SE, NJoy vs FDA -- Discussion

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Our House

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Not impressed by this brief - except that their collective reputations carry enormous weight the brief on it's own merits is not as compelling I don't think as the original filed by the FDA. This one is not as succinct, definitely fudges facts, jumps around, displays loose logic at times and seems very arguable by a good attorney. It actually argues against itself at times. Just my "armchair" opinion (in NO WAY a legal savy person)
After just reading it, I have to agree.

All counsel for njoy/SE has to do is discredit the FDA study -- by exposing the lies & omissions of data -- and the whole case falls apart for the defendants. The rest of their (both FDA and amici) argument is nothing more than pure conjecture. "Kids may buy these" (without evidence of it happening), "Companies might put extra harmful chemicals into them" (without any evidence of it having happened), "these may stop people from using OUR quit devices" (well, they may have a point there! :D), and so on.
 

DC2

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This quote sums up the Amici argument...

"The presence of unregulated nicotine products on the market will also
exacerbate the problem of tobacco use by creating competition fbr [sic] and
discouraging the use of FDA-approved smoking cessation products..."
That really defines the word "hubris".
 
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thorn

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Sad to say but its just sosdd.

I swear these people CAN'T be this stupid.

Yes they can. Americans have become tolerant of stupidity. That is why your order is wrong 50% of the time in the drive thru, and why judges who AWARD frivolous lawsuits get re-elected instead of being publicly humiliated on tv. Cross your fingers for this case and hope for the best.
 

Vocalek

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I love this claim:

"...the confusion caused by the presence on the market of unregulated nicotine products viewed by the public as unsafe or ineffective may lead consumers to forgo all smoking cessation products, even those FDA has actually found to be safe and effective."

Wouldn't it be fun to get Margaret Hamberg on the stand and cross-examine her about some of this (as Harry put it) sosdd?


PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: Now, Ms. Hamberg, there has been a lot of discussion about the smoking cessaation drugs that the FDA has "found to be safe and effective. " Isn't it true that the FDA found that verenicline, brand name Chantix, was a safe and effective drug to use for smoking cessation?

HAMBERG: Yes.

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: Ms. Hamberg, I'm handing you a report on a study on verenicline by the Institute for Safe Medication Practices.* Would you please read the highlighted text.

HAMBERG [Reading]: "From May 2006 through December 2007, the FDA had received 227 domestic reports of suicidal acts, thoughts or behaviors, 397 cases of possible psychosis and 525 reports of hostility or aggression. These totals included 28 cases of suicide and 41 mentions of homicidal ideation, 60 cases of paranoia and 55 cases of hallucination. The categories were not mutually exclusive."

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: Thank you. Now isn't it true, Ms. Hamberg, that in July 2009 the FDA invited the public to use the MedWatch FDA program to report adverse events caused by electronic cigarettes?

HAMBERG: Yes.

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: Can you tell me how many reports of "suicidal thoughts, acts or behaviors" MedWatch has received about electronic cigarettes?

HAMBERG: None

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: How many cases of possible psychosis caused by electronic cigarettes have been reported to MedWatch?

HAMBERG: None

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: How many cases of hostility or aggression caused by electronic cigarettes have been reported to MedWatch?

HAMBERG: None

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: How many deaths are attributed to using an electronic cigarette?

HAMBERG: None

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: Ms. Hamberg, I direct your attention to the very end of the report that I handed you. Would you read that bottom line to the court?

HAMBERG [Reading]: "Published May 21, 2008 by the Institute for Safe Medication Practices."

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: And since receiving this report, did the FDA remove Chantix from the marketplace?

HAMBERG: No. The FDA required the manufacturer to add a "black box warning" to the package and prescribing instructions.

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY [Sounding incredulous]: No? The product is still being marketed?
With all those serious problems, why didn't the FDA get rid of it?

HAMBERG: The risk of serious adverse events while taking these products must be weighed against the significant health benefits of quitting smoking.

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: So would it be fair to say, Ms. Hamberg, that the FDA believes that smoking is so detrimental to health that it is worth it for a smoker to risk the potential for suicide, psychosis, hostility, and agression?

HAMBERG: Smoking is the leading cause of preventable disease, disability, and death in the United States and we know these products are effective aids in helping people quit.**

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: I hear you saying that smoking is so very dangerous that if there's a product that even might be effective, it's worth taking a risk that the smoking cessation treatment might be unsafe. So tell me, Ms. Hamberg. We've discussed the risks of taking Chantix. What would be the odds of an electronic cigarette user developing any of those problems?

HAMBERG: We have no way of knowing, because the electronic cigarettes have not been through our drug approval process.

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: But haven't we just established the fact that the FDA's drug approval process doesn't always guarantee that a drug is truly safe? And haven't we established that there have been no reports of serious problems by electronic cigarette users?

HAMBERG: Yes, but....

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: Isn't it true, Ms. Hamberg, that FDA prefers randomized clinical trials for proof that a product is safe?

HAMBERG: Yes.

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: And isn't it also true, Ms. Hamberg, that FDA allows drug manufacturers to exclude certain populations from participation in the trials, if the manufacturer believes including those populations might change the results? For example, weren't people with any history of depression or other mental illnesses excluded from testing Chantix.

HAMBERG: Yes, but there's a good...

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: Ms. Hamberg, doesn't it follow that the true measure of how safe any drug is comes when the drug is out on the market and available to just about anyone?

HAMBERG: Yes.

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: So, Ms. Hamberg, wouldn't you have to agree that there is a pretty clear picture that electronic cigarettes are much safer than using Chantix?

HAMBERG: No!

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY:No? Your honor, I'm through with this witness.


NOTE: The dialog above is fiction. I made it up. I just wish it were true. Some of the facts and FDA statements are drawn from real life. See references below.


*Strong Signal Seen on New Varenicline Risks
** FDA: Boxed Warning on Serious Mental Health Events to be Required for Chantix and Zyban
 
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D103

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Excellent Elaine !! Are those stats re: Chantix for real? I knew it was bad but it is compelling to see the actual statistics. I still feel strongly that major news media outlets need these kind of submissions. Please consider sending this - with an opening explanation of course to set the stage - to outlets like MSNBC, CNN, AC360, 60 minutes, and any other credible news program you can think of - hopefully someone, somewhere will get interested and seriously look into this. Besides the main reason which is for us to prevail and have e-cigs being allowed to remain on the market, I truly believe there is a huge story here re: FDA practices, the alphabet suits, Big Pharma, and the whole industry wrought with money, corruption, extortion, political payoffs, etc.
 

mpetva

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I love this claim:
Wouldn't it be fun to get Margaret Hamberg on the stand and cross-examine her about some of this (as Harry put it) sosdd?

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: Now, Ms. Hamberg, there has been a lot of discussion about the smoking cessaation drugs that the FDA has "found to be safe and effective. " Isn't it true that the FDA found that verenicline, brand name Chantix, was a safe drug to use for smoking cessation?

HAMBERG: Yes.

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: Ms. Hamberg, I'm handing you a report on a study on verenicline by the Institute for Safe Medication Practices.* Would you please read the highlighted text.

HAMBERG [Reading]: "From May 2006 through December 2007, the FDA had received 227 domestic reports of suicidal acts, thoughts or behaviors, 397 cases of possible psychosis and 525 reports of hostility or aggression. These totals included 28 cases of suicide and 41 mentions of homicidal ideation, 60 cases of paranoia and 55 cases of hallucination. The categories were not mutually exclusive."

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: Thank you. Now isn't it true, Ms. Hamberg, that in July 2009 the FDA invited the public to use the MedWatch FDA program to report adverse events caused by electronic cigarettes?

HAMBERG: Yes.

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: About a year has passed since then. Can you tell me how many reports of "suicidal thoughts, acts or behaviors" MedWatch has received about electronic cigarettes?

HAMBERG: None

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: How many cases of possible psychosis caused by electronic cigarettes have been reported to MedWatch?

HAMBERG: None

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: How many cases of hostility or aggression caused by electronic cigarettes have been reported to MedWatch?

HAMBERG: None

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: How many deaths are attributed to using an electronic cigarette?

HAMBERG: None

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: Ms. Hamberg, I direct your attention to the very end of the report that I handed you. Would you read that bottom line to the court?

HAMBERG [Reading]: "Published May 21, 2008 by the Institute for Safe Medication Practices."

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: And since receiving this report, did the FDA remove Chantix from the marketplace?

HAMBERG: No. The FDA required the manufacturer to add a "black box warning" to the package and prescribing instructions.

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY [Sounding incredulous]: No? The product is still being marketed?
With all those serious problems, why didn't the FDA get rid of it?

HAMBERG: The risk of serious adverse events while taking these products must be weighed against the significant health benefits of quitting smoking.

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: So would it be fair to say, Ms. Hamberg, that the FDA believes that smoking is so detrimental to health that it is worth it for a smoker to risk the potential for suicide, psychosis, hostility, and agression?

HAMBERG: Smoking is the leading cause of preventable disease, disability, and death in the United States and we know these products are effective aids in helping people quit.**
PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: And what would be the odds of an electronic cigarette user developing any of those problems?

HAMBERG: We have no way of knowing, because the electronic cigarettes have not been through our drug approval process.

PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: But haven't we just established the fact that the FDA's drug approval process doesn't always guarantee that a drug is truly safe?

HAMBERG:

*Strong Signal Seen on New Varenicline Risks
** FDA: Boxed Warning on Serious Mental Health Events to be Required for Chantix and Zyban

LOVE, LOVE, LOVE IT!!!!!

Perhaps lawyers for the plaintiffs read this and use it!
 

rothenbj

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I love this claim:



Wouldn't it be fun to get Margaret Hamberg on the stand and cross-examine her about some of this (as Harry put it) sosdd?


PLAINTIFF ATTORNEY: Now, Ms. Hamberg, there has been a lot of discussion about the smoking cessaation drugs that the FDA has "found to be safe and effective. " Isn't it true that the FDA found that verenicline, brand name Chantix, was a .................

Classic, Elaine, truly classic.
 

JustJulie

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Thanks Julie - you da' bomb! :D

Checking the docket is easy as all get out, and I feel kind of embarrassed when people thank me. :oops: And truthfully, it's not even expensive. When there's nothing on the docket, it costs me 8 cents to check. When there is something on the docket and I pull it up, it's 8 cents a page.

Treece and I follow the docket anyway, so it really is no trouble at all to share the information here.

I'm grateful that Elendil is amenable to my uploading the entire document unedited. It not only makes less work for me, but I also think it's nice for folks to be able to have the entire document. These documents are public record, after all. :)
 

Vaporer

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That was great Elaine.

The more rereads I do of that document, I'm abt speechless. The comments by the above posters are true. Contradictions and the FDA seems proud of stopping previous safer alternatives.

"current smokers may attempt use these products for smoking-cessation instead of FDA-approved products proven effective for this use."
Unbelieveable.........maybe because "these" actually work? Even though their backers didn't make them, it surely reads by their own admission that the FDA stopped other products that were safer and in the better public interest.
 

ezmoose

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From the BRIEF FOR APPELLANTS

“Short-term side-effects reported from use of ‘electronic cigarettes’ include racing pulse, dizziness, slurred speech, mouth ulcers, heartburn, coughing, ........, and sore throat.”

Funny, I've never experienced any of those side-effects and I don’t recall seeing that FDA Study?

Did they “borrow” that from this thread?

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...3305-list-common-symptoms-when-e-smoking.html

Can you say hearsay evidence?
 

Our House

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From the BRIEF FOR APPELLANTS

“Short-term side-effects reported from use of ‘electronic cigarettes’ include racing pulse, dizziness, slurred speech, mouth ulcers, heartburn, coughing, ........, and sore throat.”

Funny, I've never experienced any of those side-effects and I don’t recall seeing that FDA Study?

Did they “borrow” that from this thread?

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...3305-list-common-symptoms-when-e-smoking.html

Can you say hearsay evidence?
That was addressed before in the big thread. However...

What's even more curious is the fact that FDA and the nation's biggest health organizations (the alphabet groups) find racing pulse, dizziness, slurred speech, mouth ulcers, heartburn, coughing, ........, and sore throat more dangerous to the public than cancer, emphysema, heart disease, COPD and death!
 
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