So, has anyone seen any PA "Floor Tax" forms yet? I'm concerned!

[swampergene]

That's right, with Pennsylvania's vape tax taking effect in less than a month, I as a consumer am very concerned. You can talk to different retailers and ask "What exactly IS going to be taxed?" and you're almost sure to get a different answer every time...from "EVERYTHING!" to "Who knows?".

I find this extremely troubling as the state has published no clear guides for the consumer - leaving the door wide open for illegally-levied taxes against the consumer.

The way Act 12 reads, there is a very NARROW range of taxable items...basically all fluids, all cig-alikes, and a select few mod/atomizer ASSEMBLIES. No where is there authority given to collect a PA tax on batteries, coils, separately packaged parts including mods or atomizers of any kind, wire, cotton, and much more. In fact, aside from juice...the PA tax should have VERY LITTLE effect on stand-alone vape shop products. The key is in the definitions and in the very clear use of the word "and".

I will repeat myself from a post I made earlier...this tax code looks to be written by people who's prep work consisted of a trip to the local mini mart. And WE the consumers need this clarified as do the many vape shops who need to comply. Act 12 needs to be repealed immediately before unfair charges are levied against innocent consumers!

 

[Verb]

What is the very clear use of the word "and" you are referring to?

I was wondering where to find the form for consumer importer. October's is due by the 20th of November.

 

[swampergene]

What is the very clear use of the word "and" you are referring to?

I was wondering where to find the form for consumer importer. October's is due by the 20th of November.

In the definition of an "electronic cigarette".

 

[swampergene]

"An electronic oral device, such as one composed of a heating element AND battery or electronic circuit, or both, which produces a vapor of nicotine or any other substance and the use of or inhalation of which simulates smoking."

That it. Caps on the important "and".

I'll use my Smok Hpriv as an example, which did not come in "kit" form. It was sold as packaged with no atomizer, hence no "heating element" as needed per the definition.

As a second example I'll use my Crown tank, which has a heating element but no battery or electronic circuit.

By the definition, these things need to be "together". The term "such as" leaves a little room for style variations, but to me this definition clearly hits finished products and not parts.

 

[KODIAK (TM)]

but to me this definition clearly hits finished products and not parts.

Then why would it have, "or both" at the end?

Regardless of the dimwit that wrote this legislation I believe the "spirit" of the law means you are screwed on just about everything.

 

[swampergene]

The "or both" refers to an item having:

A) a battery
B) an electronic circuit
C) a battery and an electronic circuit

So to fit the definition of a taxable "electronic cigarette" the item would need to have one of the three above conditions in place AND a heating element.

This is tax, it needs to be clear.

 

[skoony]

The "or both" refers to an item having:

A) a battery
B) an electronic circuit
C) a battery and an electronic circuit

So to fit the definition of a taxable "electronic cigarette" the item would need to have one of the three above conditions in place AND a heating element.

This is tax, it needs to be clear.

A coil is a electronic circuit. It's a very rudimentary circuit.
The simplest e- cigarette contains the following.
The battery. (power source)
A switch and coil. (the circuit)
Electronic oral device covers the rest.
Regards
Mike

 

[Princessdee]

I found this: http://www.revenue.pa.gov/GeneralTa...rmation/Documents/tobacco_products_tax_qa.pdf

Bottom left of page 1:
What vapor products are covered by the tax? E-cigarettes and their components commonly referred to as “mods” and any liquid or substance that is put in e-cigarettes or that is sold for use in e-cigarettes.

(But no form. Looks like you have to; as an individual; figure it up and send them a check all by yourself. Dunno about business forms.)

 

[swampergene]

Thank you. This gives some great info to present to my local rep (who did not agree with the tax).

The fact that even a handful of experienced vapers can't reach an easy agreement on the terms says a lot.

Regarding that QnA bit about what's taxed...that hardly helps a consumer. And again shows their ignorance...a mod of and sort sold on it's own doesn't fit their own definition. Without any sort of atomizer, it does not include a heating element.

 

[Princessdee]

Agreed, It's gonna be difficult to pay when you don't know what to pay for. Just send them a check for everything you bought and hope for a refund on the part that doesn't meet their unspecified criteria? Yeah, that'll happen.
At the very least, we can plead ignorance. "I didn't know that was covered. Doesn't read like it is"

 

[KODIAK (TM)]

On the bright side, there's so much crap on the market the PA Tax authorities' heads are going to explode trying to sort it all out.

 

[retired1]

On the bright side, there's so much crap on the market the PA Tax authorities' heads are going to explode trying to sort it all out.

Not really. They'll just adopt the following form.

 

[swampergene]

I'm going to try to arrange a meeting with my rep and of I get one, I'm going to take the items I mentioned in the original post as well as a single battery, a coil, and some other new items that are "components" and ask her to explain to me - using the tax code - how each one is subject to their tax. If they can't tell us what we owe tax on, they have no business taking money from us. They are not a regulatory body or a deeming authority.

 

[Verb]

"An electronic oral device, such as one composed of a heating element AND battery or electronic circuit, or both, which produces a vapor of nicotine or any other substance and the use of or inhalation of which simulates smoking."

That it. Caps on the important "and".

I'll use my Smok Hpriv as an example, which did not come in "kit" form. It was sold as packaged with no atomizer, hence no "heating element" as needed per the definition.

As a second example I'll use my Crown tank, which has a heating element but no battery or electronic circuit.

By the definition, these things need to be "together". The term "such as" leaves a little room for style variations, but to me this definition clearly hits finished products and not parts.

That AND is in the "such as" section. The such as section is not part of the actual definition. It's just there to add clarification or confusion.

Once the superfluous language is removed it reads: An electronic oral device ... which produces a vapor of ... any ... substance and the use of ... which simulates smoking.

 

[swampergene]

So...apply that to a battery. To a mod that is sold without a battery or atomizer. To an atomizer that is sold without any sort of power supply...not one of those items can be defined under the law. Assembled together, yes they can, but separately? The code doesn't mention parts or components.

 

[KODIAK (TM)]

So...apply that to a battery. To a mod that is sold without a battery or atomizer. To an atomizer that is sold without any sort of power supply...not one of those items can be defined under the law. Assembled together, yes they can, but separately? The code doesn't mention parts or components.

While I sympathize with my vaping PA brethren I think you're splitting hairs. Again, it's the "spirit" of the legislation a judge will use to interpret such ambiguities and determine an outcome. They are quite used to imbecilic language in law.

 

[swampergene]

Oh I agree wholeheartedly, however I think there may be a premise here.

Most laws rely on intent. The intent of this act is to provide a basis for taxing "electronic cigarettes" and I'm going strictly by their words in saying that parts or components are not explicitly identified as taxable tobacco products.

The main point though is this...which is why I also asked if anyone has seen the floor tax form (for the record, there IS one for the cigarette floor tax on the state dept of revenue site, the only thing on the "other tobacco products" page is a license for i.e. Manufacturer - retailer - etc). When it comes to taxes, it is reprehensible to leave the public in he dark about the way you a government intends to take their money. It's obvious that they put insufficient research into the matter, and have left us with a marketplace that leaves consumers wide open for fraud in the name of "taxes". As a consumer, we have the right to know exactly how a tax affects us, they can't just say "however we decide at the time"...it has to be clearly defined by law.

 

[sofarsogood]

The floor tax is intended to close all the vape shops to discourage new vapers. Is it working? My 10-20 year supply of everything specific to vaping will cost me $650. If I paid 40% more than that it would still be the bargain of the century. A vape buddy of mine at work, a youngin from my perspective, vapes only 75 mg of nic per week (but the clouds are huge). A liter of 100 mg would last him 25 years. I need 5 liters to go 20 years and if I hold my breath for a few seconds there's no cloud, sigh.

 

[Verb]

If I pack my RDA with tobacco and use an unwicked coil to light it, my pipe will be free of excise tax.

 

[smokin95]

Will the tax apply pure vg or pg?