Snus just as bad as chews?

[TropicalBob]

I really don't relish "showing" up someone, but that post was pure ignorance, and needed correct information following it. Misinformation on this forum forms the basis for flawed opinion. That's just a shame. Imagine an anti group reading that and taking it as fact ... arrrrrgh!

 

[Kitabz]

... ALL tobacco products are lumped in with cigarettes, with no differences in health effects noted ...

Quite the opposite in this case. Sen. Richard Burr appears to have presented a chart displaying the relative risk of nicotine/tobacco products showing e-cigs worse than snus (or perhaps that should be snus better than e-cigs depending on your point of view). I'm curious to know what he based his chart on as I would expect a senior politician to have a source rather than just pluck numbers from thin air.

Then again, maybe I'm just naïve.

 

[cowgal]

ok so correct me if im wrong but aren't snus just like chew and contain the same awful chemicals and carcinogens? yes its an alternative to smoking but one still proven to cause face cancers........ why not just stick to the vapes?

Snus may or may not be free of chemicals found in flamable cigarettes, but that's not the point. The major inconvenience of Snus (or chew tobacco) is the requirement to SPIT - and that is disgusting, socially unacceptable, inconvenient, unsanitary, --- need I go on?

How can you guys drop bombs like these and not come back and say "okay, we stand corrected"? You don't even read up on a topic before you make your mind up, then you run around stating your erroneous opinions as fact? To us, the people who've actually tried snus and know better? Figure it out and let us know you have, or you're just trolling IMO.

 

[WerkIt]

Quite the opposite in this case. Sen. Richard Burr appears to have presented a chart displaying the relative risk of nicotine/tobacco products showing e-cigs worse than snus (or perhaps that should be snus better than e-cigs depending on your point of view). I'm curious to know what he based his chart on as I would expect a senior politician to have a source rather than just pluck numbers from thin air.

Then again, maybe I'm just naïve.

Since when was Sen. Burr, who happens to represent the state of North Carolina (can you say TOBACCO STATE?) part of the tobacco temperance movement? Post the ENTIRE quote and all becomes clear:

Because the modern myth of the tobacco temperance movement..... Within the temperance movement, ALL tobacco products are lumped in with cigarettes, with no differences in health effects noted.

 

[WerkIt]

How can you guys drop bombs like these and not come back and say "okay, we stand corrected"?

They will be back when all of their batteries and atomizers are dead and they can no longer buy e-liquids.

 

[duncantiv]

No. However, Camel does make a real snus, found here,. Camel SNUS is not a real snus. Real snus is manufactured according to Swedish food regulations and includes a list of all known ingredients. Camel SNUS does none of these things. You do not know what you are getting if you use Camel SNUS, just as you've no idea what you are getting if you purchase US analogs. No one knows what is in them. Of course, if you trust Big Tobacco and trust they have your best interest at heart, none of the above will bother you.



The sweetener in Camel SNUS is fake, as far as I am aware.

.

Snus is moist snuff. Snuff is ground tobacco.

Heh, in the first section, you kind of lost me. When you refer to "Camel Snus", are you referring to the (sort of) Swedish ones sold on BuySnus, or are you referring to the ones sold in American convenience stores, or both? I propose we refer to the BuySnus ones as Swedish Camels Snus, and the convenience store ones as American Camel Snus, just to avoid confusion. I know it makes for more typing, but if we're to have a meaningful dialogue, it's best to avoid misinterpretation and confusion.

As for the rest, I completely agree that Big Tobacco will do whatever they can to make a buck, but until I have hard facts regarding the contents of American Camel Snus, I am hesitant to lump them in with traditional American chewing tobacco or analogs in terms of health hazards. You're probably 100% correct that they're worse than Swedish Snus, but documentation would be good to have. Unfortunately, the studies that have been done, to my knowledge, haven't covered American Camel Snus, and I am hesitant to make assumptions about any possible danger associated with them.

Does anybody know of any more recent studies? I'm betting that none have been done yet, and American tobacco companies just started packaging tobacco in the Snus style to capitalize on the idea without any research, but there is a remote possibility that somebody has started looking into the American Camel Snus, and maybe they have actually started posting results. Granted, they won't have long-term results, but maybe they've done research into ingredients, or TSNA (did I remember that one correctly?) levels.

 

[Stubby]

They will be back when all of their batteries and atomizers are dead and they can no longer buy e-liquids.

It's a hit and run.

 

[tescela]

Hello all!

I currently know very little about snus, except what I have learned in this thread...namely, that American tobacco companies are producing and selling "snus" here that does not meet the high food quality standards in place in Sweden.

***Please allow me to pick your brain:

I am seeking recommendations for Swedish *pouch* snus. Here is some info that will hopefully be helpful in making a suggestion (should you choose to help me):

- I swag estimate that I vape 3-4 ml of 24mg e-liquid per day
- I like the taste and nicotine level of U.S. Camel Snus Spice and Frost

I plan to continue vaping, but progressively decrease the nicotine strength of my e-liquid down to 6mg, or even zero.

My overall objectives are:

1. Avoid returning to analogs
2. *Slowly* decrease my nicotine intake

So, to make Swedish snus work, it shouldn't be so strong that my nicotine intake rises, but it should be high enough that -- at the beginning -- it serves as a replacement for pretty heavily vaping 24mg.

Thank you in advance for your suggestions!


P.S. If there is another thread that covers this, then I apologize for posting in the wrong area, and ask that you please point me in the right direction.

 

[duncantiv]

WerkIt might have better info, but my first impression is that these might do the trick for you:

Snus - Odens Extra Strong Original Portion

3-4mL of 24mg juice is pretty damn high. The Snus that I referenced are the highest available (that I know of) at 17mg each, so maybe they'll do the trick. If regular flavour doesn't do it, check around on the website. Oden makes a couple of other flavours that you may prefer.

 

[Kitabz]

... Post the ENTIRE quote and all becomes clear: [...]
Within the temperance movement, ...

Oh I see, I thought you were relating your comments to the senator (and, not being an American, I have no idea who he is [other than a senator], what he stands for or who he represents).

 

[Kitabz]

- I swag estimate that I vape 3-4 ml of 24mg e-liquid per day
- I like the taste and nicotine level of U.S. Camel Snus Spice and Frost
[...]
So, to make Swedish snus work, it shouldn't be so strong that my nicotine intake rises, but it should be high enough that -- at the beginning -- it serves as a replacement for pretty heavily vaping 24mg.

Okay, running the numbers we can estimate that, at most, you use about 100mg of nicotine per day. It is believed that we absorb about 10% of it (which, personally, I think is an underestimate) so we'll take it that you absorb 10mg of nicotine - roughly the equivalent of 10 normal strength analogs. [FWIW, I think the number is more like 20mg = 20 analogs].

The nicotine absorption of snus (Swedish) is about 20% so the following are the approximate yields:

• Mini - ...5mg - 1.0mg absorbed
• Regular - 8mg - 1.6mg absorbed
• Strong - 12mg - 2.4mg absorbed
• Extra - .17mg - 3.4mg absorbed

If you were to use: 10 minis -or- 6 regulars -or- 4 strongs -or- 3 extras, and not vape at all, your nicotine intake (absorbed) would be equivalent to that of present day vaping. Of course any combination of pouches plus some vaping can be calculated.

IMHO the main benefit of the regulars or strongs versus the mini is that they hit a little bit more noticeably and they last longer - I use mainly strong and usually use only 5-6 per day (with minimal or no vaping). If I were to use minis, I'd need about one per hour rather than one every two or three.

Were I in your shoes, I'd be inclined to start with regular and then move either up or down depending upon how it goes. I definitely would not start with Odens Extra Strong because it'll likely make you vomit if you haven't use Swedish snus before and your gums are not used to it.

As for flavor, I can't really say because I've never had the American SNUS so I'll leave that bit for others to comment on.

Hope this helps...

 

[tescela]

3-4mL of 24mg juice is pretty damn high.

Thank you for your suggestion, duncantiv.

I am not at all sure that I vape 3-4 mL per day...that was a total swag on my part. I think it is likely that I am overestimating the quantity.

If this tells you anything: a single American Camel Snus seems to deliver a lot more nicotine than my vaping. Any idea what the strength is for Camel Snus Frost and Spice? ...b/c I don't need anything stronger than that.

 

[duncantiv]

Thank you for your suggestion, duncantiv.

I am not at all sure that I vape 3-4 mL per day...that was a total swag on my part. I think it is likely that I am overestimating the quantity.

If this tells you anything: a single American Camel Snus seems to deliver a lot more nicotine than my vaping. Any idea what the strength is for Camel Snus Frost and Spice? ...b/c I don't need anything stronger than that.

Actually, you just hit on a major point of my discussion with WerkIt. There is frustratingly litle data on American Camel Snus. Even the Swedish Camel Snus sold on buysnus.com don't list their nicotine content. I've read posts here that estimate the American Camel Snus as having 11mg per packet, but I don't know if there have been any definitive studies on them, or even if the manufacturing method is consistent enough for them to have a "standard" nicotine level.

 

[iggyLover]

I believe American Camel SNUS to be around 5 or 6 mg IF that.
People report on getting a buzz out of a mini Swedish 4mg portion.
AND they've been vaping and still getting a buzz of 4mg snus.

I started with the regular portions and I really felt it. After awhile I went on to Strong portions to shake the "I NEED a smoke NOW" feeling.
after 4 months of snusing I use more Regulars and minis and maybe an hour total of vaping. If I'm extra stressed out, I go for Nick and Johnnys Strong or Grovsvert. But seriously, don't go for the strong stuff now and defiantly not ODENS.
Have fun, snus is great!

 

[tescela]

I believe American Camel SNUS to be around 5 or 6 mg IF that.
People report on getting a buzz out of a mini Swedish 4mg portion.
AND they've been vaping and still getting a buzz of 4mg snus.

I started with the regular portions and I really felt it. After awhile I went on to Strong portions to shake the "I NEED a smoke NOW" feeling.
after 4 months of snusing I use more Regulars and minis and maybe an hour total of vaping. If I'm extra stressed out, I go for Nick and Johnnys Strong or Grovsvert. But seriously, don't go for the strong stuff now and defiantly not ODENS.
Have fun, snus is great!

Thank you for the advice, iggyLover!

 

[WerkIt]

Heh, in the first section, you kind of lost me. When you refer to "Camel Snus", are you referring to the (sort of) Swedish ones sold on BuySnus, or are you referring to the ones sold in American convenience stores, or both? I propose we refer to the BuySnus ones as Swedish Camels Snus, and the convenience store ones as American Camel Snus, just to avoid confusion. I know it makes for more typing, but if we're to have a meaningful dialogue, it's best to avoid misinterpretation and confusion.

Camel SNUS is not real snus and made in the US.
Camel snus IS real snus and made in Sweden.

I merely go by what is referenced on the tins themselves to keep things clear,

 

[WerkIt]

Oh I see, I thought you were relating your comments to the senator (and, not being an American, I have no idea who he is [other than a senator], what he stands for or who he represents).

No he is the senator for NC, a known tobacco state, who advocates harm reduction (ie, substitute vaping, snus or dissolvable tobacco for cigarettes), as opposed to being part of the modern tobacco temperance movement which teaches that nicotine is DEADLY, those who remain addicted to it are not better than ...... addicts and every use of nicotine makes the baby Jesus cry.

 

[gashin]

There's NO proof that even regular dipping/chewing causes oral cancer...

Read this study:

Oral cancer in a tobacco-chewing US population--no...[Oral Surg Oral Med Oral Pathol Oral Radiol Endod. 1998] - PubMed Result
"The hypothesis was not confirmed by data analysis. West Virginia is the state with the highest per capita consumption of smokeless tobacco, yet it has less oral/pharyngeal cancer than the US average."

 

[duncantiv]

Camel SNUS is not real snus and made in the US.
Camel snus IS real snus and made in Sweden.

I merely go by what is referenced on the tins themselves to keep things clear,

Silly WerkIt, you assume I pay attention to what's printed on the cans? LOL

Ok, SNUS = American knockoff, snus = Swedish made. I can live with that. Oddly enough, tobaccoproducts.org lists the American ones as Camel SNUS, and the Swedish ones as CAMEL Snus. To further irk me, they aren't even consistent with the stupid capitalization scheme, referring to the American SNUS as Camel Snus. All in all, I like your system best.

Ok, at first glance, they seem to have some facts about Camel SNUS, but I'll have to delve deeper to see where they get the info. So far we have:

Product Design Features

• Contains pasteurized tobacco, water, pouch materials, flavors (including menthol for Camel Snus Frost), sodium carbonate, and sodium chloride
• Nicotine (Original): 14.5 mg/g ; Free Nicotine, 2.4 mg/g ; Total TSNA: 1.4 mg/g
• Nicotine content could vary by product flavor type as a specific intention of the manufacturer to create a consumer acceptable nicotine effect-flavor balance

Camel Snus is a spitless, Swedish-style dry snuff which has lower TSNA levels and is potentially less harmful than other SLT products. The product is the first smokeless tobacco product to be marketed by a cigarette company in the US, and appears to have been developed to appeal to smokers. The product is made in Sweden under contract to Reynolds American. Like Swedish-style snus products, Camel Snus is pasteurized which inhibits development of TSNAs. Camel Snus also has low salt, which produces less saliva and reduces the need for spitting.

I find myself curious about the distinction between nicotine and free nicotine. Anybody have any idea what it means?

Anyway, it looks like Camel SNUS might be made according to Swedish standards since they are actually manufactured in Sweden. According to the site, that last paragraph is attributed to: "Rees, Vaughn W., Connolly, Gregory N.; Potentially Reduced Exposure Tobacco Products: A Public Health Information Guide; 2008 Harvard School of Public Health".

The site does go on to to list:

Human Use and Exposure

• Human exposure: not yet conducted or not available

Toxicity Analyses

• Ames method in vitro: not yet conducted or not available
• In vivo MSP: not yet conducted or not available
• Animal exposure: not yet conducted or not available

Well, I have no idea how accurate any of the above info is, but at least we have something resembling hard data on Camel SNUS.

EDIT: I just found out that Marlboro is test marketing a Snus brand, and it seems they've been caught pulling some questionable tactics of the type WerkIt was suspecting. http://www.harmreductionjournal.com/content/pdf/1477-7517-5-9.pdf is a really interesting read!

 

[TropicalBob]

I had read that harm reduction paper on Marlboro snus, and have to agree. I'm not sure Marlboro can still be purchased anywhere now, but I bought and tried several tins awhile back. Really, really weak and sickeningly sweet. No more effective that a stick of chewing gum.

Knowing what we now know about PM from its involvement in the bill handing tobacco control to the FDA, I join the authors of that harm reduction article in believing PM's intent was to sabotage ALL snus for Americans. Anyone trying Marlboro snus -- and believing it is representative of Swedish snus -- would be turned off to snus and would return to the highly profitable cigarette.

Since Marlboro is the most popular cigarette from Big Tobacco, it might have the highest number of users trying to find a cheaper way to obtain nicotine. Marlboro smokers would try ... Marlboro snus, in the red and white slide-top packet. And what a disappontment! Snus suck, they would conclude.

RJR did not go this route with Camel. They did use a lot of sweetener, in the belief that Americans like sweet stuff far more than bitter (and they are right, people!!!!). But they did not take nicotine levels so low as to be undetectable, as PM did with Marlboro.

Don't forget that PM's first snus was Taboka, and it was plenty strong, make in Sweden to Swedish standards. Tasted, yuck. Pulled from the market. Later replaced with Marlboro snus.

PM definitely has its eye on future profits and is playing the nicotine market like a master. Corporate motto: Why follow when you can lead?