So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[trog100]

"Oh, you smoked two packs of reds per day? Try the 36 mg, and see if maybe 3 mL doesn't do the trick for you."

based on what i know thru various sources i would go for that one.. but it does somewhat leave those who just like to use normal 16 mg carts which leave 30% of the fluid still in the cart and so waste it way out in the cold from a cost point of view..

a 901 mini cart allowing for wastage delivers around .3..5 of a ml.. thats one hell of a lot of 16 mg mini carts per day needed to get that 3ml of 36 mg.. ..

so to use e cigs as they are intend to be used one could say they are being well and truly mis-sold.. in short as effective alternative nicotine deliver devices they are fakes..

so it seems providing we use excessive quantities of liquid and drip like mad we might be getting it.. but it can also be assumed the vast majority of normal e cigs users are not getting it..

sooo it seems those who claim (used as intended) normal e cigs are mere placebos aint far off the mark..

trog

ps... 3 carts per 1 ml of effective liquid x by 3 and double it.. hmmm we would be talking 18 carts per day to be getting it... hmmm..

and interestingly.. 3 ml a day of 36 mg is roughly where i am at now and have been for quite some time.. which does leave me kind of getting it..

 

[DVap]

Some data posted on a thread elsewhere:

[FONT=Default Sans Serif,Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"... Bullen, Glover, Laugesen, Lin, McRobbie, and Thornley report that after 9 participants used the Ruyan device (16 mg cartridge) for 5 minutes, peak plasma nicotine concentration was 1.3 ng/ml (95% confidence interval = 0.0 to 2.6). In contrast, for those same participants, a cigarette produced a peak plasma nicotine concentration of 13.4 ng/ml (95% CI = 6.5-20)."[/FONT]

Time to dissect.

The unanswered questions:
"what kind of cigarette, ultra-light, light, full-flavor?"
"How many vapes in 5 minutes, what duration?"
"Does 5 minutes mean 1 analog was smoked?"

The answers to these questions not being provided means I have to try to make some general "safe" assumptions.

Assuming, full flavor, 1 mg absorbed. Assuming 4 vapes per minute at 3 seconds per vape. 20 vapes for a total of 60 seconds of vaping.

Things I've found experimentally:
40% nicotine delivery
1 uL of liquid consumed/second of vaping.

So according to my expectations, 60 seconds of vaping would consume 60 uL of liquid. Since the liquid was at 16 mg/mL, this is equivalent to 16 ug/uL. At 60 uL, 0.96 mg of nicotine was vaped. Apply the 40% efficiency to 0.96 mg, and we come up with 0.38 mg of nicotine inhaled and absorbed, around 38% of the analog total.

My testing/research is not in line with this research. While I would expect 38% as much nicotine as a full flavor analog, this study produced a result of 10%, and suggests a 10% vaping efficiency instead of the 40% I've found both empirically and experimentally.

So I'll look at my own smoking vs vaping. I used to smoke about 30 ultra-light/day about 2/3rds of the way down. I was probably getting 0.3 mg per analog for a daily nicotine intake of 9 mg.

According to the research cited, I'd need 90 mg of nicotine in my liquid to compensate. I'd be vaping just short of 4 mL of 24 mg/day to break even. For awhile, while I was finding my level, 4 mL of 24 mg just happens to be what I was vaping. I was wired like a cross-country power-line. I was having crazy dreams and ended up throwing up a few times. Clearly something isn't adding up with this research. When I dropped back to 4 mL of 6 mg, I was fine. I've recently settled in at around 2 mL of 12 mg. No cravings, no crazy dreams, no throwing up. Sorry industry study, your results don't add up.

Then there's the forum member with the blood test.. it does seem on the low side. Is it any wonder this is driving us all crazy?

 

[DVap]

so to use e cigs as they are intend to be used one could say they are being well and truly mis-sold.. in short as effective alternative nicotine deliver devices they are fakes..

It depends.

For the pack a day smokers, 16 mg at 1.5 - 3 mL per day may well do the trick.

The folks who seem to have the biggest problem with vaping are the intractable full-flavor chain-smokers, taking in perhaps up to 60 mg of nicotine per day. I hazard to say it, but their tolerance and addiction level suggest nothing short of e-liquid levels that are considered "dangerous".. like a 60 mg liquid. I suspect these heavily addicted smokers would handle it fine while it could make a pack a day smoker quite ill. But, let's face it.. a 60 mg/day nicotine addiction is extreme, and for the vaping alternative to work, it would perhaps require an extreme liquid, either that or pushing 5 mL/day of 36 mg liquid... which would be in the vicinity of chain vaping (though 3 packs of analogs/day is probably in the vicinity of chain smoking).

It is quite possible that there are people out there who simply can't get enough nicotine, and for them, the delivery system (analogs) simply is the rate limiter of how much nicotine they take in. If burning 2 analogs at once wasn't patently ridiculous, these people might try it.

 

[jwinney]

WOW! This was a long one!

 

[breakfastchef]

trog uses e-cigs to supplement his nicotine intake, as far as I can decipher from his post history. That is fine. Many folks use e-cigs to provide nicotine to their systmes and may use other products to supply additional nicotine to their liking (i.e. snus, pipe tobacco, nicotine sticks, nasal snuff).

I tried an e-cig device for fun and ended up quitting smoking analogs. If e-cigs provide little or no nicotine, then I am thrilled to find out that I am primarily addicted to the physical/oral aspects of smoking. If e-cigs do provide nicotine efficiently, then I would not know if I was addicted to the drug or the physical part of analog smoking. Regardless, this device has essentially changed my life for the better.

 

[Nuck]

breakfastchef..what mod is that in your sig? Any idea what caused the failure?

 

[Heed]

trog uses e-cigs to supplement his nicotine intake, as far as I can decipher from his post history. That is fine. Many folks use e-cigs to provide nicotine to their systmes and may use other products to supply additional nicotine to their liking (i.e. snus, pipe tobacco, nicotine sticks, nasal snuff).

I tried an e-cig device for fun and ended up quitting smoking analogs. If e-cigs provide little or no nicotine, then I am thrilled to find out that I am primarily addicted to the physical/oral aspects of smoking. If e-cigs do provide nicotine efficiently, then I would not know if I was addicted to the drug or the physical part of analog smoking. Regardless, this device has essentially changed my life for the better.

Yes. The two basic groups we see on the forum -- those that quit smoking "almost by accident" and those who don't transition fully and use other nicotine products to supplement (or have a generally tough time just vaping). I am in the first camp as well.

You can find out if your addiction is to nicotine or to the oral aspects of smoking if you're interested -- drop your liquid nic level to 0 over a few weeks. You'll soon see where your addiction lies. I'm on 0 nic now and found out that, at this point, the oral aspects of smoking have a much stronger pull than any craving for nicotine.

I wonder if the "addicted to smoking" group are the ones to who take to e-cig easily and the "addicted to nicotine" group are the ones needing to supplement with tobacco products. It would seem like it might breakdown that way, but that's also probably way too neat.

 

[VinnieVapor]

I used to smoke about 30 ultra-light/day about 2/3rds of the way down. I was probably getting 0.3 mg per analog for a daily nicotine intake of 9 mg.

This is wrong. It has been proven that light and ultra light smokers inhale deeper and/or longer and/or take bigger inhalations to get more nicotine.

0.3 mg and other low score or only ontained while using benchmark machines that uses a fixed succion of a fixed amout of time.

Some even say light / ultra light are even moer damaging because of the deeper inhalation.

 

[DVap]

This is wrong. It has been proven that light and ultra light smokers inhale deeper and/or longer and/or take bigger inhalations to get more nicotine.

0.3 mg and other low score or only ontained while using benchmark machines that uses a fixed succion of a fixed amout of time.

Some even say light / ultra light are even moer damaging because of the deeper inhalation.

Fair generalization, but faulty when applied to my personal analog habit.

You might be correct if I had switched to ultra-lights from full flavor analogs and had to compensate for the loss, which I didn't. I was always an ultra-light smoker, didn't cover the ventilation holes, didn't pull long or hard, and stopped with about 20 mm of smokable .... remaining. ~ 0.3 mg per analog.

 

[DVap]

trog uses e-cigs to supplement his nicotine intake, as far as I can decipher from his post history. That is fine. Many folks use e-cigs to provide nicotine to their systmes and may use other products to supply additional nicotine to their liking (i.e. snus, pipe tobacco, nicotine sticks, nasal snuff).

I tried an e-cig device for fun and ended up quitting smoking analogs. If e-cigs provide little or no nicotine, then I am thrilled to find out that I am primarily addicted to the physical/oral aspects of smoking. If e-cigs do provide nicotine efficiently, then I would not know if I was addicted to the drug or the physical part of analog smoking. Regardless, this device has essentially changed my life for the better.

And that, wise sir, is the essence of it.

 

[DVap]

I wonder if the "addicted to smoking" group are the ones to who take to e-cig easily and the "addicted to nicotine" group are the ones needing to supplement with tobacco products. It would seem like it might breakdown that way, but that's also probably way too neat.

It might be "too neat", as you say, but probably essentially correct.

As an "under 10 mg/day" analog smoker, I managed to outright quit cold turkey several times over the nearly 30 year relationship I've had with smoking and nicotine... once for 8 years solid.

I would imagine that among smokers who have managed to simply quit tobacco and nicotine completely for any extended length of time, there might be observed a trend in the success-rate inversely proportional to the daily nicotine dosage.

Honestly, when I smoked and didn't get my fix for a day or two, I wasn't all that fuzzy or irritable from it... it was quite bearable. We can also see nicotine addiction reflected in our morning habits. I know many low dose smokers who might not have their first cigarette until noon, and others who only smoke on breaks at work, but not at home or on the weekends.

Absolutely, something sets these smokers apart from the hardcore nicotine addicts. I liked to say that my smoking was 20% physical and 80% habit. My ex-wife would say that her smoking is 100% physical and 100% habit. She never was that good with math.

 

[Brewster 59]

I know I'm definitely getting it. I am pretty confident that nicotine is getting too us vapors just fine or me at least.

Though what spikes my interest is if different people absorb the nicotine from the vapor as well as others. I would imagine so with all the differing viewpoints. One person that smokes 1 pack a day full flavors can get away with 18mg and then another can't get away with 26 mg and has to go to 36 mg and sometimes higher to get off the analogs. Then some people will get queasy from vaping anything higher than 18mg. I think some people's bodies are more adept to adsorb the nicotine from vapor than others.

I actually went into vaping pretty much a doubting thomas. I smoked 30-40 analogs a day, full flavor. The first day of vaping 26mg I was high as a kite, heart racing, dizzy, and had the shakes. I was convinced I was going to have to reduce the mg, after 2 days I actually was no longer experiencing what I still think was a nic OD. I have tryed a couple of analogs and noted no difference in effect, just that they tasted like shiite. Others say they have to vape constantly or vaping does not satisfy them. Maybe your on to something about different people asorbing different amounts from vaping.

 

[DVap]

I actually went into vaping pretty much a doubting thomas. I smoked 30-40 analogs a day, full flavor. The first day of vaping 26mg I was high as a kite, heart racing, dizzy, and had the shakes. I was convinced I was going to have to reduce the mg, after 2 days I actually was no longer experiencing what I still think was a nic OD. I have tryed a couple of analogs and noted no difference in effect, just that they tasted like shiite. Others say they have to vape constantly or vaping does not satisfy them. Maybe your on to something about different people asorbing different amounts from vaping.

That's really interesting. My first guess would be that 3 - 4 mL per day of 26 mg would be just right to balance out your analog habit, and yet you caught an OD from what would seem to be a good starting point. 24 mg at 4 mL per day really knocked my socks off, I actually puked, but my 30 analogs per day were ultra-lights and only partially smoked.

Just wondering.. when you started vaping at 26 mg, did you work that thing like no tomorrow? You know.. like put down 2 mL in the first hour due to the sheer novelty? I'm thinking that would do it as far as getting OD'ed.

 

[DVap]

Rather than hijack this whole thread (which I may be guilty of), I've gone ahead and blog-posted my views on the studies. Feel free to drop by for a read and post a comment to tell me I'm an idiot if you're so inclined.

 

[isande]

A bit more specific in my case:

I smoked two packs a day of Pall Mall Light 100s. Switched to lights very early on because full flavored cigs tend to irritate my mouth. Long, hard, frequent pulls, deeply inhaled. The reason I smoked Pall Malls is because they burn very slowly and I could manage to smoke "only" two packs (rather than three or four!) a day.

I was definitely one of the "insatiable" types, though. At times, I would go through a whole pack in a few hours and never felt the slightest bit of unpleasantness other than my lungs complaining the next morning.

So, I picked up the e-cig in an attempt to cut expenses mostly, but also because I was intrigued by the flavors. Started with 24mg, then 36, then 48... vaping 4 to 5 ml a day. Literally breathing through it, one drag after another, not even stopping for air, vapor pouring out of my nostils while inhaling the next drag.. LOL

And yet, I had terrible concentration problems and headaches. I kept this up for a couple of months but still needed to have several analogs a day to be at all effective at work.

It was immediately obvious to me when I first tried one of the stronger Swedish snus that it was entirely nicotine rather than habit for me. I've had zero desire to smoke or vape since I picked up snus, but I was jonesing constantly while vaping.

My husband smoked the same cigarettes, but about half as many as I did. His story is close to mine except he didn't try so hard to make the e-cig work. He'd vape for half an hour then smoke an analog. Dropped the analogs entirely with his first snus portion.

What I find baffling is that my brother -- who smoked more and stronger cigs than I did, and smoked them just as hard -- has had great success with vaping 24mg. Perhaps the habit was more of a factor for him. In fact, I know it was, because he tried to stop smoking with American dip and would wind up smoking while dipping because he needed the hand-to-mouth...

--K, certified nicotine junkie

 

[Stubby]

Yes isande, there are similar stories over at snuson.

 

[IANAN]

That's the same link I supplied in my earlier post http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-we-getting-we-not-nicotine-3.html#post675015 and the test subject (happily) posted directly following that post saying his levels were at about 15% of what would be expected: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-we-getting-we-not-nicotine-3.html#post675043

And there's this http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...daily-docket-sheet-update-243.html#post677284 post, that I also linked to in that earlier post of mine, from someone who took part in a clinical trial:

This is very curious.... We need more blood tests and I am curious if how they used the e-cig matters. Was there any instructions as to how to use it. I am thinking the longer you hold the vapor in the mouth the more time it has to absorb through the lining of the mouth and if you exhale through the nose it also allows for absorption there also.

I am in a third group-- The still smoking group while vaping..... My personal experience is that I want to use the e-cig while smoking an analog.... This desire is becoming more and more prevalent.

If it was pure placebo this would not be the case .

 

[DVap]

A bit more specific in my case:

I smoked two packs a day of Pall Mall Light 100s. Switched to lights very early on because full flavored cigs tend to irritate my mouth. Long, hard, frequent pulls, deeply inhaled. The reason I smoked Pall Malls is because they burn very slowly and I could manage to smoke "only" two packs (rather than three or four!) a day.

I was definitely one of the "insatiable" types, though. At times, I would go through a whole pack in a few hours and never felt the slightest bit of unpleasantness other than my lungs complaining the next morning.

So, I picked up the e-cig in an attempt to cut expenses mostly, but also because I was intrigued by the flavors. Started with 24mg, then 36, then 48... vaping 4 to 5 ml a day. Literally breathing through it, one drag after another, not even stopping for air, vapor pouring out of my nostils while inhaling the next drag.. LOL

And yet, I had terrible concentration problems and headaches. I kept this up for a couple of months but still needed to have several analogs a day to be at all effective at work.

It was immediately obvious to me when I first tried one of the stronger Swedish snus that it was entirely nicotine rather than habit for me. I've had zero desire to smoke or vape since I picked up snus, but I was jonesing constantly while vaping.

My husband smoked the same cigarettes, but about half as many as I did. His story is close to mine except he didn't try so hard to make the e-cig work. He'd vape for half an hour then smoke an analog. Dropped the analogs entirely with his first snus portion.

What I find baffling is that my brother -- who smoked more and stronger cigs than I did, and smoked them just as hard -- has had great success with vaping 24mg. Perhaps the habit was more of a factor for him. In fact, I know it was, because he tried to stop smoking with American dip and would wind up smoking while dipping because he needed the hand-to-mouth...

--K, certified nicotine junkie

Interesting, very much so.

It may be that we have 3 types of tobacco addicts:

1. Those who can fairly easily do without or substitute vaping at modest levels.

2. Those who can't easily do without, but can substitute vaping at higher levels.

3. Those who can't easily do without, and vaping doesn't work at any level.

So why does group 3 exist? Why can they vape 36 mg until they're blue and still not get what they're looking for, only to add some snus and find they're OK with the vaping/snus combination? I hazard to say that there's something in the snus that isn't in the e-liquid, and it's not about nicotine. For this group, it seems that a co-factor exists, a secondary addiction, or a synergist for the existing nicotine addiction. Very simply, they need part A and part B. Vaping only provides part A (the nicotine), tobacco products must supplement, boosting part A (nicotine), but perhaps far more importantly, providing the part B which is absent from vaping.

 

[isande]

Interesting, very much so.

It may be that we have 3 types of tobacco addicts:

1. Those who can fairly easily do without or substitute vaping at modest levels.

2. Those who can't easily do without, but can substitute vaping at higher levels.

3. Those who can't easily do without, and vaping doesn't work at any level.

So why does group 3 exist? Why can they vape 36 mg until they're blue and still not get what they're looking for, only to add some snus and find they're OK with the vaping/snus combination? I hazard to say that there's something in the snus that isn't in the e-liquid, and it's not about nicotine. For this group, it seems that a co-factor exists, a secondary addiction, or a synergist for the existing nicotine addiction. Very simply, they need part A and part B. Vaping only provides part A (the nicotine), tobacco products must supplement, boosting part A (nicotine), but perhaps far more importantly, providing the part B which is absent from vaping.

I also suspect this is the case. I quit smoking for two months once, using patches and 4 mg gum. Even after two months of getting massive amounts of nicotine (two 21 mg patches on 24/7 + 20+ pieces of 4 mg gum a day) I still felt *terrible*. Needless to say, I went back to smoking...

On the bright side, I feel GREAT on snus and haven't desired a cigarette once since I started using it regularly. As for my e-cigs, well, they're getting a little dusty from lack of use these days.

Oh, one thing of possible interest:
The subjective feeling I get from straight nicotine vs. tobacco is very different.

With pure nicotine, whether from getting an accidental mouthful of juice, vaping extreme nicotine concentrations or using a lot of nic gum... the "buzz" is harsh and unpleasant. More of a tense feeling in my head than anything... as if a big ugly headahe is about to creep up on me. Oh, and I still want to smoke. And I have in that situation, and felt immediately better.

With tobacco, whether it be a cigarette, a cigar, or snus, what I feel is almost the opposite. Rather than growing tension, it's relief and pleasure, like having a cold glass of lemonade on a hot day, urinating after a six-hour long bus trip... "Ahhhhhhhhhh..."

IMO, it's not just nicotine at work (at least for me).

--K

 

[olderthandirt]

I apparently fit this 3rd group as well. To avoid being redundant w/ respect to previous posts my .02 will be brief.

Weekdays = 2 to 2.5ml of 36mg, occasional 6/7 drops of 48mg.

Weekends = 3 to 4ml of 36mg, hard telling how much 48mg.

The amount used is based on measured ml's by the way, not number of carts approximation.

Added snus to the mix, I'm at perhaps 5 portions a day currently, and the amount of liquid I'm vaping has been reduced by half if not a little more.

w/o snus, sort of sane. Vape and snus together, well still only sort of sane if you were to ask "her", but maintaining at least.