Question about SMT components

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suprtrkr

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Hi all. I'm working on a mod design, and I have never used SMT FETs before. The mod I am trying to design will have three: one for firing, one for reverse polarity battery protection and one for a power off switch. They are all in SO-8 packaging. My question is, can I put three SO-8 packages on a SO-24 host board, or two on a SO-16? Will they fit, I mean, or have heat problems? Obviously the leads will have to be different; they're not going to common much. My eyes are no longer good enough, nor my hands steady enough, to do a handheld Dremel tool on a copper clad board and come up with .5mm contact pads. Does somebody make host boards for 2-3 SO-8s?
 

Gummy Bare

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Woh, that is cool.... and pretty much flew over my head at the same time. What's the advantages of using a circuit board instead of the common way for wiring up unregulated box mods? Why does it need 3 mosfets?

Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm by far now anything near an electrical engineer. I did some random board soldering as a kid in school though.

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suprtrkr

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Woh, that is cool.... and pretty much flew over my head at the same time. What's the advantages of using a circuit board instead of the common way for wiring up unregulated box mods? Why does it need 3 mosfets?

Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm by far now anything near an electrical engineer. I did some random board soldering as a kid in school though.

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One for system power on/off, one for the fire switch and one for reverse polarity protection in case an idiot-- your humble servant, of course-- puts the battery in backwards, to prevent frying the other two. The contemplated mod will still be unregulated, I only want to use the FETs as switches. The advantage is size. You've seen the gigantic, clunky 15amp pushbuttons they use on box mods, right? They have to be that big to carry the current, which can exceed 20amps, even at 3.7 volts, if you go deep enough subohm. Using FETs as the switches, the fire button and on/off slider become, effectively, digital 0s and 1s, and do not carry any current; it's just a signal to tell the FET to turn off or on. Therefore they can be tiny components, rated at only a handful of milliamps. Plus, they are now making FETs in SO-8 (surface mount) packaging rated at upwards of *50* amps. And tiny; SO-8 is like 3 x 5 x 1.5mm. Three or four of them stacked up-- not that they can be used like that-- are less than half the size of that gigantic pushbutton. Clearer, I hope?
 
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suprtrkr

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Some designs/boards use multiple mosfets to decrease the voltage drop across the fets. While the resistance is low (milliohms) it is still a power loss and the fets do heat up. Paralleling them lets you run higher currents. I think these folks are usually running >>60 watts.
Hadn't thought of that, but it makes sense. I don't, or didn't, intend to go that high. But I'll remember in case I decide to.
 

Gummy Bare

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Some designs/boards use multiple mosfets to decrease the voltage drop across the fets. While the resistance is low (milliohms) it is still a power loss and the fets do heat up. Paralleling them lets you run higher currents. I think these folks are usually running >>60 watts.
Yeah, I've seen people stack the fets on box mods without the board too.

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Gummy Bare

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One for system power on/off, one for the fire switch and one for reverse polarity protection in case an idiot-- your humble servant, of course-- puts the battery in backwards, to prevent frying the other two. The contemplated mod will still be unregulated, I only want to use the FETs as switches. The advantage is size. You've seen the gigantic, clunky 15amp pushbuttons they use on box mods, right? They have to be that big to carry the current, which can exceed 20amps, even at 3.7 volts, if you go deep enough subohm. Using FETs as the switches, the fire button and on/off slider become, effectively, digital 0s and 1s, and do not carry any current; it's just a signal to tell the FET to turn off or on. Therefore they can be tiny components, rated at only a handful of milliamps. Plus, they are now making FETs in SO-8 (surface mount) packaging rated at upwards of *50* amps. And tiny; SO-8 is like 3 x 5 x 1.5mm. Three or four of them stacked up-- not that they can be used like that-- are less than half the size of that gigantic pushbutton. Clearer, I hope?
Intresting. I never thought to look at the amp rating of the slide ON\OFF switches I picked up for projects. I've always paid attention to the momentary firing switches amps, and always knew a mosfet was a good idea to use there. I got the slide switch to rest on the inside of the box, so I could take the battery door off and flip the switch to kill any power from going to the atty while I have the mod in my pocket or backpack.

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dc99

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Most of the time I put the on/off switches on the gate of the fet. Doesn't actually cut the power but it wont let it fire. I have driven this board pretty hard and it barley gets warm.
I have stacked two 3034s but this board is smaller than two of them. Pretty cheap if you think about the ease of just soldering your wires and your done. With a 3D printed sled you can get two 18650s in a G-box and theres room for a volt meter and this board to the side of the sled
 

suprtrkr

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Most of the time I put the on/off switches on the gate of the fet. Doesn't actually cut the power but it wont let it fire. I have driven this board pretty hard and it barley gets warm.
I have stacked two 3034s but this board is smaller than two of them. Pretty cheap if you think about the ease of just soldering your wires and your done. With a 3D printed sled you can get two 18650s in a G-box and theres room for a volt meter and this board to the side of the sled

Hhhmmm... I was concerned with the gate current because I was planning to use P-chans and high-side switching. That's a tiny current, I know, but it is nonetheless a draw and I worried about leaving the mod batteried up for long periods. Going the P-chan route the switch can't be in the gate circuit as low rail or zero volts turns it on, not off. Thus, my thinking was, if you series 2 P-chans you could use the upper to shut off the power to the lower; but thinking again, you haven't gained anything because the upper P-chan also needs voltage to stay closed. You could effectively shut off power to the whole mod by low-side switching an N-chan between the battery negative rail and the rest of the mod, though, and then switching the gate would work. That would shut off even the tiny gate drain from the fire FET. Ah well, I'm not a EE and I am still thinking. Thanks for the idea.
 

suprtrkr

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Intresting. I never thought to look at the amp rating of the slide ON\OFF switches I picked up for projects. I've always paid attention to the momentary firing switches amps, and always knew a mosfet was a good idea to use there. I got the slide switch to rest on the inside of the box, so I could take the battery door off and flip the switch to kill any power from going to the atty while I have the mod in my pocket or backpack.

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If you put a slider in the main current path that fires the atty, you're lucky you haven't fried it :)
 

dc99

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Hhhmmm... I was concerned with the gate current because I was planning to use P-chans and high-side switching. That's a tiny current, I know, but it is nonetheless a draw and I worried about leaving the mod batteried up for long periods. Going the P-chan route the switch can't be in the gate circuit as low rail or zero volts turns it on, not off. Thus, my thinking was, if you series 2 P-chans you could use the upper to shut off the power to the lower; but thinking again, you haven't gained anything because the upper P-chan also needs voltage to stay closed. You could effectively shut off power to the whole mod by low-side switching an N-chan between the battery negative rail and the rest of the mod, though, and then switching the gate would work. That would shut off even the tiny gate drain from the fire FET. Ah well, I'm not a EE and I am still thinking. Thanks for the idea.
If you want to use P-fet he has a board that uses duel p-channels and a 3V cut-off. Should handle anything you throw at it. David is a member on here so maybe he will post a link to that board. I couldn't find it. There are times where its just more practical to use P but its parts are so much easier to get within spec in an N-channel. For boxes I just prefer the N boards.
 

suprtrkr

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If you want to use P-fet he has a board that uses duel p-channels and a 3V cut-off. Should handle anything you throw at it. David is a member on here so maybe he will post a link to that board. I couldn't find it. There are times where its just more practical to use P but its parts are so much easier to get within spec in an N-channel. For boxes I just prefer the N boards.
Nice indeed. Thank you very much! I'll dig him up and ask.
 

Gummy Bare

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If you put a slider in the main current path that fires the atty, you're lucky you haven't fried it :)
I haven't set one up yet, but have picked up a few sliders wanting to add a kill switch to the circut of a mod. where would be the best place in the circut to place a slider to function how I want, but not have it carry a heavy current ?

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suprtrkr

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I haven't set one up yet, but have picked up a few sliders wanting to add a kill switch to the circut of a mod. where would be the best place in the circut to place a slider to function how I want, but not have it carry a heavy current ?

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First, I am not a EE, or a serious modder type. This question would be more properly addressed by those wiser than I in this forum by making a separate thread for it. But the basics are simple: If your mod is pure mechanical, that is, raw power from from battery (or batteries, series or parallel) through the firing button to the atty and back to battery, then there is no place a small-current-capacity kill switch will work. In that mod, if you want a kill switch, it would have to be rated the same amps as the firing circuit.

If you are using a N-channel FET to control the firing circuit a small-amp switch-- tiny, really, it carries only a uA current, mostly a voltage signal-- can be placed between battery positive and the FET gate. A N-chan turns "on" when the gate it high (+V or batt pos) and "off" when the gate is low (-V or batt neg). This is the exact same lead you will use for the firing button to the FET to fire the mod. Just series the slider with the pushbutton and it doesn't matter which one comes first. When the switch is on *and* the button pressed, the mod will fire. When either switch is in the off state, it will not. (WARNING: an N-chan FET requires a pull-down resistor to make sure the gate voltage is really low, and the FET completely off. Otherwise the mod might fire, or stay partly energized, unintentionally. This sounds odd, I know, but it's just nomenclature. An FET is not really a "switch" per se. More like a variable resistor. When it's supposed to be "off", resistance is really high and current can't flow. When it is "on," resistance is much lower and current can flow. But it's not a sharp cut off, there are shades of off and on with a FET.) Please seek proper guidance from those wiser than I on exactly how to wire it and the proper resistance values and so forth.

If you want to use a P-chan FET for the fire switch, I have not figured out where to put the switch. A P-chan is backwards; it is "off" when the gate is high. This requires a SPDT (on/off) pushbutton, with +V to one terminal and -V to the other; the common leg then being taken to the gate of the FET. You wire the button so the gate is +V when the button is not pushed and -V when it is. Placing a switch anywhere in that circuit will turn the FET on, not off. The only dodge I have figured for a small amp shut off switch is to series an second, N-chan, FET between the atty and the battery -V side. I don't like that idea, because I am an electrician, not a EE, and I hate low-side switching. In the electrician game, putting the switch between the load and the ground return is a big no-no. It works just fine-- series is series-- but it's viewed as unsafe because it leaves the load energized all the time and any ground path-- like through your friendly electrician-- will turn the load on. Admittedly, this is a much larger problem with a 600V, 3Phase AC, 150SHP motor than an atomizer running at <10VDC. But it just feels wrong, and I have a hard time getting over it. It also does not obviate the tiny, tiny uA current the P-chan is using to stay closed. And adding the N-chan is low side switching anyway. Why add another one when one will do? You could put the slider in the battery negative feed of the pushbutton, but the gate might then "slide around" and get close enough to -v to turn on anyway. Any kind of trickle current to the gate to prevent it would prevent it from turning on at all, ever. So far, I haven't figured it out. Looks like my choices are N-chan low side switch or live without a a slider, or add an extra, low side, FET just for the slider and make the high-side FET redundant.
 

Gummy Bare

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Thanks for the info. That was quite an explanation (a lot went over my head there too). I've actually seen circut diagrams with the slider switch wired a few different ways. One being in between the positive of the battery and the 510, and another being in between the gate of the mosfet, and the firing switch (with the mosfet having 15k resistor from the gate lead to the source lead).

The first way doesn't sound safe, but the slider being in the middle of the mosfet gate and firing switch seems like it should work okay. Not really sure though since I'm so new to this kinda stuff.

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suprtrkr

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Thanks for the info. That was quite an explanation (a lot went over my head there too). I've actually seen circut diagrams with the slider switch wired a few different ways. One being in between the positive of the battery and the 510, and another being in between the gate of the mosfet, and the firing switch (with the mosfet having 15k resistor from the gate lead to the source lead).

The first way doesn't sound safe, but the slider being in the middle of the mosfet gate and firing switch seems like it should work okay. Not really sure though since I'm so new to this kinda stuff.

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Yeah, that sounds like an N-chan FET setup. And the slider would be perfectly safe between the battery and the atty if it is rated for the firing circuit ampere loading.
 

Gummy Bare

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Yeah, that sounds like an N-chan FET setup. And the slider would be perfectly safe between the battery and the atty if it is rated for the firing circuit ampere loading.
Yeah, I doubt the slider switchs I have will work between the atty and battery. Not with the super low subohm dripper setups I rock. I'd feel safer putting in in between the mosfet and firing switch.

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