ReadyXWick - Round 2

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57chilicat

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Thank you so much Rudy and Mac! Someone gave me a handful of luer needles but I can't tell one size from the other so I'm gonna hit Mr. Chili up for a drill bit! I refuse to give up on this! Well maybe for just a short while! I rewicked with my KGD because I just HAVE to squonk!
 
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rudy4653

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Thank you so much Rudy and Mac! Someone gave me a handful of luer needles but I can't tell one size from the other so I'm gonna hit Mr. Chili up for a drill bit! I refuse to give up on this! Well maybe for just a short while! I rewicked with my KGD because I just HAVE to squonk!

Don't give up on the Rxw, it's great stuff and worth the effort. Once you have it dialed in it's set it and forget it! :)
I run a single wick for months. Just dry burn often, turns white & clean over and over.
 

rudy4653

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As stated in earlier threads, once you make your 1/16" coil and mount, cut your RxW at an angel so it's somewhat pointed, little dab of juice to moisten, then SCREW into coil the same direction as the wind, like screwing a screw into a nut. Much easier than trying to push it through.
 

MacTechVpr

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Hi Mac,
What is your opinion on the difference in performance, flavor and heating properties between doing a single wire coil vs. twisted wire coil? I'm interested in your scientific insights! Advantage of one over the other?

I, too, am interested.

Wanted to take a few and get back to ya fellas. As I told Matty on the Tensioned Next thread, it's time to flip this problem over on its head and look at its bottom. Were so used to looking at resistance and power as an index that we fail to consider how it's utilized. IOW, the net performance that were getting. It is all about the temperature. But not the overall output of the wire or even the build overall. It is about effectively directing the wind's energy towards phase transition.

First inclination might be to just double up a wire spec, say 32AWG. With half the res we should see more performance. But that actually would produce a cooler vape even at half the resistance as @TheKiwi (Thank You!) explained in some detail in the blog post Coils: Do thicker wires ACTUALLY give you a warmer vape?

In conclusion, using thicker gauge wires DO NOT naturally lead to a warmer vape. On the contrary, there are far more cases when using a thicker gauge wires will lead to a cooler vape. THE ONLY way that thicker gauge wires can give you a warmer vape, is if you overcome the increase in heat capacity of the coil by exponentially increasing the wattage supplied to the build (e.g. lowering the resistance of the build to draw more current).

The only thing that matters I believe is the thermal zone we create at the interior of the wind. And a car analogy is helpful here — the contact patch. Nowhere else. It's where the rubber meets the road. Where we get real traction. And for our purposes, the most important, the contact surface.

There's a total mis-appreciation of what that is though and consequently an overestimation which leaves us constantly short and seeking more power. And I find this really curious if you read my above analogy that it's not obvious to all, only the contact of wire to wick is meaningful here. So when I look at the numbers from a steam-engine.com for example, I find some helpful others misleading.

For example, in comparing wire for the surface area of a twisted pair and a parallel (dual coil), or round vs. twisted, there is a difference in surface area. It's not clear how the numbers are derived; but to me, the surface area of the threads is the same. S-E computes the overall circumference of a twisted pair AS IF it were equivalent to a wire twice it's diameter, e.g. 26 and 32 AWG but this is in my estimation incorrect. The available surface area is no more than there physically is. This extrapolation suggests that twisted presents the same surface area as a comparable straight wire. It does not.

To my thinking because of the rotation of twisted the surface of one wire is presented then alternatively the surface area for two. You have an interspersed contact with the wick which effectively reduces the contact area by roughly 25%. Perhaps my logic is flawed here but I don't think I'm too far off from the mark. That said, straight wire of comparable mass must present more contact with it's more contiguous surface. Likewise flat-wire having the same advantage over round wire.

So the popular legend that twisted pair is the automatic ticket to better flavor or production (as having more surface area) seems unfounded based on the straight-up numbers (it's a matter of relevant calculation approach). And fat, wide, spread all suffer from the downside of inefficiency based on lack of contact concentration relative to essentially wind height.

However, what if you could lay down the flatter context of the thinner gauge? Why then you'd have a parallel wind.

And why does this matter?

We vent a lot of our power on thick wire builds. That's why we must increase amps as @TheWiki explained. So there's a scale of diminishing return here for actual vaporization which decreases as the ratio of loop circumference increases compared to the actual contact area in mm2. The greater the contact patch relative to overall wire dimension the more potential thermal conductance. So understanding the contact mechanics may help us make better decisions in our wire/wind choices regarding overall production and what is most conducive to either density or dispersion. That is my perspective.

Good luck all.

:)
 
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rudy4653

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Thank you for the detailed info. Very well explained, I think.
So basically, more winds = more surface area= better vapor. Better off using finer gauge wire with smaller diameter and more wraps than thick gauge with less wraps. Twisted no advantage over single wire.
Seems to make sense as I used to go 7/8 wraps of 28g then went to 8/9 wraps of 29g to come out to about the same resistance and found a slight difference in flavor and vapor for the better.
I then tried twisted and really didn't notice any improvement so thinking of going back to my old faithful single wire coil.
Thanks for your input!
 
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MacTechVpr

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Yep, generally. Twisted not necessarily an advantage. But why? Going to use the analogy of a swimmer here. To go fast in the water one needs to keep the head down. As little body mass as possible above the waterline. We take advantage of buoyancy reducing drag the less we fight gravity to take advantage of it. When we build above the water line with our wire we reduce the contact surface presented to the liquid. The more contact surface is what we're after. It's the means to vaporization. The tighter the match of contact surface to wick (as you know using 1/16") the more effective the thermal transfer. Especially with mated surfaces like the alumina of the coil to the alumina of ceramic fiber! Yet if we build a lot of heat capacity with bigger winds and reduce contact surface…an example would be by the spacing twisting creates in a pair...the vaporization zone is less as a ratio over the wind length. We end up appearing to have more production from dispersion (above water) while actually vaporizing less. But it's more like flailing arms than smooth propulsion.

Rudy I'm a hoarder, I want both, clouds and density. Volume and flavor. And I love fat wire and multi-wire winds for the potential surface coverage. My quick and dirty right now is 24 AWG. By thinking contact patch, and the math is easy, we can really be slick and blow past meatier looking builds enjoying the vape all the way. Leave 'em at the lights bro.

Good luck.

:)

 

rudy4653

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Yep, generally. Twisted not necessarily an advantage. But why? Going to use the analogy of a swimmer here. To go fast in the water one needs to keep the head down. As little body mass as possible above the waterline. We take advantage of buoyancy reducing drag the less we fight gravity to take advantage of it. When we build above the water line with our wire we reduce the contact surface presented to the liquid. The more contact surface is what we're after. It's the means to vaporization. The tighter the match of contact surface to wick (as you know using 1/16") the more effective the thermal transfer. Especially with mated surfaces like the alumina of the coil to the alumina of ceramic fiber! Yet if we build a lot of heat capacity with bigger winds and reduce contact surface…an example would be by the spacing twisting creates in a pair...the vaporization zone is less as a ratio over the wind length. We end up appearing to have more production from dispersion (above water) while actually vaporizing less. But it's more like flailing arms than smooth propulsion.

Rudy I'm a hoarder, I want both, clouds and density. Volume and flavor. And I love fat wire and multi-wire winds for the potential surface coverage. My quick and dirty right now is 24 AWG. By thinking contact patch, and the math is easy, we can really be slick and blow past meatier looking builds enjoying the vape all the way. Leave 'em at the lights bro.

Good luck.

:)
Got it.
Translating to golf terms - Effortless power vs. Powerless effort. :)
 

RattlerX

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Hmmm i miss rxw. Problem is, I have a 28g twisted TMC running KGD that im attached to... (.3-.4ohms) and these current coils just arent positioned right to throw some 2mm rxw in there... but i have some 3mm, and getting the woodvils soon, so i can use my extra nuppins :D

anyone got a killer setup of dual twisted with the 3mm? pics would be appreciated... last time I tried it, i tested the coils with kgd before throwing some 3mm rxw in... I had too many wraps... i think it was 7 wraps around a 2.5mm rod. Slow heatup @ 0.7ohms... I wanna shoot for .3-.4 ohms... so probably 4 wraps?

Tails are a little long in this one but this is the set-up in 6 of the 7 Nuppins I run. twisted 26ga ~.4ohms

WJRvrCWl.jpg
 

built4feel

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@MacTechVpr , I finally gathered up some different wire: 24 & 26 awg kanthal a1, along with some 26awg Nichome 80 for experimenting.

Well, what can I say, your advice is much appreciated! Particularlly 24awg @ 2.5mm with 8 wraps. Its really the same, if not better, than the twisted 28awg. I just rebuilt it, so I can't imagine what its gonna perform like when the rXw breaks in!

Now, I wont have to force myself to rewick everyday, so thank you! Also, this is my first time really using the 3mm.. So far, I can tell it outperforms the 2mm rXw. Its great. Also, I am noticing the 24awg is not crackling and spitting juice everywhere like the twisted build, and this build is a bit lower (0.3, compared to 0.34). Although, the warmth is relatively the same, if not cooler...like you said, lol. Which is a plus, since the twisted build (with cotton) was getting hot really quick.

Thanks for the hint, MTV.


Happy memorial day to all!
 

MacTechVpr

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@MacTechVpr , I finally gathered up some different wire: 24 & 26 awg kanthal a1, along with some 26awg Nichome 80 for experimenting.

Well, what can I say, your advice is much appreciated! Particularlly 24awg @ 2.5mm with 8 wraps. Its really the same, if not better, than the twisted 28awg. I just rebuilt it, so I can't imagine what its gonna perform like when the rXw breaks in!

Now, I wont have to force myself to rewick everyday, so thank you! Also, this is my first time really using the 3mm.. So far, I can tell it outperforms the 2mm rXw. Its great. Also, I am noticing the 24awg is not crackling and spitting juice everywhere like the twisted build, and this build is a bit lower (0.3, compared to 0.34). Although, the warmth is relatively the same, if not cooler...like you said, lol. Which is a plus, since the twisted build (with cotton) was getting hot really quick.

Thanks for the hint, MTV.


Happy memorial day to all!

Thx b4f and a HMD to ya too. I gather you caught my post above emphasizing contact area. It's been a serious exercise for me apart from tension winding for new vapers. The wide contact flat wire has been my go to for quick results in a t.m.c. but not something I encouraged for new rebuilders. For two years I've had a fine relationship with twisted pair. Frankly I gotta admit right here and now despite all the fanfare and inexplicable momentum to popularize it…it's old school.

From what we know about the concentration efficiency of microcoils and how this can be practically perfected with strain and oxidation, hands down it's about contact surface for maximum production. Short of that as all the cloud aficionados raved about fat wire and correctly…it's all in the patch.

Ceramic fiber is the only media I've found that actually improves with time like the good brew you put through it.

:D

Good luck all.

full
 

MacTechVpr

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Re: The end of microcoils?

Y'all might want to look at Dr. Farsalinos' interview regarding his recently completed study's findings.

An advanced somewhat technical discussion, I am extremely pleased to see some very knowledgeable folks speak out regarding some of Dr. Farsalinos' more controversial remarks on the thread, LOL...The end of microcoils?

I'm most concerned as well that the specifications of the vaporizing element itself weren't clearly defined…in a scientific study about vaporization. With all this talk of metals, torching, dry firing being bad what the heck are we talkin' about? But hey, that's just me. My most recent contribution there...

Nor can we discern that from this interview with Dr. Farsalinos. It is unclear to me how any metal off-gassing could bypass a uniform A2O3 deposition of Kanthal. That would infer that the alumina is being compromised at extremely low temp's (contrary to its specs). Considering that in normal operation (no hot spots, or exposed wire) of a properly oxidized KA1 wind vaporization should stabilize at/below transition temperature as long as the wind is thermally stable and there is adequate transfer to product flow.

A thermally stable wind is what would then be indicated? No?

Kanthal was designed as a heating element. Its oxidation ensures its durability and resistance to corrosion. As acknowledged by Dr. Fasalinos ceramic insulates (isolates) the base metal/s deterring metallic oxidation of the vaped product. Such a wire/wind not properly oxidized would then exhibit all the primary metal exposure as the alternatives, to both product and the airstream.

So shouldn't we be pulse-annealing all our Kanthal winds in lieu of torching? To properly optimize the winds thermal effectiveness, stability and for the presumptive safety reasons concerning metallic exposure.

Instead it's inferred we shouldn't be torching our coils at all without an alternative. For Kanthal, relegating it to the same potentials of metallic exposure as every other wire variant. I'm not dispensing with the utility of the latter merely pointing out the difference in potentials for KA1's best use.

My reasoning then would be that Kanthal was not used or considered. And not cited per any summaries I've seen yet. And then you're right we don't know what metals are being referred to. And if the coil is what remains "one of the big unknowns" why not address that first and foremost.

I agree with you AT we need to oxidize KA1 and a simple process we all need.

Good luck.

:)
 
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MacTechVpr

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24awg kanthal, 8 turns, .3 ohms. Third setup that I've put this build in.
View attachment 460450

YAWZA!
Gizmo, huh? Don't forget to oxidize those babies. They will run hotter than the average bear without it and tend to gunk faster. Finally getting to some advanced disc on this on the Tension Next thread and obviously due to recent developments I posted about above.

G'luck b4f, great weekend.

:)
 
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built4feel

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YAWZA!
Gizmo, huh? Don't forget to oxidize those babies. They will run hotter than the average bear without it and tend to gunk faster. Finally getting to some advanced disc on this on the Tension Next thread and obviously due to recent developments I posted about above.

G'luck b4f, great weekend.

:)
No gizmo this time. I've been using the coil master. Its a little bit easier than the gizmo. That set of coils was already oxidized, or at least I thought. Is there a certain color I should shoot for? Sometimes I get the blue or darker shades almost immediately, but this time around the coils took a little more time of short pulses and cooling to get them to start glow ing simutainuosly from the centers and out. At that point I was ready to thread in the wonderful weaved wick. Hopefully I can see them oxidized better after a dry burn later.


You've got me curious about that thread now. I'll have to check it out..

Good weekend to u too, thanks!
 
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MacTechVpr

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No gizmo this time. I've been using the coil master. Its a little bit easier than the gizmo. That set of coils was already oxidized, or at least I thought. Is there a certain color I should shoot for? Sometimes I get the blue or darker shades almost immediately, but this time around the coils took a little more time of short pulses and cooling to get them to start glow ing simutainuosly from the centers and out. At that point I was ready to thread in the wonderful weaved wick. Hopefully I can see them oxidized better after a dry burn later.


You've got me curious about that thread now. I'll have to check it out..

Good weekend to u too, thanks!

Kanthal oxidation is why I quit. An important part of why I decided to make a contribution to this forum. Having studied goings on here and a great deal of science as an investor, I found alumina a very favorable component to the vape. Both Kanthal's oxidation layer and 3M's fiber. Frankly were it not for these, I would not have quit. My only doubt, being very skeptical about whether contact coils could work is whether and how they could be insulated. I knew about strain but never believed folks would go out of their way to buy a dedicated instrument for it. I favored tensioning on screws (symmetrical open winds). So I introduced strain as a hand wind method. Except my daughter's an artist (sculptor) and she kept reminding me just how easy a pin vise is to use. And here we are. Comparing coilers which don't impart tension, that require far more work to achieve contact and adhesion. There is no comparison. We are after the thermally stable metal insulated solution.

Coilers like the microcoil itself which is so misunderstood throughout the world favors form at the expense of function.

Until Kanthal alternatives are viable, equally diverse in their production, stability, security, economy and plain old how do we do it for the average new vaperwhich they are not…I will mentor and advocate for the straight up electrical fundamentals with old faithful Kanthal.

I know folks are listening and glad they are. We need a million more right now getting a satisfying and secure vape.

Good luck all.

:)

p.s. I have written about low voltage progression pulsing on the Tension Next, Protank Micro threads as well as here. Most users making moderate coils ~1.8Ω will easily if not incidentally oxidize standard Kanthal if tension wound. The hardest part of curing a contact coil or making one from a spaced wind is closing the gaps, or you will get hot spots. Dispensing with the need for compression, high-heat torching and high voltage annealing to achieve contact, strain accomplishes this precisely in seconds. Ease of use to achieve less is well…less. What can I say? :)
 
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