So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[ladybug]

Dvap, your posts are terrific. I've followed you in the other threads. Chemistry aside for a moment, the only bottom line for me is blood nicotine level and per puff nicotine delivery.

When e-smoking can move my blood nicotine level to what I had as a former 30-a-day cigarette smoker .. whoopee. Until then, I'm nicotine deprived as an e-smoker and get what I need from snus, nasal snuff, and disssolvables used at the same time as I vape 36mg liquid.

Hey Tbob! I am the same way! I use everything,snus and dissolvables and can vape at the same time! It keeps me sane,and I use very high nic juice,no problem for me and it is keeping me off ciggs! So,I think DVap is on the right track,as I have been trying to follow his threads also,but get a little confused sometimes about what he is saying. I do find the chemist very interesting though!

 

[ladybug]

i think some of us are.. i dont think they are always "illness" issues.. as i have said elsewhere.. my eldest son has suffered all his adult life from severe underlying issues.. like chronic schizophrenia.. he is basically okay but needs chemicals to remain so..

a few days ago i said these exact words to his psychiaterist.. the lunatic sits staring at the wall.. he is happy.. do we leave him there... he made no attempt to answer..

lots of mental health suffers are heavy smokers.. the mind doctors are only too aware that smoking is a self applied part of the drug therapy those under their care end up having to take..

as for me.. i need it (nicotine) simply to tolerate the rest of the world which i consider not entirely sane... he he he

trog

I love my nicotene! And the rest of the world is insane

 

[DVap]

Hey Tbob! I am the same way! I use everything,snus and dissolvables and can vape at the same time! It keeps me sane,and I use very high nic juice,no problem for me and it is keeping me off ciggs! So,I think DVap is on the right track,as I have been trying to follow his threads also,but get a little confused sometimes about what he is saying. I do find the chemist very interesting though!

Yea, I get a little confused too sometimes about what I'm saying.

 

[Stubby]

Quadrant 1: Low nicotine predisposition, low MAOI presdispostion.
Quadrant 2: Low nicotine predisposition, high MAOI predisposition.
Quadrant 3: High nicotine predisposition, high MAIO predisposition.
Quadrant 4: High nicotine predisposition, low MAOI predisposition.

Accepting that each person smokes more or less for nicotine and more or less for MAOI's, how might individuals in each quadrant stop smoking tobacco in a most appropriate and satisfactory manner?

Individuals in quadrant 1 might be expected to do well vaping a low to moderate strength e-liquid as an alternate to smoking.

Individuals in quadrant 4 might be expected to do well will vaping a higher strength e-liquid as an alternate to smoking.

Individuals in quadrant 2 might be expected to have a fair deal of trouble with vaping alone as an alternate to smoking. These individuals might find satisfaction with a low to moderate strength e-liquid supplemented by snus.

Individuals in quadrant 3 might be expected to find vaping wholly unsatisfactory as an alternate to smoking. These individuals might find satisfaction with a higher strength e-liquid supplemented by snus.

It should be noted that since snus contains both nicotine and tobacco MAOI's, some individuals may find that they prefer snus to vaping, and quit vaping or smoking entirely. There appears to be a fair deal of anecdotal evidence for this in the snus community.

Now that's starting to fit. Goes a long way towards explaining the different reactions we're getting with e-cigs. I fit in with the last paragraph.

This could go a long ways towards getting people off the cigs and on to reduced harm products. A bit more pragmatic then the one size fits all, but it may just work.

 

[LameBMX]

Great concept DVap! I was not aware of MAOI's in tobacco. I had referred previously to tobacco have something addictive more than nicotine, due to my craving a hit when drunk. Even though I know that hit will taste like trash.

 

[Agent309]

This has been a very interesting thread to read, and has given me a little bit of insight into my newly acquired vaping habits. When using my e-cig, I'm always getting some minute part of the liquid directly on my lips, and I feel the nicotine fuzziness I used to experience when I would chew the gum. When using the stronger 36mg juice, I notice this a lot, and I like it A LOT. When I use some of the flavored juices, that come in the 24mg strengths, I don't notice this effect nearly as much, and I vape them constantly. The 36mg does give me a better hit, and allows me to put down the e-cig for a bit (unless I am drinking alcohol, in which case I keep a battery charging constantly).

That being said, I also have an e-pipe (des601) and it's high strength cartridges are labeled 18Mg, and are somewhat maple flavored. I get an awesome enjoyment out of them, I get a good hit, and feel relaxed from using the pipe. I still don't want to put it down. When I refill it with the 36mg e-juice, I still get a nice hit, but it's not as relaxing as the 18 mg pipe juice. I know the pipe cartridges are coming from a difference source than the regular e juice, so I am under the opinion as others have said that all juice is not created equal.

 

[DVap]

Interesting to note:

Here's something from the National Institute on Drug Abuse.

You'll notice a myopic focus on nicotine. The M.D.'s and Ph.D's go on and on with not a hint of any other factor being considered, even tangentially, in tobacco addiction.

Do we know something they don't, or have they drunken too deeply of the kool-aid?

 

[frankie1]

I had a lengthy discussion with Kin earlier about MAOIs in tobacco. This is the thread:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-nicotine-absorption-addictiveness-maois.html

Certainly was interesting read! I think the MAOIs are my Achiles heel. I am having to rethink my strategy!

 

[Thumbscrew]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up before or if there's any validity to it - but are all 'analogues' more or less made with the same additives from one manufacturer to the next? (or even from brand to brand from the same manufacturer?)

If not;

- Is there any possibility that those having a harder time with nicotine replacements may be 'missing' other ingredients that other analogue smokers may have not come in contact with, or at different levels?

And while I don't know a darn thing about chemistry or how nicotine interacts with the body - is there any chance that any of these other ingredients may effect the speed at which nicotine is absorbed/dissipated in/from the bloodstream that may account for the differences in nic levels during blood tests?

My apologies if either question's been answered/tested, but as someone who's having a bit of a hard time with the transition this is an interesting thread

 

[DVap]

I'm not sure if this has been brought up before or if there's any validity to it - but are all 'analogues' more or less made with the same additives from one manufacturer to the next? (or even from brand to brand from the same manufacturer?)

If not;

- Is there any possibility that those having a harder time with nicotine replacements may be 'missing' other ingredients that other analogue smokers may have not come in contact with, or at different levels?

And while I don't know a darn thing about chemistry or how nicotine interacts with the body - is there any chance that any of these other ingredients may effect the speed at which nicotine is absorbed/dissipated in/from the bloodstream that may account for the differences in nic levels during blood tests?

My apologies if either question's been answered/tested, but as someone who's having a bit of a hard time with the transition this is an interesting thread

I believe that MAOI's in tobacco come from the tobacco itself. Just as different tobacco varieties have more or less nicotine, it is reasonable to expect that different tobacco varieties also have more or less MAOI's. The nicotine content of tobacco is what gets all the attention, we know how much nicotine we get from an analog, it's tested and reported. Testing/reporting of tobacco MAOI's, on the other hand, is pretty much nonexistent.

Nicotine itself enters the blood via the mouth, respiratory tract, and lungs. I have trouble seeing how co-factors can modify the mechanics of absorption. Something that must be considered is that nicotine is quoted as having a half-life of 2 hours... but this is an average. Some individuals may metabolize it much faster or much slower. Now the hard part is what happens on the brain side of the blood/brain barrier... do MAOI's work to potentiate nicotine, or do they work independent of nicotine? Dunno.

If you're vaping 36 mg, and you're still going crazy, you've got an issue other than nicotine, and MAOI's are currently the prime suspect.

 

[IANAN]

Interesting to note:

Here's something from the National Institute on Drug Abuse.

You'll notice a myopic focus on nicotine. The M.D.'s and Ph.D's go on and on with not a hint of any other factor being considered, even tangentially, in tobacco addiction.

Do we know something they don't, or have they drunken too deeply of the kool-aid?

Most NRTs treatment courses include Zyban or Welbutrin... or even Chantix- All are antidepressants. -Someone knows that nicotine alone won't cut it... even if these yahoos won't admit it.

 

[Vaporer]

Thumb,

The tobacco companies are required to flie a list of ingredients used in that year in thier product. Not %'s of what. It has a high non disclosure agreement that has to be signed to just read it. Making a copy for later use is a felony. For real..look it up.
They have posted lists that go into the 500's + of additives.

They have admitted to adding behavioral control substances before and ingredients that promote nic adsorbtion even a fire ......ent as of late to the paper.

With that being said, figure they can do what they want , say as little as they want, and watch what happens for a profitable sales outcome. They report to basically no one.

Edit: I agree on some being in tobacco and not just the nicotine. I can use a snus and go for a longer time than just vaping. Vaping a higher level nic helps, but its not the same. I'd agree that even those "other" ingredients can be tweaked for maximum effectiveness.

 

[Araddoman]

Very unscientific, sure, but my own experience has convinced me that the ecig is only an alternative, like they say, not a replacement. I enjoy that I am now officially a non-smoker, but I do miss my analogs, sometimes. Over 30 years of smoking the nastiest, harshest tobacco out there and I enjoyed it all. Yes, I still got a "buzz" every morning with the first of the day and anytime I went a longer than normal period without. Ecigs don't provide that. Like my tobacco, it didn't take me long to locate and buy the highest strength nic (75mg) I could find to reproduce the same effect. I found out I could get myself feeling oogy, but that's as far as it went, no "buzz", the feeling of calm, brain stimulus, not even a good bowel movement. I've described to my wife (a lifetime non-smoker) it's kind of like being in a mental desert. Just kind of a constant mood instead of the rewarding uplift, satisfying focus I got after having a smoke. Yes, there's no doubt alot more at play here than just the nic, but atleast I can quench the craving. I just wish I could have a good bowel movement, Ha.

Your "mental desert" reference is a great description of how I would describe my frame of mind after 8 days now of vaping with no smokes at all. How long does it take for this "mental desert" feeling to go away? While the important thing is that e-cigs (only tried 24mg) completely do away with cravings, it would be very good to hear that whole "mental desert" stuff goes away or tends to fade after extended time on e-cigs. Can anyone chime in on this one?

 

[DVap]

Your "mental desert" reference is a great description of how I would describe my frame of mind after 8 days now of vaping with no smokes at all. How long does it take for this "mental desert" feeling to go away? While the important thing is that e-cigs (only tried 24mg) completely do away with cravings, it would be very good to hear that whole "mental desert" stuff goes away or tends to fade after extended time on e-cigs. Can anyone chime in on this one?

I'll give it a shot.

From my experience, it appears that the effects of nicotine on the brain are reversible. The first time I quit was after 14 years of analogs, I felt great within a few days, and stayed quit for 8 years. After starting up again, and finally replacing analogs with vaping, I feel great.

Here's the theory I'm left with: For some people, their brains respond strongly to tobacco MAOI's. After years of use, the brain is either slow to revert back to a pre-analog balance, or is simply unable to revert. For these people, the difficulty they have with vaping may suggest the effect of MAIO's are more or less irreversible.

Give vaping supplemented by snus a try.

 

[IANAN]

Or you can e-smoke while using Snus.... Gives you a very wicked high.

The problem most people will have with Snus is that it feels like you are holding a gauze pad , like from the dentist, in your upper jaw for 20-30 minutes.

Snus- you just have to try it to see if its for you-- I think its like a 1.80 for a pack of 12 right now-- so you aren't out that much cash.

 

[frankie1]

I read somewhere in my research, but not on this forum, that the suspicion, at least by some professionals, is that early onset, long term use of tobacco actually changes the chemical structure of the brain. For those individuals, tobacco cessation may be impossible. I'll try to find that information again and post it here.

 

[DVap]

Or you can e-smoke while using Snus.... Gives you a very wicked high.

The problem most people will have with Snus is that it feels like you are holding a gauze pad , like from the dentist, in your upper jaw for 20-30 minutes.

Snus- you just have to try it to see if its for you-- I think its like a 1.80 for a pack of 12 right now-- so you aren't out that much cash.

I find that snus under the front of the upper lip feels a bit uncomfortable. When I slide it more to the side over the molars, it's much better. Better still back on the side under the lower lip.

 

[frankie1]

My only experience with oral tobacco use was when I was about 10 and resulted in a very severe experience with vomiting!

 

[IANAN]

Snus isn't like chewing- its more like using the Nicotine gum but better and you don't chew it up... Its much better than just about any other oral tobacco... Its still not for everyone though.

 

[Vaporer]

snus isnt for everyone. But I find a strange reaction.
When adding snus to my vaping, I can go longer between vaping sessions. I dont have that " something is still missing feeling". WHen using dissolvable Ariva or Stonewall tobacco with vaping, the nic craving is suppressed faster, but the missing thing is still there.

snus, being more "less refined" than dissolvables has had the ingredient removed that causes this to occur. IMO from my stats and cravings log.

As far as placement of the snus portion, I find anywhere between the gum and lip is well suited and little difference is noted.

This would lead me to believe that snus still has the MOAI's in it, occuring in tobacco, that is either reduced or removed by processing from the dissolvables.