FDA So what might really happen with regulations/bans? Should we be stocking up?

[aikanae1]

Nicotine is definatley the key and I think a black market for that will be much harder than some seem to think it will be. Just a week ago UPS paid $40 million in fines for not screening pkgs for prescription pills. FedEx is appealing. So now you have package delivery services being REQUIRED to search packages for contraband + payment gateways and the FDA doesn't need a law to shut those down. I don't think it'll be too much longer before even IMR single cell batteries are given a squeeze since IATA already restricts those; domestic carriers could easily say "ground only" and limit the number of cells per package. Not the same as illegal, but a hassle and more expensive.

Meanwhile there are local laws, taxes that will probably continue to pop up. "Clean Air" organizations are doing everything they can to get vaping included with smoking and this requires no laws or votes. They can get officials to include it in language for parks, multi-housing, all sorts of places that affect large numbers of people.

I don't mean this as a downer. The intention is more to face possibilities because if people really are serious about this, these are the things that need to be figured out. Some people on the forum have been stock-piling since 2009 so there's probably enough to go around for awhile. The reality is that a black market is not a way to grow an industry. It's the worst case scenario. IMO we'd be better off sinking money into organizations determined to fight regulators.

Not everyone will be stocked up. A good 2/3rds of vapers are not plugged into the community and are probably dual users with cigalikes. So one of the first side effects from deeming regulations IMO will be a spike in smoking rates. That'll be fun to watch how that's explained - and I'm sure they'll try.

 

[noel18]

Politicians follow the money. I expect tighter regulations at some point in the future. Who knows when. The manufacturing of ecig products will go to the corporation that forks over the most money to the politicians. Probably large corporations. The smaller suppliers will suffer the wrath of the government.

 

[wv2win]

Nicotine is definatley the key and I think a black market for that will be much harder than some seem to think it will be. Just a week ago UPS paid $40 million in fines for not screening pkgs for prescription pills. FedEx is appealing. So now you have package delivery services being REQUIRED to search packages for contraband + payment gateways and the FDA doesn't need a law to shut those down. I don't think it'll be too much longer before even IMR single cell batteries are given a squeeze since IATA already restricts those; domestic carriers could easily say "ground only" and limit the number of cells per package. Not the same as illegal, but a hassle and more expensive.

Meanwhile there are local laws, taxes that will probably continue to pop up. "Clean Air" organizations are doing everything they can to get vaping included with smoking and this requires no laws or votes. They can get officials to include it in language for parks, multi-housing, all sorts of places that affect large numbers of people.

I don't mean this as a downer. The intention is more to face possibilities because if people really are serious about this, these are the things that need to be figured out. Some people on the forum have been stock-piling since 2009 so there's probably enough to go around for awhile. The reality is that a black market is not a way to grow an industry. It's the worst case scenario. IMO we'd be better off sinking money into organizations determined to fight regulators.

Not everyone will be stocked up. A good 2/3rds of vapers are not plugged into the community and are probably dual users with cigalikes. So one of the first side effects from deeming regulations IMO will be a spike in smoking rates. That'll be fun to watch how that's explained - and I'm sure they'll try.

Well stated.

 

[Kent C]

Well stated.

Ditto.......

 

[DC2]

Nicotine is definatley the key and I think a black market for that will be much harder than some seem to think it will be. Just a week ago UPS paid $40 million in fines for not screening pkgs for prescription pills. FedEx is appealing. So now you have package delivery services being REQUIRED to search packages for contraband + payment gateways and the FDA doesn't need a law to shut those down. I don't think it'll be too much longer before even IMR single cell batteries are given a squeeze since IATA already restricts those; domestic carriers could easily say "ground only" and limit the number of cells per package. Not the same as illegal, but a hassle and more expensive.

Meanwhile there are local laws, taxes that will probably continue to pop up. "Clean Air" organizations are doing everything they can to get vaping included with smoking and this requires no laws or votes. They can get officials to include it in language for parks, multi-housing, all sorts of places that affect large numbers of people.

I don't mean this as a downer. The intention is more to face possibilities because if people really are serious about this, these are the things that need to be figured out. Some people on the forum have been stock-piling since 2009 so there's probably enough to go around for awhile. The reality is that a black market is not a way to grow an industry. It's the worst case scenario. IMO we'd be better off sinking money into organizations determined to fight regulators.

Not everyone will be stocked up. A good 2/3rds of vapers are not plugged into the community and are probably dual users with cigalikes. So one of the first side effects from deeming regulations IMO will be a spike in smoking rates. That'll be fun to watch how that's explained - and I'm sure they'll try.

Great post..........

 

[Kent C]

Those involved in RYO cigs saw these same type of actions taken - the 'operation choke' that started with paypal, then credit cards, then bank wires, along with restrictions is shipping. I don't need to mention restrictions in the USPS.

 

[aikanae1]

If I buy RYO supplies online, including the tubes, the cc company automatically sends information to the state. I get a bill for the tax. Technically, there are fines and criminal penalties even for a single person. Online retailers fought back by having people buy tokens / coupons / reward points with their cc and then use those for exchange. No dice. Didn't even make a good legal case.

I think it's important to realize the PACT act was ushered through very swiftly. One day legal and the next day not, by the time the federal law was passed most states had already passed restrictions and bans on RYO making it a mute point by the time the federal law was passed. They (fed) estimated over 4,000 - 5,000 small business were shuttered. Many of these were small mom and pops with < 10 employees who had sunk life savings into machines that would churn out rolled cigarettes.

Did they do it for the children? Heck no. The only advertising campaign needed was that RYO "was an end run around taxes". That was acceptable and neither political party objected. They continue to put pressure on pipe tobacco sellers since that can also be used for cigarettes. It's on-going. No one heard the smokers who wanted chemical free tobacco.

So the fact they've already abandoned the excuse that it's "for taxes" I think is a good sign that vapers have already pushed them into coming up with more. This pressure has to continue to mount in greater and greater numbers for them to feel it. Numbers do count and I wish there had been a much stronger membership drive for CASAA long before now.

Over these next two years it will come down to getting as many smokers as possible into vaping and into speaking up for vaping. I expect we'll start seeing business' divide into a variety of categories; mainly those who are in it until death (yea!) and those who start trailing off their investment in vaping. The result will be progessively less innovation and product choices. It might not even be noticable at first, just 1,000 new mods rather than 2,000 and so on.

Like it or not, "we" are it. The success or failure of vaping. "We" have to jazz up vendors, "we" have to make signing up with CASAA fun and "we" have to tell non-smokers that vaping is the way forward to a smoke free world.

If NRT products worked, we wouldn't still have so many smokers (70% want to quit).
If vaping were a gateway, then youth smoking rates would not have dropped. Same with adult smoking.
We know vaping is better than smoking. It's not the same as being mislead by tobacco companies "light" cigarettes.
Yea I could go on. I'm preaching to the choir.

The sad fact is that we do NOT have the response needed to make a difference. People have adjusted, aclimated to the idea and 2 months ago they weren't. I don't know how to reawaken that passion again.

 

[zoiDman]

...

The sad fact is that we do NOT have the response needed to make a difference. People have adjusted, aclimated to the idea and 2 months ago they weren't. I don't know how to reawaken that passion again.

...

I does seem that there is No Sense of Urgency Today. Where as 2 Months ago, as you mentioned, this Board was On Fire.

 

[GaryInTexas]

I think our lot unfortunately was/is in the hands of the media and HOW they report on vaping. Had this been reported on by honest investigative journalist showing the lives being saved, cost savings and some of the tests showing the general benign nature of vaping, I don't think we would be having these battles in every city, state, and Fed gov agency like we do now. Instead they just accepted their talking points from the talking heads and called it news. Accepted by the non smoking population as fact so any and all restrictions and taxes will be welcomed by them.
To change our course of events, we would have to change how it is reported to the public. I don't even know if that's possible, so I'm stocked up.

 

[DC2]

I think our lot unfortunately was/is in the hands of the media and HOW they report on vaping. Had this been reported on by honest investigative journalist showing the lives being saved, cost savings and some of the tests showing the general benign nature of vaping, I don't think we would be having these battles in every city, state, and Fed gov agency like we do now. Instead they just accepted their talking points from the talking heads and called it news. Accepted by the non smoking population as fact so any and all restrictions and taxes will be welcomed by them.
To change our course of events, we would have to change how it is reported to the public. I don't even know if that's possible, so I'm stocked up.

Your are 158% correct.

It always amazes me how little blame the mainstream media is getting in all of this.
If it weren't for them, we would have won this thing a long time ago.

 

[wv2win]

...............................

Numbers do count and I wish there had been a much stronger membership drive for CASAA long before now.

...............................

Many of us felt that way for the last two years. Unfortunately, there are ECF members who don't want anyone to encourage CASAA membership even on a vaping forum. You have to wonder what their true intention is on this forum.

I think it is helpful to other ECF members, especially newer members, to read what others are doing in their community to increase CASAA membership and get the word out on the Deeming regulations. Something as simple as passing out CASAA business cards can have a positive impact. But it will help give others the incentive to do the same if they read what fellow vapers are doing on behalf of the community.

 

[aikanae1]

Luv CASAA, so don't misunderstand - but they seemed to put a damper on all out pushes for membership drives. They weren't going to ask for one to make sure they appeared truly "grass roots". Honesty and integrity hurts sometimes, sad to say.

I think people tend to overlook that the groups we are fighting are pro's at getting media attention, that is a large part of what they do and that is how the system works. Press releases = pre written news story. They can dump them directly into news wire services ($$$$$) 70% of investigative journalists were let go of by 2003, not to mention the confusion between fact vs. opinion and vice versa - or a public figure tossing out a statement in an unrelated article one day, then it's printed and the next day it's "whatever news source says this is true" using the original statement. Word choices and framing the debate are 2 of the most powerful weapons available.

For all the comments about political parties, the vaping industry still does not have a single congress person in DC representing our cause - not one putting action behind words. They can say whatever they want. I haven't read a single letter yet that lead me to believe they were ready to take action. I'd almost bet if I wrote in to the most positive sounding ones only saying I wanted more regulation, etc. I'd get the same thing back with the words tweaked against vaping. We know the opinions from some, like it or not, and they've taken an active stand (ugh). We needed to be at the table while opinions were forming.

What I do know is that people are far more motivated when they think there's a chance, hope. That's what needs to be sold now. Someone posted a vid of the "advocacy aisle" and it looked dead. Bad move. It should have been a celebration of not smoking and full of life to keep the energy up.

 

[DC2]

I can't disagree with any of that...

But I don't know what the answer is.
And I've been trying to figure out that answer for over four years now.

I've tried so many things, I've lost count, and at this point I've nearly given up.

--I've tried rallying threads
--I've tried contests to promote awareness
--I've tried visiting brick and mortars with CASAA information in hand
--I've tried simple-stupid copy and paste rallying letters to send via email

In the end, it seems to be more of an apathy issue on the part of brick and mortars, and also vapers themselves.

At least that's what I've come to believe.
And it honestly makes me sick to my stomach sometimes.

 

[GaryInTexas]

I tried to challenge our local TV commentary personality after a vaping hit piece he aired. After several back and fourths with him, he finally admitted that I had some valid points and wanted permission to publish my comments which I agreed to. So my comments were added to his now 4 day old story on their website which was probably viewed by less than 5 people while 200,000 or so got to see the original hit piece. He actually felt that he was being fair by adding my comments to the web page. Fairness today is measured with ones foot on the scale.

 

[Kent C]

Sen. Richard Burr (R-NC) regarding ecigs at HELP committee hearing:

"If we kill technology and innovation, which is, in essence, what some are attempting to do at the beginning, it’s not going to play a role in reducing the amount of Americans who smoke,” he said. ‘I can remember when opportunities for harm reduction were the goal, but the technology wasn’t there … well now, the technology is there, and how quickly we’ve moved to the point where harm reduction is no longer a goal."

 

[aikanae1]

I know you've gone above and beyond in your efforts however I do think ypu made a huge difference - a legondary one. Calif bills started out pathetic and the response at the end was far more appropiate - including new SFTAFA (I can never remember the letters right) chapters. Without knocking on doors and emails that would not have happened.

I'd like to see much bigger write ups about the Calif experience and the Washington one because I think there's much to be learned by them.


This is the void I feel from CASAA. Due to their desire to remain independent, including other independent business', there's an element missing that could have been used for promotion. And CASAA needed funds from business' to pay for things like the 'big boys' have like news wire services. I don't think vaping as an industry was big enough to support seperation of those interests even if the needs were different. It's always easier to pick out mistakes in hind sight and the truth is no one knows for sure what all the "what if's" are. It's kinda pointless other than I still feel a void.

That auction from VM was brilliant and should have taught CASAA that support is there, including the $$$ if they ASKED for it. I have no doubt it's still there. That advocacy aisle - well, for one thing, what were the promoters thinking when it came to making the decision to seperate them off into their own aisle? That's not atypical of the way many vendors think - business and politics don't mix and that's BS!!!! "Customers don't want to hear politics from us" That is one myth that should have been disspelled long ago. IMO that's a make cash quick company and they don't get the same level of support from me.

The customer chooses which business' to support. Showing off a CASAA, VM, SFTAFA badge and materials is a big thumbs up. Fuzion sent around a video they made to call attention to send something in to Congress. I placed an order.

People need to get over that this is politics. It's not. It's your life. CASAA or someone should have done a campaign just on that myth.

Seperating advocacy groups into their own little corner perpetuates that myth and the promoters should have come under fire for that decision long before the vape meet even opened. Some advocacy group should have objected - loudly.

Hold raffles for signing up. Even handing out donated freebies in the new membership forum had a big impact. A lot of that equipment was used and out of date. That should have been on-going for the last few years. No reason it can't start now. Do a weekly or monthly raffle from new members. The support is there.

But yea, vendors need to play a much bigger roll. Up to and including throwing a piece of CASAA literature into every sale. This is where I question the seperation between individuals vs. business and wonder if the vaping industry is big enough to make such distinctions.

Your job would have been much easier if every single customer asked their vendor if they support CASAA and be prepared to educate them on the importance. I've noticed badges from VM even on some chinese sites (focalecigs). That should be the minimum for a USA vendor. Oh, wait - that could be another campaign too.

In the meantime, it's up to each individual to do their own advocacy and that's really not unreasonable. Calling that "politics" is unreasonable and a dead end.

 

[aikanae1]

I tried to challenge our local TV commentary personality after a vaping hit piece he aired. After several back and fourths with him, he finally admitted that I had some valid points and wanted permission to publish my comments which I agreed to. So my comments were added to his now 4 day old story on their website which was probably viewed by less than 5 people while 200,000 or so got to see the original hit piece. He actually felt that he was being fair by adding my comments to the web page. Fairness today is measured with ones foot on the scale.

But the real value is that the next time a story comes along, that reporter will ask better questions and make better comments, give more context and bring a better balance to the story rather than reporting a press release. Good job!

Retractions, edits, changes have always been on the back page or at the bottom with little notice. That's why the headlines are so important - often people don't even read the story at all. We can't change the world, as nice as that would be. We have to work within.

 

[aikanae1]

Sen. Richard Burr (R-NC) regarding ecigs at HELP committee hearing:

"If we kill technology and innovation, which is, in essence, what some are attempting to do at the beginning, it’s not going to play a role in reducing the amount of Americans who smoke,” he said. ‘I can remember when opportunities for harm reduction were the goal, but the technology wasn’t there … well now, the technology is there, and how quickly we’ve moved to the point where harm reduction is no longer a goal."

That is such an awesome quote.

Do you know Sen. Burr took heat for being at that meeting? He missed the Veterans meeting that was going on at the same time, although I bet he had a staffer at the other one. Anyway, he issued a press release on the Veteran's meeting and video showed he didn't attend. Got quite a HEATED response from many, many veteran related groups. A sheet storm that made national news for several days -> weeks.

I haven't checked, but I wonder if he issued one on ecigs?

 

[Kent C]

That is such an awesome quote.

Do you know Sen. Burr took heat for being at that meeting? He missed the Veterans meeting that was going on at the same time, although I bet he had a staffer at the other one. Anyway, he issued a press release on the Veteran's meeting and video showed he didn't attend. Got quite a HEATED response from many, many veteran related groups. A sheet storm that made national news for several days -> weeks.

I haven't checked, but I wonder if he issued one on ecigs?

I did see the 'heat'. I think that he choose HELP instead, (he had to know he'd take some heat - all get this all the time even the Dems shows even more support than just his quote, imo.

 

[GaryInTexas]

But the real value is that the next time a story comes along, that reporter will ask better questions and make better comments, give more context and bring a better balance to the story rather than reporting a press release. Good job!

Retractions, edits, changes have always been on the back page or at the bottom with little notice. That's why the headlines are so important - often people don't even read the story at all. We can't change the world, as nice as that would be. We have to work within.

I wish you were right and hope you are but they ran another story a couple of months ago. Instead of referring to any of the links I furnished, they just interviewed their expert on vaping who appeared to be from the local head shop and referred to vapor as being nothing but water vapor. Yeah a real expert. Did not look like someone I would trust to cook my fries. The links to the vaping studies and to CAASA I sent them were too much effort for them. I wish that we had a very knowledgeable and well spoken spokesperson who could be contacted and made available by teleconference at short notice so that when local medias wanted to run a vaping story, that person could be contacted and provide a balanced and accurate report.