Propylene Glycol origins?

[Alien Traveler]

its not a theory.its how it works.
the reason pure VG is hard to vape is becuase
there is not enough water content to atomize
the mix properly .that's why most add water.
they think their just thinning it a little. in
actuality its creating more water vapor to
better atomize the base liquid.
in order for PG to start vaporizing the tempiture
would have to be above 300F.VG above 500F.
the water vaporizes starting at 180F.
once you open a bottle of PG or VG and start mixing
it is absorbing water from the air relative to the humidity.
without adding water most juice will have 2-3 % minimum
water.water is added in most cases during production to
maintain consistency of product insuring quality.
the main ingredients of PG and VG is water.
regards
mike

Please stop flooding ECF with this misinformation.
Here is the thread you was keeping away. It is worth reading.
How Vapor is Born | E-Cigarette Forum

 

[Robert Cromwell]

There is only one fact I am a 100% sure of and that is in 10 years' time I will be 10 years older and probably dead anyway - whether I vape or not. For all I know I might die from eating bacon... of just from inhaling exhaust fumes while taking a stroll by the waterfront. Once again I have to express my puzzlement. If people are having nightmares about the possible effects of vaping, why do they vape? Why don't they just quit.

I am going to die from using non organic cotton in my wicks...

 

[bluecat]

There is nothing puzzling about it. It is known as having an addictive personality. Most folks would consider people who hoard and live on tons of trash to be a very puzzling lifestyle. But, hoarding is very real and the person who has OCD and the hoarding problem struggles and suffers with it.

Here is a snippet from Wikipedia on addiction and I will highlight the main points....

Addiction is a state characterized by compulsive engagement in rewarding stimuli, despite adverse consequences.[7] It can be thought of as a disease or biological process leading to such behaviors.[1][8] The two properties that characterize all addictive stimuli are that they are reinforcing (i.e., they increase the likelihood that a person will seek repeated exposure to them) and intrinsically rewarding (i.e., something perceived as being positive or desirable).[1][3][6]

Addiction is a disorder of the brain's reward system which arises through transcriptional and epigenetic mechanisms and occurs over time from chronically high levels of exposure to an addictive stimulus (e.g., morphine, ......., sexual intercourse, gambling, etc.).[1][9][10] ΔFosB, a gene transcription factor, is a critical component and common factor in the development of virtually all forms of behavioral and drug addictions;[9][10][11][12] two decades of research into ΔFosB's role in addiction have demonstrated that addiction arises, intensifies, and dies along with the genetic overexpression of ΔFosB in the D1-type medium spiny neurons of the nucleus accumbens, and it is therefore is used preclinically as an addiction biomarker.[1][9][10][11] ΔFosB expression in these neurons directly and positively regulates drug self-administration and reward sensitization through positive reinforcement while decreasing sensitivity to aversion.[note 1][1][9]

Addiction exacts an astoundingly high toll on individuals and society as a whole through the direct adverse effects of drugs, associated healthcare costs, long-term complications (e.g., lung cancer with smoking tobacco, liver cirrhosis with drinking alcohol, or .... mouth from intravenous methamphetamine), the functional consequences of altered neural plasticity in the brain, and the consequent loss of productivity.[13][14] Classic hallmarks of addiction include impaired control over substances or behavior, preoccupation with substance or behavior, and continued use despite consequences.[15] Habits and patterns associated with addiction are typically characterized by immediate gratification (short-term reward), coupled with delayed deleterious effects (long-term costs).[16]

Examples of drug and behavioral addictions include: alcoholism, amphetamine addiction, ....... addiction, nicotine addiction, opiate addiction, exercise addiction, food addiction, gambling addiction, and sexual addiction. The term addiction is misused frequently to refer to other compulsive behaviors or disorders, particularly dependence, in news media

Yet that would assume we are all addicted. Hoarders are the extreme. Are/were we addicted to vaping and smoking in the clinical sense? I can go a full days work(8-10 hours) does that make me addicted? I enjoy vaping. I enjoyed smoking. I enjoy swimming. I enjoy exercise. I enjoy eating my wife's cooking. Because I enjoy something doesn't make me an addict. Heck I hate mowing the grass until I start it, then oddly enough I enjoy it immensely.. even the smell of the gas from the engine.

I would venture to say many of us here are not necessarily addicted. We here represent a small portion of vapers. The rest do not care about any of this.

 

[skoony]

Please stop flooding ECF with this misinformation.
Here is the thread you was keeping away. It is worth reading.
How Vapor is Born | E-Cigarette Forum

vapor is the visible evaporation of liquid caused by force.
in some cases it can be caused by temperature and air pressure.
the mist upon the lake.the fog rolling in from the sea.
in the case of vaping it is the force transferred via heat causing
the visible evaporation of the water in sufficient quantity
to produce enough vapor to effectively atomize (produce a fine mist)
the base mix. just like in any hand pumped sprayer. in the first
case the vaporizing water is the force.in the later compressed air.
the first e-cigs used a sonic vibrator as the force. these were
expensive and prone to gunking.
water will boil at 212F at sea level. PG will boil around
340-60F. VG will boil at well over 500F.
which one will vaporize first?
if you want to call what you see vapor fine.
i have no problem with that.
you could put e-juice in a medical inhaler that uses
compressed gas as the force and get the same result.

regards
mike

 

[crxess]

Surprised this has not been added to the discussion:
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927239

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/propylene_glycol_addendum.pdf

Search word - Inhalation - to shorten reading!
Tons of studies covering many applications for PG and its effects.
Propylene glycol - National Library of Medicine HSDB Database
Difficult to reach poorly archived Peer review documents.

Propylene glycol monomethyl ether (PGME) (CASRN 107-98-2) | IRIS | US EPA


The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary: Pre-Clinical Study of Inhaled Propylene Glycol Found No Adverse Respiratory Effects

Of course when the time comes the FDA will use only the minimal negative notations in all studies to present its case in regulating Vaping products.

* After some serious reading I now believe the (Young) Child ingestion threat has more to do with PG than nicotine as PG to body weight can cause severe nervous system reactions.

***Mike, your assumptions concern me.
I DIY using:
99.9% pure USP PG
100% Pure USP Kosher VG
Flavoring in PG
Nicotine in 100% PG
No water added in any mixes

Requirements to Vaporize these ingredients properly in my particular Tank is a minimum of 30J to reach a heat temperature of approximately 400 Degrees.
Not sure how you come to the conclusion a liquid cannot Vaporize once reaching a given temperature.
Oddly PG and VP both have MSDS information and studies including Boiling point and Vaporization.

 

[Alien Traveler]

Here's a link for a study done, which found no toxicity.. TESTS FOR THE CHRONIC TOXICITY OF PROPYLEXE GLYCOL AND TRIETHYLENE GLYCOL ON MONKEYS AND RATS BY VAPOR INHALATION AND ORAL ADMINISTRATION done in 1947.

The Journal of Pharmacology is a reasonable source also.

It's an interesting paper. Materials were supplied by Carbide and Carbon Chemicals Corporation, which "has placed on the market a purified triethylene glycol labelled "Air Sterilization Grade"".

Research was done on rats and monkeys, but with monkeys it was too flawed (sick animals), so only results for rats are interesting. Two things:
1. No changes in internal organs, including lungs, because of exposure to glycols vapor.
2. Exposed rats were obese (but it was not mentioned in a paper, they used term "growth rate"...)

At the end of experiment exposed rats were 150% heavier than those in control group. For a human person with normal weight of 160 lb it means gaining weight of 240 lb, very high degree of obesity. What does it means? I have no idea. I just see that results of this very old paper should be taken with great degree of caution.

 

[Alien Traveler]

vapor is the visible evaporation of liquid caused by force.
in some cases it can be caused by temperature and air pressure.
the mist upon the lake.the fog rolling in from the sea.
in the case of vaping it is the force transferred via heat causing
the visible evaporation of the water in sufficient quantity
to produce enough vapor to effectively atomize (produce a fine mist)
the base mix. just like in any hand pumped sprayer. in the first
case the vaporizing water is the force.in the later compressed air.
the first e-cigs used a sonic vibrator as the force. these were
expensive and prone to gunking.
water will boil at 212F at sea level. PG will boil around
340-60F. VG will boil at well over 500F.
which one will vaporize first?
if you want to call what you see vapor fine.
i have no problem with that.
you could put e-juice in a medical inhaler that uses
compressed gas as the force and get the same result.

regards
mike

I am sorry, I would not "theorize" with you and hijack this thread. I gave you a link to a thread which you are shy to answer. I will continue discussion on the topic only if you read what already was written.

 

[skoony]

At the end of experiment exposed rats were 150% heavier than those in control group. For a human person with normal weight of 160 lb it means gaining weight of 240 lb, very high degree of obesity. What does it means? I have no idea. I just see that results of this very old paper should be taken with great degree of caution.

i have a concern about VG for this very reason.
i know a few fry cooks with diabetes and or high cholesterol that had to quit
there jobs due to the oils being absorbed through the skin.
if there ever was a health concern pertaining to vaping this
would be of more concern than other things mentioned.
regards
mike

 

[skoony]

I am sorry, I would not "theorize" with you and hijack this thread. I gave you a link to a thread which you are shy to answer. I will continue discussion on the topic only if you read what already was written.

what are you asking?
i have given you my answer.
we are not even boiling the water as it vaporizes before it boils
if every thing is wicked properly.
we certainly are not reaching the temperatures required
to even cause PG and or VG to vaporize.
if that were the case we all would be holding little
branding irons to our lips.
regards
mike

 

[Alien Traveler]

what are you asking?
i have given you my answer.
we are not even boiling the water as it vaporizes before it boils
if every thing is wicked properly.
we certainly are not reaching the temperatures required
to even cause PG and or VG to vaporize.
if that were the case we all would be holding little
branding irons to our lips.
regards
mike

I am asking you to read.
By the way, nothing is boiling separately, not water, not PG, not VG. Read linked thread.

 

[skoony]

I am asking you to read.
By the way, nothing is boiling separately, not water, not PG, not VG. Read linked thread.

i have read it.
so i will ask you again.
what is your question?

regards
mike

 

[AXIOM_1]

I enjoy vaping. I enjoyed smoking. I enjoy swimming. I enjoy exercise. I enjoy eating my wife's cooking. Because I enjoy something doesn't make me an addict.

I would venture to say many of us here are not necessarily addicted. We here represent a small portion of vapers. The rest do not care about any of this.

I think you better reread the quotes from the Wiki in order to understand addiction better. Nature, God, Fate, or whatever you want to view it as, equips humans with certain desires and enjoyments in order to SURVIVE and to be of benefit to the species.... Things such as eating, sex etc... If people didn't like food so much then they probably wouldn't eat and would die off. Nature equips us with that beneficial enjoyment. Never heard of a human that never enjoyed some type of food.

On the other hand, when you enjoy things that are harmful, and you know they are harmful (ie: smoking) then you are committing a non beneficial and harmful act (unnatural), which by the fundamental definition in the Wiki, is called ADDICTION......... So, since you were a smoker you have admitted you are an addict...........

I don't care if you go days without smoking or whatever activity may be hazardous because even doing anything that is harmful and knowing full well that it is harmful is called ADDICTION (if you keep doing it).......... There are many folks who are binge drinkers and not raging drunks and who do not drink daily but none the less they are still classified as alcoholics with patterns of an addictive personality.

Even though we don't know if vaping is harmful in the long term, it still is indicative of an addictive personality because there is the POSSIBILITY of it being dangerous, and most folks know this but yet they do it anyway. It's called taking chances with ones own health and self preservation and this is the hallmark of an addictive personality.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

OMG! I am a marriage addict!

 

[AXIOM_1]

OMG! I am a marriage addict!

LOl... I am a "weird" addict

 

[bluecat]

I think you better reread the quotes from the Wiki in order to understand addiction better. Nature, God, Fate, or whatever you want to view it as, equips humans with certain desires and enjoyments in order to SURVIVE and to be of benefit to the species.... Things such as eating, sex etc... If people didn't like food so much then they probably wouldn't eat and would die off. Nature equips us with that beneficial enjoyment. Never heard of a human that never enjoyed some type of food.

On the other hand, when you enjoy things that are harmful, and you know they are harmful (ie: smoking) then you are committing a non beneficial and harmful act (unnatural), which by the fundamental definition in the Wiki, is called ADDICTION......... So, since you were a smoker you have admitted you are an addict...........

I don't care if you go days without smoking or whatever activity may be hazardous because even doing anything that is harmful and knowing full well that it is harmful is called ADDICTION (if you keep doing it).......... There are many folks who are binge drinkers and not raging drunks and who do not drink daily but none the less they are still classified as alcoholics with patterns of an addictive personality.

Even though we don't know if vaping is harmful in the long term, it still is indicative of an addictive personality because there is the POSSIBILITY of it being dangerous, and most folks know this but yet they do it anyway. It's called taking chances with ones own health and self preservation and this is the hallmark of an addictive personality.

I do not need to read it again. Addiction is tough to identify. People throw terms around not really fully understanding what they are saying. Answer fully.. if tobacco/nicotine was taken away would you die? For most of us the clear answer is no. Some may, but that is just the extreme cases. Clear you use the liberal sense of addiction.

Everything we do in life at some minute level is dangerous.. even from drinking water to laying on the couch.

Here is what I have learned in my 50 years of life. The government keeps dumbing test down so more people identify with a particular "evil". This in turn generates more money. Is it right is it wrong? Not sure to be honest.

So anyone who enjoy doing anything that may remotely be harmful has an addictive personality. Check, you just categorized 99% of the world's population. Addictions are not bad.

Agreed is vaping harmful in the long term. Who knows. I know I don't. I am going to take my chances on vaping over smoking any day. I enjoy it.. I enjoyed smoking. I still enjoy a cigar. I enjoy a cup or two of caffeine every morning, sometimes (gasp), I will have one in the afternoon. I enjoy a beer or two on the weekends. Sometimes I may have more than 6 in a weekend. My wife drinks a glass of wine every night at dinner. I am just a full fledged addicted fool.

I take a chance when I get the highway going to work everyday. I took a chance when the fool at the gas station decided he deserved to walk where I was walking and I should get out of the way. Luckily for him, he left after I asked if his mommy put his tight panties on this morning.

 

[VNeil]

Even though we don't know if vaping is harmful in the long term, it still is indicative of an addictive personality because there is the POSSIBILITY of it being dangerous, and most folks know this but yet they do it anyway. It's called taking chances with ones own health and self preservation and this is the hallmark of an addictive personality.

How many times do I have to jump up and down and scream "there are no products, behaviors or activities associated with modern life that do not include the possibility of being dangerous or harmful!!!.". There is nothing in our life that passes that impossibly high bar of threashhold, that proves that negative.

That includes RF from our phones, the GMO food we eat, from the latest seeds delivered by Monsanto to our farmers. Since GMO can change with each year's crops, there will never and can never be any long term studies of the corn or wheat you ate yesterday. Does that make daily eating an addiction because there is that possibility of harm?

You are trying to redefine "addiction" to include anything for which that negative can never be proven. Which is everything. Or... perhaps... just anything you care to propagandize. Take your pick.

 

[skoony]

Even though we don't know if vaping is harmful in the long term, it still is indicative of an addictive personality because there is the POSSIBILITY of it being dangerous, and most folks know this but yet they do it anyway. It's called taking chances with ones own health and self preservation and this is the hallmark of an addictive personality.

addiction is habit that is known to cause harm to ones self or others.
there is no possibly cause clause.
people who chew gum constantly out of habit are
not considered addicts even though there is a small
possibility it could cause dental problems in very extreme
cases.
to be termed an addiction the level of harm must exceed
the harm normally found in a non-using group.
one cannot say that people who do not brush their teeth
resulting in dental decay are non-brushing addicts because
they are exhibiting a habit known to cause harm.

regards
mike

 

[stevegmu]

I don't buy into the whole harm must be a result for there to be an addiction. I think it all has to do with what happens when the substance or act is removed or withheld from someone...

 

[Robert Cromwell]

I don't buy into the whole harm must be a result for there to be an addiction. I think it all has to do with what happens when the substance or act is removed or withheld from someone...

Yep marriage is an addiction then.

 

[bluecat]

its not a theory.its how it works.
the reason pure VG is hard to vape is becuase
there is not enough water content to atomize
the mix properly .that's why most add water.
they think their just thinning it a little. in
actuality its creating more water vapor to
better atomize the base liquid.
in order for PG to start vaporizing the tempiture
would have to be above 300F.VG above 500F.
the water vaporizes starting at 180F.
once you open a bottle of PG or VG and start mixing
it is absorbing water from the air relative to the humidity.
without adding water most juice will have 2-3 % minimum
water.water is added in most cases during production to
maintain consistency of product insuring quality.
the main ingredients of PG and VG is water.
regards
mike

Sorry mate, but the reason people add water is to thin it. High VG liquid has wicking issues in tanks. There are no issues dripping 100% VG, well it still is a little slow to wick.