PV as cool as possible.

Are you sure that you can create Acrolein from glycerol by simply heating the glycerol at atmospheric pressures? I thought the process was more complicated than that.. and/or required a catalyst.

 

[Kate51]

Are you sure that you can create Acrolein from glycerol by simply heating the glycerol at atmospheric pressures? I thought the process was more complicated than that.. and/or required a catalyst.

I know there have been many posts about acrolein formation, will have to go back to look for them, I do believe it was in a MODDING thread....consensus is the atomizers do not produce sufficient heat for acrolein formation. But good question to persue for sure...do not harm. If I find the posts will paste a link here.

 

[Scottbee]

I know there have been many posts about acrolein formation, will have to go back to look for them, I do believe it was in a MODDING thread....consensus is the atomizers do not produce sufficient heat for acrolein formation. But good question to persue for sure...do not harm. If I find the posts will paste a link here.

Yeah... I read through quit a few of them. What was sadly missing were posts from real-life chemists (as near as I could tell). I didn't see anybody talk about phase diagrams or any of the other technical details that would accurately describe what can cause glycerol to convert to acrolein.

At first blush it would appear to require super-heating.... which isn't readily done at standard atmospheric pressures.

 

[Vaporer]

Well.......I've seen to many sources like this one and I'd rather be safe than sorry.

"When Glycerol is heated to 280 °C, it decomposes into acrolein. Acrolein may also be produced on lab scale by the reaction of potassium bisulfate on glycerol (glycerine)."
Acrolein: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article

Attys at 3.7v are pulling approx 1A. So, you can use this CURRENT TEMPERATURE TABLE for the temp.
Nichrome Wire

We've all seen our atty coils glow red. Here's a color temp table.
Metal Temperature by Color

The amount of airflow will have effects on the temp, but as we all know many attys develop a hard draw with little air flow.
Running an atomizer designed for 3.7v at almost 2x the voltage is quite a bit hotter.

If you want to say its safe and not happening, that's your choice.

 

[Kate51]

Here's a good source to answer one question, anyway, about the findings of October 2008

http://www.healthnz.co.nz/RuyanCartridgeReport30-Oct-08.pdf

this is an exerpt of same regarding harmful components:

Three experiments were undertaken, as follows:

1. 38 millilitre puff. After correcting for dilution, the most common cigarette smoke
toxicants were found to be either completely absent, or present in amounts less than 1
part per million. The LED at the tip of the e-cigarette was activated, indicating air was
pulled through the e-cigarette. The mean results from analysis of duplicate samples were as
follows:

Table 3.1.2 Compounds measured in first 38 ml sample of e-cigarette mist.
Compound Mean Units

1,3-butadiene not detected Ppm
Acetaldehyde 0.34 Ppm
Acetone 0.16 Ppm
Acrolein not detected Ppm
Acrylonitrile not detected Ppm
Benzene not detected Ppm
Ethanol 100 Ppm
Ethylene glycol not detected Ppm
Ethylene oxide not detected Ppm
Formaldehyde 0.25 Ppm
Hydrogen cyanide not detected Ppm
Cresol 0.16 Ppm
Xylene 0.18 Ppm
Nicotine not detected Ppm
Propylene glycol 32 Ppm
Propylene oxide not detected Ppm
Styrene 0.29 Ppm
Note: The limit of detection was 0.01 ppm and the limit of quantification was 0.025 ppm
for this analysis.

2. 58 milliliter puff. Analysis revealed that the concentration of propylene glycol was too
high for the SIFT-MS instrument, so a subsequent dilution was made bringing the overall
dilution to 1 part puff in 1500 parts air. The results obtained revealed a concentration of
approximately 0.5% propylene glycol (5000 ppm) in the original puff, but did not allow theresearchers to gain any reliable quantitative data for the toxicants.

Hope this helped a bit.

 

[Scottbee]

Well.......I've seen to many sources like this one and I'd rather be safe than sorry.

So you're not going to vape anymore?

 

[Vaporer]

Kate,

I don't see glycerine in the list. That appears to be a PG formulation from the New Zealand Studies.

Scotty,

No, I didn't say that. I just don't see why people want to push it running higher temps when it appears to be safer running it the way it was designed. I've also seen testing results that contained VG and no acrolein was present and many will argue that its close to the temp to form it. So, I have to assume they are using the "standard" setup.

Another thing I've never been able to find is when the e cig was originally designed was VG a component of e liquid or did someone along the way just add it in for more vapor production and it "caught on"?

Vaping is still safer than analogs IMHO, but why risk acrolein for a little more fog? Many say a lot of flavor is lost at high volts and some now make juice for them with more flavor added. I add abt 30% VG to my liquids sometime. I'm just not a proponent of 5 & 6v. I do think people should be made aware that it can happen. They can do the research if they decide to and make thier choice.

Actually, I think this is the last time I'll mention it.

 

[Kurt]

Well.......I've seen to many sources like this one and I'd rather be safe than sorry.

"When Glycerol is heated to 280 °C, it decomposes into acrolein. Acrolein may also be produced on lab scale by the reaction of potassium bisulfate on glycerol (glycerine)."
Acrolein: Facts, Discussion Forum, and Encyclopedia Article

Attys at 3.7v are pulling approx 1A. So, you can use this CURRENT TEMPERATURE TABLE for the temp.
Nichrome Wire

We've all seen our atty coils glow red. Here's a color temp table.
Metal Temperature by Color

The amount of airflow will have effects on the temp, but as we all know many attys develop a hard draw with little air flow.
Running an atomizer designed for 3.7v at almost 2x the voltage is quite a bit hotter.

If you want to say its safe and not happening, that's your choice.

But according to wiki, VG boils at 290 deg C. The decomposition reaction to produce acrolein is an oxidation. This is why bisulfate is used, as this is a oxidating agent. It seems that there is some info not included with this decomposition statement. Implied is that VG does not boil, but only decomposes, and this is not true. Perhaps other conditions must be in place, like high pressure, or an active catalyst.

Have the chinese analyzed vapor from juices containing VG? They detected no acrolein, but was this a PG-only juice?

What is the water-glycerol eutectic? In other words, are the juices boiling at lower temps due to the presence of eutectic water?

My 510 attys will glow orange if I keep them fired long enough. I do not initent to mod to higher voltage, as I have no reason to. I get plenty of vapor now, and good flavor at 3.7 V.

Has TW looked into this? Their unflavored 36 mg is 65% pg 20 % VG. Maybe the mix boils at a lower temp, or PG vaporizing just carries out VG with it?

VG producing alpha,beta-unsaturated carbonyl compounds could be a real problem. They are toxic because they polymerize so easily, and are very reactive. ketones like this smell of paint, since this is what is used for the vehicle of paint to make it polymerize. I'm pretty good with being able to detect the smell of many organic compounds. Could this be the time-to-top-off taste that we all know??? Maybe acrolein is a combustion product, and not just a vaporization product.

Hopefully this is not a problem, but I think it is good to figure it out. Someone else said this has been discussed and was determined to not happen. Can you post links to those threads, please? I"m seeing a lot of statements about acrolein, but nothing that is telling me that it is being produced absolutely in normal 3.7 V vaping. I am not a big fan of PG at all, and I'm using almost exclusively VG these days, and liking it a lot. So some detailed info on this would be good. Not sure what I'll do if it turns out VG is bad...I have a lot of high-nic VG juice.

 

[Vex444]

I too hav noticed a bit of melting on edge of cart. Thanks to this thread I now will trim the carts thought it was me.

 

[Vaporer]

I apologize for jacking the thread on the other issue.
They seem to go so close together though. Manual switches and higher volts can easily cause your problem too.

It's for sure if you can smell or taste burnt plastic it isn't good for you and you should do what you need to prevent it from happening.

 

[Kate51]

I think it is appropriate Vaporer, it all ties together well. The testing was done with Propylene Glycol, temps of VG and PG would vary, however it was tested for acrolein in the mist, not in chamber with bisulfates. So one could assume this is an area that needs more clarification. Gotta do some more looking, the Ruyan testing did touch on the things tested for, but only under limited conditions as far as number of puffs, and the mist was also on a full cart. For example, running low on e-liquid, dry atty, high power, etc.
NOTE TO SELF: ask somebody!!

 

[Kurt]

I think it is appropriate Vaporer, it all ties together well. The testing was done with Propylene Glycol, temps of VG and PG would vary, however it was tested for acrolein in the mist, not in chamber with bisulfates. So one could assume this is an area that needs more clarification. Gotta do some more looking, the Ruyan testing did touch on the things tested for, but only under limited conditions as far as number of puffs, and the mist was also on a full cart. For example, running low on e-liquid, dry atty, high power, etc.
NOTE TO SELF: ask somebody!!

Thanks for posting this Kate. It looks like the Ruyan juice was PG, with no VG. Thus no acrolein found.

Vaporer, I also think this is very related, since it is a high-heat/toxicity issue. So I for one am glad we are discussing it.

Acrolein is a strong lacromator, meaning it would take ng quantities to get a mucus membrane response (itch, burn, runny, sneeze, tearing of eyes). I've worked with acrolein, since is is a common synthesis starting material. Just putting a beaker of it at room temp under the nose will set off major "allergic" response. I've gotten ZERO response like that to VG based juices, and I have a very sensitive nose. On the other hand, I am certainly not alone in my somewhat aversion to PG, since it can produce runny nose and headaches for me, as it does with many others. VG, OTOH has a much better track record for lack of allergic responses.

Also, we are not dealing with pure VG, but rather a mixture that has perhaps a little PG, water, flavorings, etc. The vaporization temp could be FAR lower than the BP of pure VG.

Some of my 510 attys glow orange, some do not glow at all. All vape fine.

Acrolein formation from VG requires oxidation, not just dehydration decomposition. Something has to take electrons. Combustion (rxn with O2) would do it, but vaping is not combustion, nor is there anything that would act as an oxidizer present in an atty.

In addition, TW gives the lab report on their 36 mg PG/VG unflavored juice, which has to be vaporized and bombarded (oxidized) with high energy electrons. No acrolein was detected.

Thus empirically I would have to say that acrolein is not being produced. A simple thing would be to analyze the mist of a VG juice, like the chinese did with the PG juice. Until then, we don't really know for sure. But I am leaning strongly towards the opinion that acrolein not being produced with a normal 510 atty and VG juice. Of course, this is OPINION, not necessarily fact. Still looking for more clues.

Besides looking at metal glow colors, is there anything known about the temperatures of an atty heating element? Is it anywhere near 550 C (BP glycerin)?

I'm going to try to do some digging myself on this.

Kurt

 

[Scottbee]

Just an FYI... you will never see an atty "glow" when it is actually "wetted" with PG or VG liquid. Only when it is "dry burned". The latent heat of vaporization... and just the increase in conductive heat loss pretty much keeps a lid on the coil temperatures.

 

[Nestran]

If you think you are melting carts, what is happening to your cart filler? The filler, by design, touches the bridge. If your cart is melting then the cart filler would also have to melt. No?

Nestran