Research claims vape nic more addicting than cig nic

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DaveSignal

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I just can't see that happening. It's exactly like deciding that since you like filet mignon, the .69/lb hamburger would be a good idea. :facepalm: Or a Krystal/WhiteCastle.

Or even, deciding that since you like a particular restaurant's food, to go raid their dumpster. :facepalm: I concede it's possible that a never-smoked vaper might *try* a cigarette... and if they don't throw up, they'll probably feel like it!

Andria
I don't see it happening either. Which is exactly why I don't think it matters if vaping creates a dependency. Cigarette smoking rates are at an all-time low. vaping is not a gateway to smoking. Thats the important thing that should be clearly evident by now. So the argument that nicotine is addictive is not relevant.
 

mcclintock

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    When I transitioned to vaping, it took a long time and I felt like I was withdrawing from something even with the nicotine itself being replaced. Overall I'd say the relaxative effect of pure nicotine is a quarter that of cig smoke at best. Now I'm using less nicotine not out of a desire to, but by feeling like I don't like it that much. Or at least, that I really dislike getting too much, more than I mind sometimes getting not that much.

    However, even if I were to suppose the pure nic is as effective, cigs tend to push my nicotine level higher than would be the case if it was controllable.
     
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    Vaslovik

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    There is new research about addiction saying that it's not so much the substance that causes addiction, but rather that the addict has no solid personal connections to anyone in his/her life and so becomes deeply involved with something else, drugs, alcohol, food, sex, etc, and fixates on that to compensate for a lack of connection to other people in a positive way.

    Article here:
    The Likely Cause of Addiction Has Been Discovered, and It Is Not What You Think | Johann Hari

    Rats offered a drug that starts with the letter C in their water bottle will use it until they die of it, when alone and in a depressing environment, but rats who have a social network of other rats and a good environment won't touch it. So I think this whole addictive nicotine business is a straw man argument used by those who hate vaping because they are very unhappy people to start with and just plain need something to hate and be against. Of course it's also used by BT and big Pharma, who are just out to corner the market on nicotine.
     

    CarolT

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    I don't know about vaping being more or less addictive than smoking, but nicotine is addictive in vapor, at least to me. Inhaling it directly into my lungs makes me feel good. I am addicted to it. So what? Why is that a problem? I think that regulation should be fought by showing that nicotine is not significantly harmful and possibly can even help prevent certain neurological diseases. But I don't think an argument that nicotine addiction does not really exist is going to be a successful retort against regulators, especially with so many people dependent on inhaling nicotine.
    Why is that a problem? Because endorsing their lies helps their propaganda war, that's why it's a problem. For comparison, here's a real addict.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Gk-njfY5TKQ
     

    DaveSignal

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    Why is that a problem? Because endorsing their lies helps their propaganda war, that's why it's a problem. For comparison, here's a real addict.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Gk-njfY5TKQ
    Thats an extreme example, but most of the world's addicts are dependent on nicotine, caffiene, or alcohol... the later being quite serious. There are also behavioral addictions such as exercise, sex, or gambling. Some of these behaviors release natural endorphins. But saying that dependency means the big H is wrong. All of the dependencies that I mentioned are real addictions.

    ETA: This is falling off-track. Redefining 'addiction' to mean H is falling into the propaganda lie. Nicotine is not H. At the dosages we vape and without the carcinogens in tobacco, there is no significant health issue from the nicotine alone. Vaping is not creating new smokers. Therefore, nicotine addiction has no relevancy concerning regulation.
     
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    KattMamma

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    DaveSignal

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    If you had said "SHOULD" have no relevancy I think many would agree.
    There is no solid ground to stand on using nicotine as the argument, unless it is proven that significant amounts of new vapers who have never smoked are now starting to use tobacco products. But that will never be proven, because it is not true.
     

    Vaslovik

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    I wouldn't be surprised to hear about a "study" claiming that oxygen produced by tobacco plants is more addictive than the oxygen produced by corn, with the recommandation that tobacco farming should be banned.

    Umm.... I think we are all kinda addicted to oxygen. I know I can't get through a day without it.
     
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    Kent C

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    There is no solid ground to stand on using nicotine as the argument, unless it is proven that significant amounts of new vapers who have never smoked are now starting to use tobacco products. But that will never be proven, because it is not true.

    I don't think "unless it is proven" is a good argument. You can prove, that exercising freedom of speech and press affects some people negatively. And that affects 'other people'. Doesn't mean we should do away with those liberties. With vaping or smoking, unless one buys into the second-hand smoke hoax, the only person affected is the individual themselves - an area of which the gov't or gov't regulation shouldn't be concerned.

    The whole idea of this ploy to put out false data like this is to draw people into this 'pragmatic' type of argument. To divide and conquer on junk science grounds (for those who claim to be 'practical' or hold pragmatism higher than individual rights). If it's a "rights argument" - they lose immediately and without question. The only way they can smuggle in their 'we know what's best for you' viewpoint, is to engage you on 'pragmatic/scientific' grounds, that again, even IF proven mean nothing when an individual is free to exercise any freedom as long as he harms no one else in the process.

    This is the way of those types - they insert doubts, invalidate anything certain, 'raise questions' - which they themselves (being "open minded" - that's not a compliment... :- ) won't answer, but stir the pot until some politician says 'something should be done about ....!" (fill in the blank). They create an 'issue' that was never an issue in the first place. And we get 4+ pages of discussing it :facepalm: :laugh: My last word on the matter....
     

    AndriaD

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    There is new research about addiction saying that it's not so much the substance that causes addiction, but rather that the addict has no solid personal connections to anyone in his/her life and so becomes deeply involved with something else, drugs, alcohol, food, sex, etc, and fixates on that to compensate for a lack of connection to other people in a positive way.

    Article here:
    The Likely Cause of Addiction Has Been Discovered, and It Is Not What You Think | Johann Hari

    Rats offered a drug that starts with the letter C in their water bottle will use it until they die of it, when alone and in a depressing environment, but rats who have a social network of other rats and a good environment won't touch it. So I think this whole addictive nicotine business is a straw man argument used by those who hate vaping because they are very unhappy people to start with and just plain need something to hate and be against. Of course it's also used by BT and big Pharma, who are just out to corner the market on nicotine.

    That's far too simplistic -- just why is the person so without those close connections? I'd say the damage that prevents the close connections is far more of a culprit than the lack itself of the close connections. But addiction encompasses so many aspects, it's literally impossible to point to any one thing and say "this is the cause." Even the genetic propensity to the "addiction disease," in all its variations and permutations, is just a *predisposition*, not a cause, and even those without any family history of any type of addiction can still fall victim to it.

    When anyone says "this is the cause of addiction," my BS meter goes into hyperdrive. You might as well talk about the cause of red hair or a love of reading.

    Andria
     

    AndriaD

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    Did you read the article? It tends to agree with you.

    That would seem to typify the difficulty that scientists or the media or both have with the causation/correlation problem. It's fine to observe a correlation and then hypothesize that perhaps B happens because of A, or possibly that A happens because of B, but if they aren't seeing that sort of definitive answer in their "research," they have no business saying one word about causation -- most things in life have more than one distal cause, even if one proximal cause can be identified -- and for something as mystifying as addiction, there's really no way to be certain of the *exact* cause, only of factors that may tend to provide a ripe opportunity for it. There can even be uncertainty when definitive causes are known -- influenza virus causes the flu, but not everyone catches it, and for most strains, most don't die of it -- but some do.

    It just irks me, seeing the shoddy excuse for science that gets reported in the media. Don Henley had it right -- "we got the bubble-headed bleach blonde, comes on at 5... she can tell ya 'bout the plane crash, with a gleam in her eye." But the so-called scientists don't seem to be one iota more intelligent, they're all sheep too, baaa'ing along in the pursuit of MONEY....

    Andria
     

    AndriaD

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    It's a good article, overall. I'm not sure of some of his points, being a life-long loner myself -- the only connection I have or need is to my husband, and to some extent to my son; it's true that since these people entered my life, I've beaten my many addictions, even the one I thought would surely be with me till it killed me -- and as I've said many times round here, I'm lucky to have such a supportive spouse, with the whole quit smoking/start vaping operation.

    The thing the article talks about most was about the inability to connect with others, but in my own case, it was a matter of connecting with my *self* -- learning who I really am, so I don't feel the need to drug myself into whatever frame of mind I think I'm *supposed* to have -- and having a supportive spouse is the only way that could have happened, because change and growth are hard and messy, but he was right there, all the way. :thumb:

    I'll read it again, see what else may emerge; I've learned that most non-fiction benefits from being read more than once, to really get it. Perhaps he is a latter-day version of Bill W., with a new insight into a truly mystifying problem.
     

    Bill Godshall

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    The authors and/or publishers of that study issued a press release claiming the "free-base" nicotine in e-cigs is more addictive than other nicotine (despite presenting no evidence that e-cigs have ever created nicotine dependence), and claimed that many e-liquids are labelled with the incorrect amount of nicotine.

    But none of those fear mongering claims made to the news media were mentioned in the study's abstract at
    An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie


    Just as I suspected, the American Chemical Society's press release that misrepresented the study's findings is at
    American Chemical Society

    Mike Siegel posted about this at
    The Rest of the Story: Tobacco News Analysis and Commentary: American Chemical Society Grossly Misrepresents Scientific Study in Order to Demonize E-Cigarettes

    News headlines and stories that repeated the false claims by ACS as factual were
    E-cigarettes are just as addictive as the real thing and most are mislabeled | Daily Mail Online
    Lower nicotine cigarettes, e-cigs not helping smokers quit - UPI.com
    E-Cigarettes May Pump Out The Same Kind Of Addictive Nicotine Found In Tobacco-Laden Cigarettes
     

    AndriaD

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    "Tobacco-laden cigarettes"??? As if cigarettes are made of sunshine and puppies, but BT nefariously puts tobacco in them just to make them evil?

    DoubleFacePalm.jpg


    Andria
     

    CardinalWinds

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    There is new research about addiction saying that it's not so much the substance that causes addiction, but rather that the addict has no solid personal connections to anyone in his/her life and so becomes deeply involved with something else, drugs, alcohol, food, sex, etc, and fixates on that to compensate for a lack of connection to other people in a positive way.

    Article here:
    The Likely Cause of Addiction Has Been Discovered, and It Is Not What You Think | Johann Hari

    Rats offered a drug that starts with the letter C in their water bottle will use it until they die of it, when alone and in a depressing environment, but rats who have a social network of other rats and a good environment won't touch it. So I think this whole addictive nicotine business is a straw man argument used by those who hate vaping because they are very unhappy people to start with and just plain need something to hate and be against. Of course it's also used by BT and big Pharma, who are just out to corner the market on nicotine.

    Interesting article. I can't speak to the main thrust of the piece, because it talks mostly about hard drug addiction, but I can assure you that my use of nicotine, now and in the past, has absolutely no correlation with my social life, friends, family members or the totality of my "support system". YMMV.

    And while I agree that animal testing has been responsible for many important medical advancements in humans, it must be kept in mind that it certainly isn't a 1:1 correlation to humans as far as efficacy or results are concerned. And that's biological correlations; it seems to me that suggested social correlations are even more tenuous. We do not socialize like rats and mice. Human interaction is a lot more complex.

    My "addiction" causes me no negative impact to my daily life, except a miniscule hit to my wallet. I am certainly aware, however, of the importance of a strong support system in getting off of "real" drugs and the fact that, if one has such already in place, the chance of hard drug addiction in the first place might be lessened.

    As far as nicotine via cigarettes vs. vaping, for me vaping is most assuredly less addictive. I can go a lot longer without a vape than I could without a cigarette. Once again, YMMV.
     

    Kurt

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    Siegel is right with what he says about this study and the ridiculous response of the ACS. The study was actually a good one for the separation and analysis method they present, but the part about free-base nic = more addictive is not only something they do not prove, it is not true, mainly because it over simplifies a very complex mechanism.

    The current addiction model for cigarettes has little to do with the form of nicotine. In terms of the actual physiology, it has far more to do with the high and rapid absorption of nicotine from inhaling cigarette smoke. Some is free-base, some is salt form, but the majority of nic, regardless of the form, penetrates to the lungs. Thus the rapid and high absorption. Regardless of the physical habit of inhaling and seeing smoke, hand to mouth, the ritual, etc, the absorption of nic is high and rapid. It is a strong spike of nicotine in the blood and to the brain.

    This is to a large extent one of the main reasons thought for smoking addiction. That fast hit of nic to the brain. But ecigs, for the most part, are unable to do this as well. Most of the nic is absorbed orally and in the throat and nose, with much less penetrating to the lungs. Yes, free-base does absorb orally faster than the salt form, but orally is still much slower than lung absorption, and those little droplets of the vapor aerosol, which encapsulate the nicotine, are in general too large for effective lung penetration. Very high wattage can improve this, but even at 9 W, it takes an hour of vaping to reach 2/3 the level of one cigarette. Its a slow ramp up because of poor lung penetration.

    And unfortunately this is also thought by medical professionals studying ecigs for cessation purposes that this is why ecigs do not work better for getting the masses to quit smoking. The majority of ecigs do not do a good job of getting nic to the lungs. And so, at least in large part, they are also not as addictive as cigarette smoking...regardless of the form of nicotine.

    It is true, as I said, that orally absorbed nicotine is faster if it is in free-base form. Thus the "kicked" snus where sodium bicarbonate is added to the tobacco to promote free-base formation. Still slower than smoking, but faster than the predominant salt form found in tobacco when used orally.

    But when smoked, the salt form gets to the lungs as solid particles adhered to smoke particles, and so is absorbed rapidly. Yes, free-base in gaseous form absorbs in the lungs faster than the salt form does, but any lung absorption is going to be faster than oral absorption, regardless of the form.

    I know of at least one PV manufacturer that is working on decreasing the vapor droplet size, which in turn, should increase lung absorption. Thus, it should be a PV that better mimics the high and rapid absorption of smoking, making it a much better smoking cessation tool. But perhaps also enhancing some of the character that increases addiction. And yes, I am very aware of the loosely used term "addiction", rather than "dependence". But frankly endlessly debating these terms among ourselves is IMHO a waste of time. And it plays into the word game rather than the effectiveness game or the absorption game. Word salad that distracts from the actual science.

    A few years ago a company tried to bring another nicotine inhaler to the market. It was a nebulizer/propellant device, not a thermal-vaporizing device. Did they use free-base nic? No! Why? Because the salt form, nicotinium pyruvate...salt form with pyruvic acid, when propelled properly, penetrates to lungs better than free-base does. It worked well in trials, but for whatever reasons, maybe money, it never came to market. If it was pleasant, would have it been effective? Probably better than gum or lozenges.

    If e-liquid manufacturers pH adjust to promote salt form (I know of at least one company that does this, with citric acid, for smell/taste reasons), will this liquid have better lung absorption? Probably not, because the salt will still be wrapped up in liquid droplets we call visible vapor, and at present those droplets are too big for effective lung penetration. I have had discussions in ECF regarding this possibility for e-liquids, and I don't think it will help. But there are no studies supporting or refuting this either, so the jury is still out. One would have to measure blood levels over time to see, and no one has done a salt-form e-liquid vapor study that I am aware of.

    Perhaps the ACS is under pressure politically to demonize vaping however they can. This is not the first demonizing article out of the ACS about vaping, but it is the most simple-minded and inflammatory statement they have made (also parrots the debunked flavors = kids myth), and it denies the complex chemistry and biochemistry of vaping and nicotine absorption, and how this relates to "addiction" as well as smoking cessation effectiveness. It denies the still far from perfect record in smoking cessation for vaping. If vaping was more addictive than smoking, everyone that tried vaping would quit smoking right away, and this is far from true. And it also, obviously, completely negates the importance of harm reduction, as well as contradicting the efforts of BP to improve absorption rates and magnitude of nicotine in their products, which is one of the big reasons why NRTs are so ineffective for cessation. Thus their new, but famously unpleasant, nicotine spray. Designed for better lung penetration, and thus rapid nicotine absorption! Of course, BP is huge in the ACS. The ACS is the largest professional organization in the world.

    By the way, the original Nicorette nicotine inhaler, that little white mouth piece thing with the sponge of nicotine in it, and the new spray-type inhaler both contain...wait for it...free-base nicotine!

    Yes, really. Two BP over-the-counter nicotine products for inhalation contain the evil, addictive free-base nicotine. And yet, they don't work very well at all. And basically suck. Huh. What a surprise.
     

    DaveSignal

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    Regardless of the physical habit of inhaling and seeing smoke, hand to mouth, the ritual, etc, the absorption of nic is high and rapid. It is a strong spike of nicotine in the blood and to the brain.

    This is to a large extent one of the main reasons thought for smoking addiction. That fast hit of nic to the brain. But ecigs, for the most part, are unable to do this as well. Very high wattage can improve this, but even at 9 W, it takes an hour of vaping to reach 2/3 the level of one cigarette. Its a slow ramp up because of poor lung penetration.

    I don't have scientific data or anything, but I can feel it right away. Maybe just my lungs are better at absorbing the dense vapor. 9W is very low wattage, though. How does this compare to 100W?
     
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