The Lemo is a build only unit. The KST mini can use either coil heads or a build deck. Honestly, the Lemo is easier to build. The Kanger Subtank Mini has better fill options and airflow. I think the Lemo might have a slight edge in flavor.
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LOL. Define gobbledygook.
No, I'm referring to specific instances of variations in wire surface temperatures, thermal inbalances in a wound element. These zones which can vary and localize (become fixed or focused) as applied power is increased. Some areas remaining relatively colder, some extremely and exceedingly hot.
[But yes, I am primarily talking about these instances in the context of a microcoil which is already a compromised circuit in lieu of oxidation.]
My layman's assertion is based on simple observed and repeated observation that changes in wire tension affect resistance. Yes, insignificant with the minute input of carto-meter voltages. But doesn't it increase substantially as heat increases? Don't variations in surface oxidation or torching vary surface thermal conductivity? Don't such issues create heat anomalies which contribute to a winds overall resistance as power increases? Not a static point in time on a multi-meter. But in operation?
And please stop telling people contact coils don't work. They're used throughout many industries. Tell us why they don't produce as much vapor instead. You've already acknowledged that the geometric concentration of micro's lends to their efficiency over an open wind in an earlier post.
Finally I don't intend to make my contributions on this thread a physics paper. So lets please keep the answer straight up as I have above. The focus of this thread's been helping new vapers get through. Other threads have been started on this and abandoned. Few care.
Thanks cig.
Good luck.
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Sure, contact coils can be wound with too much bias angle causing excessive turn to turn compression in a coil. This sometimes causes delayed oxidation between the turns resulting in cold spots (electrical short circuits). Get enough of those and your coil will hotleg.
Changes in res caused by differences in winding tension is primarily due to varying diameters the turns. Wind with heavier tension (stress)...diameters remain smaller when tension is released; wind with lighter tension (stress)... diameters spring out larger when tension is released. It has to do with the internal molecular strain of the wire that remains after winding. And it's measurable with a cartometer if variations in tension are wide enough.
Yes, but for all intents and purposes it's unmeasurable once the coil reaches full oxidation (electrical isolation between the turns). I have never been able measure a difference in res between a cold coil and hot coil whether a spaced coil or a fully oxidized contact coil using a lab grade test bench meter with accuracy to .xxx ohms. I also have been unable to measure res differences between pre-torched and un-torched wire coils after full oxidation. This particular subject is something I don't bother noobs with as I have never seen it affect res on anything but rubber/silicone insulator wick heads where a pre-torched(oxidized) wire legs may not make good contact.
Never said that...EVER! Is this what you've finally resorted to...putting words into my mouth?
Do you believe that? I don't, and I have noted the superior efficiency and vapor production capacity of contact coils many times on this thread. Great for cloud chasers. My preference for spaced winds is do due to their superior wick lifespan and when used in combination with twisted wire their superior long term flavor production. Imo
Yes I have, see comment above.
Finally I don't intend to make my contributions on this thread a physics paper. So lets please keep the answer straight up as I have above. The focus of this thread's been helping new vapers get through. Other threads have been started on this and abandoned. Few care.
Thanks cig.
Good luck.
Yeah, I'm all about helping new vapers too. That's why I recommend tensioned spaced winds. Less fussy; more vaping.
Take care Mac.
You're right cig. Never said it…exactly.
Not resorting to anything. I was a bit confused by your above. It seems to be a contradiction. I think I understood what you were trying to say…but it sure leaves a heck of lot to the imagination. Darn does look like you're sayin' (inferring) there's something wrong with them??? With such a strong admonition? Don't it? I think that's what many, mebe most might surmise. So you'll forgive me, won't ya? If I did!
I'll do my best to try and be clearer and maybe I could count on you to not call my efforts explaining tensioned rebuilding gobbledygook. We're both tryin' to help folks out here bro, right? I got your back, you got mine. And we could both try and be a bit clearer, no?
For the record I don't have any objection to spaced winds either if the wire's properly prep'd (oxidation) and symmetry's good, users avoid a lot of frustration.
Thanks for validating some of the substance of my above answer. My message essentially that we build with balanced strain and symmetry is something I think we both support, regardless of how stated, or how we wind.
Appreciate that you've been of support to the cause cig even as conspicuously skeptical of some things.
Good luck.
Since I have no experience ..........figured I'd ask. Has anyone used Nichrome or Ni200 Nickel for their builds versus Kanthal?
Could these be used and if so, what would be suggested? Would either be less prone to hot legs and burning insulators/grommets when used in something like a PT or STM OCC?
Could these be used and if so, what would be suggested? Would either be less prone to hot legs and burning insulators/grommets when used in something like a PT or STM OCC?
Hi T, welcome back. Sent ya a PM (conversation) back in 1 May pointing to an article earlier in this thread...
What the heck causes hot spots?
Yes being used everywhere in vaporizers. I keep looking for its advantages and posted on this in recent days on the advanced tension thread with this post…
What do alternatives bring to the table?
It's all about strain. Any wire can be formed or tensioned into a contact coil. It's the distinct chemical composition of Kanthal as an alloy that yields important benefits to us in our vaporizers. For one, it's high resistivity which allows us to generate excellent thermal radiation with relatively small energy input. Also that it was designed to be a radiating element. The alumina layer it develops is an excellent thermal conductor and dissipates or distributes heat exceedingly well. To spell it out, properly prepared — it's temperature stable. Being ceramic it's very neutral to the juices that we vape. We cook in the stuff. And it serves to insulate the metal from interactions with juices and undue heat degradation.
All important factors to our vape which are very well served by Kanthal A-1. Best part new rebuilders can access these benefits very simply in 30 seconds or less with a pin vise.
Once the conductivity of a tensioned microcoil is optimized by this property of Kanthal to oxidize you get a proper complete circuit as was intended by its design.
It happens to be a very good one for our purposes.
Good luck.
Hey Mac - yes, got your PM and have rec'd a pin vise. Been toying with it and still trying to master it. I find it's hard to gauge coil count as one "turn" doesn't equal one coil, LOL. That said, upon loosening the vise, I need to remove a few coil turns to eliminate the bend point and I generally end up removing to damn many. Not sure how many extra coil turns I need to make a leg long enough to use on a PT or STM OCC. Time has also been against me so my experimentation allotment is limited. Still a work in progress....
De-winding, strain balance and turn counts…
Yep coil de-winding is unavoidable to strip that first starting turn. It was formed and not stretched. Often it takes 2/3 to marry up the strain with the rest. Likewise your finishing turn if it gets pulled away in this process. Easy to do. So starting out until you get the hang of it, I'd suggest spinning up almost double your count. Say 14 for 8 to give yourself some room for error and practice.
It takes a few turns to stabilize the wind. Beyond that every turn will be in precise strain balance. That is, unless you've let off in tension. Then separations may even be visible. Discard those winds. Start another. Wire is cheap. If you detect a separation from release of strain, keep winding! Just add more turns to complete your required count. As you gain confidence you rarely touch the last turn you wound. I always use this very precisely straight tensioned lead as the positive. All the turns next to it are likely to be as uniform to the bit.
An easy way to keep track of wind count is to put some kind of mark on your pin vise along the length of the shank. That will aid keeping tabs on rotation as you go. My vision's not great either. I'll shoot for the higher target of two. If I end up with a turn short, I can handle .05Ω under say. If you can't live with that, I'd strongly recommend an inexpensive desktop magnifier. Margin of error becomes a lot more critical as you drop ohms. Search on this thread for suggestions. There's a good and inexpensive one mentioned. It'll be very revealing to you as to what small variations in tension do to your wind. Short of that a hand magnifying glass is helpful on turn counts.
Putting just a little finger tension on most gauges, tweezing the end lead, releases some of the strain. This will cause it to disengage from the bit. Try it. You'll see what I mean. Simple way to de-wind. And it limits the risk of over tightening end turns.
If you overdo the unwinding you can match up the tension of the rest of the coil re-wrapping that end-turn back around with a light needle-nose plier or forceps. Try not to tho. This is a learned skill. When you gain the experience, you'll be able to use this to fix the exact exit point of the wire on the bit. This is useful both in Protanks and other atomizers as well as for different winds, like return or forward coils (half or full wraps).
Good luck T!
Yep coil de-winding is unavoidable to strip that first starting turn. It was formed and not stretched. Often it takes 2/3 to marry up the strain with the rest. Likewise your finishing turn if it gets pulled away in this process. Easy to do. So starting out until you get the hang of it, I'd suggest spinning up almost double your count. Say 14 for 8 to give yourself some room for error and practice.
It takes a few turns to stabilize the wind. Beyond that every turn will be in precise strain balance. That is, unless you've let off in tension. Then separations may even be visible. Discard those winds. Start another. Wire is cheap. If you detect a separation from release of strain, keep winding! Just add more turns to complete your required count. As you gain confidence you rarely touch the last turn you wound. I always use this very precisely straight tensioned lead as the positive. All the turns next to it are likely to be as uniform to the bit.
An easy way to keep track of wind count is to put some kind of mark on your pin vise along the length of the shank. That will aid keeping tabs on rotation as you go. My vision's not great either. I'll shoot for the higher target of two. If I end up with a turn short, I can handle .05Ω under say. If you can't live with that, I'd strongly recommend an inexpensive desktop magnifier. Margin of error becomes a lot more critical as you drop ohms. Search on this thread for suggestions. There's a good and inexpensive one mentioned. It'll be very revealing to you as to what small variations in tension do to your wind. Short of that a hand magnifying glass is helpful on turn counts.
Putting just a little finger tension on most gauges, tweezing the end lead, releases some of the strain. This will cause it to disengage from the bit. Try it. You'll see what I mean. Simple way to de-wind. And it limits the risk of over tightening end turns.
If you overdo the unwinding you can match up the tension of the rest of the coil re-wrapping that end-turn back around with a light needle-nose plier or forceps. Try not to tho. This is a learned skill. When you gain the experience, you'll be able to use this to fix the exact exit point of the wire on the bit. This is useful both in Protanks and other atomizers as well as for different winds, like return or forward coils (half or full wraps).
Good luck T!
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One trick is to mark the vise with red nail polish so you can just count the red lines-I used the pin vise for awhile but then was luck enough to obtain a Cigamajig
Channel, have you gotten good enough with the Cigamajig that you don't have to unwind starter wraps?
I think so. I made that friend of mine (the one that thinks it is too tedious to build)a bag of 10 and she is amazed that she is still using the first one months later. The bag of ten that I made her came from an original set I made her and I was rather amazed when taking them apart that the insulators showed no sign of heat and burn.
Of course I get the bend where the wire goes over the wood and onto the bit, but that is where I cut it and I always have enough left after cutting to install properly
Before I cut it I remove it from Jig and put it on a mandrel and then straighten legs and cut both ends. My wish now is for a bigger mandrel because I am going to be making bigger coils for my Lemo (PS my mandrels are the parts that came with the Hobby Lobby wire winding kit)
Congrats on your deligence Chanel. All but just a few of the peeps who have tested the Cigamajig V2 coil winder are still using it as their primary winding tool. It does take a little practice to get the first turn of a tensioned contact coil to be as perfect as the rest though. Like many, I despise having to unwind the irregular starter turns of coils wound on pin vises, gizmos etc....I lose count too easy....that's one of primary reasons that drove me to develope the tool in the first place and something I enjoy seeing peeps benefit from.
To straighten the leg that bends over the end of the tool I use my finger to press/hold it against the end of the tool while bending it straight. I press it firmly right at the top where the bend starts and gently lift the leg up. I used to use pliers to straighten it but with a little practice I was able to do it without. When you get your Lemo Drop you will need a little longer legs for that build and will have to learn to straighten that one leg eventually.
Thanks for being my piggy and posting your experiences with the V2 Chanel! You're pure gold imo.
I still use my V2 and love it!!!! Yes it took a slight learning curve, but I can now whip out nice coils in minutes. 
I still use my V2 and love it!!!! Yes it took a slight learning curve, but I can now whip out nice coils in minutes.
That's great Clnire, glad to see you have become comfortable with it. Golden!
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Good index for finding your comfort zone sub-Ω…
…is @danwldr's contribution on thevapersden...
Sub Ohm Vaping Chart
This will give ya an indication what a straight mech will deliver at 4.2 (max) with your wind.
To make some better use of this once you know is to have the power median if you're vapin' a box. For that steam-engine.com has an excellent round up of some of the most popular/available devices in their modrange webap…
Mod range | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators
There you'll find the APV's spec capabilities and sweet spot to better help you fix your res target.
Good luck all.
…is @danwldr's contribution on thevapersden...
Sub Ohm Vaping Chart
This will give ya an indication what a straight mech will deliver at 4.2 (max) with your wind.
To make some better use of this once you know is to have the power median if you're vapin' a box. For that steam-engine.com has an excellent round up of some of the most popular/available devices in their modrange webap…
Mod range | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators
There you'll find the APV's spec capabilities and sweet spot to better help you fix your res target.
Good luck all.
Do I hear crickets chirping again? Seems like the days of Protanks are gone....sad....they were the cat's meow in their hayday though weren't they? The RTAs available today have really made the likes of PTs obsolete I'm guessing. More and more folks are seeing larger box mods and gigantic tanks as something to flaunt rather than hide. Seems to be catching on as a biker thing too....like huge leather wallets attached to a belt loop with a chain and leather cigarette cases hanging from the belt. Whatever, it's all good I guess.
It's been a fun ride here on this thread. Made some good friends here. Learned a lot from some great peeps but my time here is over....... take care you all!
Cig
It's been a fun ride here on this thread. Made some good friends here. Learned a lot from some great peeps but my time here is over....... take care you all!
Cig
Wait just a minute there Cig you got too much valuable information to leave, you can't just up and do that!
This thread hasn't been merely about Protanks for quite some time. It's been about helping new vapers get quickly to an efficient wind and the proper building mechanics to make proper electrical circuits.
Or we can just forget the data is here. Keep it our little secret.
Good luck all.
Or we can just forget the data is here. Keep it our little secret.
Good luck all.
This thread had been the secret to me building great coils. And I, for one, still use my protank/evod/davide/H2/T3S s regularly. Bottom coil kanger heads. Although I have branched out a bit, these still work great for me and my vaping style.
I think there has been some frustration with lost information from the new forum software and the work that originally went into that original valuable information. But I won't loose sight of how I got where I am today with my antiquated equipment. How successful and satisfying it still is, and I have everyone here to thank.
I think there has been some frustration with lost information from the new forum software and the work that originally went into that original valuable information. But I won't loose sight of how I got where I am today with my antiquated equipment. How successful and satisfying it still is, and I have everyone here to thank.
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