Soaking and straining tobacco to remove nicotine, then smoking/eating that for WTA

Discussion in 'Nicotine' started by Timberwear, Aug 5, 2010.

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  1. Timberwear

    Timberwear Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    I've been reading this forum for a month, pretty heavily.

    <<I edited my posts to not include all of my life story, for purposes of some anonymity (sp) :) so I'm taking out a lot of stuff :) >>

    2 days ago ordered ecig online from totally wicked, haven't gotten it yet.

    But something has occurred to me: I don't think I'm addicted to nicotine anymore, but I DO need the WTA.

    A month ago I decided to try to quit cigs. It was VERY hard... very... the last 2-3 weeks I've been down to 1-3 american spirit cigs a day... for awhile it was half to 1 cig a day...but then lately started creeping back up... frustrating...

    But what I've come to realize, is that I need the WTA's (maoi or whatever)..

    It treats a depression I have... I've had this depression since I was very young.

    So my PLAN, is this: I'm going to go buy a bunch of american spirit organic loose-leaf tobacco...

    I'm going to soak it in water for 24 hours. Then strain and dry. This will hopefully remove the nicotine I was addicted to before.

    I will then try to just smoke this mixture to see what level I need to get my MAOI's or whatever... -OR- I'm going to experiment with eating it... in very small quantities.

    I did a similar experiment awhile back... I tried toasting the tobacco in the oven... to seemingly remove the nicotine.. and I still have some of that... but I'm not "sure" if thats what I need. Maybe... but I really haven't used it that much. I think the toasting might have destroyed the WTA's somewhat... but hell maybe there is still something about the nicotine that combined with the WTA...again this experiment will hopefully figure that out.

    I think the water soak will get rid of the nicotine more than toasting it...

    Because I think it basically took me 1 REALLY hard week, and another HARD week....to get OVER the nicotine addiction!!! I basically SLEPT for an entire week straight. It REALLY sucked. I think it was part physical AND psychological. I was VERY addicted to the nicotine I think! And I REALLLLLY don't want to get back into that addiction!

    Basically I don't want to get back to HAVING to smoke every half hour or hour JUST to get my nicotine...which... is okay, but its a stimulant I personally don't think I really need... and DEFINITELY something I don't want to get back addicted to. I think its definitely more addictive than caffeine... I think.

    I guess I will find out exactly what it is I want with my experiment.

    But I think this could be a very simple way for all of us to get our MAOI's that we want, or the WTA's... without being seemingly "addicted" to smoking... if you will... I mean, not having to CONSTANTLY smoke throughout the day because its the nicotine that is doing this to us?

    I'm not sure if the effect I want will be apparent if I simply EAT the resulting denicotinized tobacco (in very small quantities), but I will find out. This could be an easy way around all the hassle of having to buy dissolvables, snuff, snus, all that. I'm really not interested in all that. I've tried snus before. Been there done that. The only thing that I'd be interested is in that supposedly new product that is going to hit the market, that denicotinized WTA supplement. But this hopefully will be the exact same thing, and hopefully cheaper?

    I would rather just smoke 3-5 cigs of denicotinized tobacco and deal with possible cancer risk (if thats all it would take for me, i'm not sure how "much" i would smoke)... I would rather do that, then mess with everything else. And if eating works, then I can just do that... talk about EASY! No need to wait for any "developments".

    The other thing i will be doing, is experimenting with adding Passionflower to the ecig no-nic juice once I get it, and see if that works. I really DO love smoking... but I've proven to myself since trying to quit, that I really don't NEED to smoke anymore... its just the depression/anxiety starts getting to me bad, and I'm NOT going down that road anymore.

    But I wonder...how much I still miss the nicotine? I don't THINK I do..but maybe nicotine IS part of it... my experiments will find out. I expect to do this tomorrow and I'll post on my thread.

    Anyone interested in this? Reply to this thread. Thanks. :)
     
  2. keyzygirl

    keyzygirl ECF Guru ECF Veteran

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    Maybe you could just see a doctor and get on antidepressants.
     
  3. Timberwear

    Timberwear Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    Hey keyzgirl... been there, done that...years ago. Paxil worked for me...with lots of side effects. Plus when you withdraw from that it feels like electrical currents are zapping through your head and body... it seems tobacco has reversible MAOI's with no diet restriction... a simple cheap antidepressant that I've come to be used to and seems to work... That is... unless the nicotine has some part in it.

    Actually years ago when I decided I was done with meds, is when I picked up smoking. I decided to do it as an experiment in college. I decided to smoke 3 a day for 6 months. I quit after that. Then picked it up and quit numerous times over the next few years until I just stuck with it.

    For some reason I find it helps. It literally seems to just stop depression for me.

    But yeah, I just don't want to go back to meds. I have to deal with doctor visits, insurance, lots of money, etc..

    And yes, I have tried the other SSRI's... didn't work as well as Paxil though.
     
  4. Timberwear

    Timberwear Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    Well I have started the experiment!

    I just walked to the store and bought 2 packs of loose-leaf Buglar tobacco. I am soaking them in a large bowl of water for 24 hours. That will hopefully de-nicotinize the tobacco while leaving all the other alkaloids present. Are the MAOI alkaloids in tobacco water soluble?

    For now I am only going to allow myself to smoke the tobacco that I did bake in the oven at I believe, 325 for 10 minutes. I'm pretty sure it still has some nicotine. Although its probably very small as I can't really FEEL it. But I do know... one time I was experimenting with eating this baked tobacco... and one time I kept adding more and more of it to this rice and beans I was eating... needless to say it took awhile to digest that, and I almost OD'd. The effect hit me 5 hours later, lasted for 8 hours. My heart was racing non-stop.. at one point I thought I was going to die...pass out..etc... I almost went to the emergency room.

    So was that a nicotine overdose? If it -WAS- the nicotine, then that means even if you bake it for only 10-15 minutes..well... I guess the nicotine doesn't come out all the way :( ha...

    Either way, I do want to stay off the nicotine for now. I find that I'm overall calmer without the nicotine. Things are just more level... And I won't have to be constantly trying to keep my nicotine levels high by constantly smoking.

    Hopefully...hopefully... smoking this denicotinized tobacco will allow me to self-medicate as much MAOI's and whatever magical properties are in tobacco... as much as I want. So that is what I'm allowing myself to do.

    If I find myself getting really depressed/anxious/irritable/angry... at least after an initial detox/withdrawal period of getting off most of the nicotine... then I will have to suspect either that:

    1) the maoi's are water soluble, and leach out when I'm doing the water extraction.

    2) the maoi's work in CONCERT with the nicotine...

    3) or nicotine itself is what is needed for my mood/mental state... at least to my liking.

    I'm pretty sure though... its not the nicotine. We shall see.

    And with that, I just twisted up some of this baked organic american spirit tobacco...with some fresh iced loose leaf organic earl grey tea I made... and I will see where this takes me.

    To be cont...

    Or, forgot to mention. If I do indeed find what I want in this denicotinized tobacco, I will experiment with eating it. If that works, great. Then I'll start growing my own tobacco and doing this, to avoid all the TSNA's...

    At least until they come out with a WTA eliquid with or without the nicotine..haven't decided.
     
  5. Timberwear

    Timberwear Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    One thing I should add. When I smoke the cooked tobacco, I don't really -FEEL- the MAOI's...

    I read that some people could feel the relaxation from a WTA e-liquid they made. Or the relaxation from snus or snuff... compared to just e-cigs in general with pure nicotine...

    I don't know. It could be this particular batch of baked tobacco I have... I could have baked off everything and changed it all. It doesn't feel like much at all actually. I'm guessing its possible the MAOI's you don't get high off of... its just they build up slowly and over say, a week or two or three, you just feel way better? Kinda like how it takes some time when you take a traditional MAO drug like Parnate, for example. At least that is what I've seemed to read on the net. I don't know. I do know that when I have been really depressed recently and smoked regular cigs, it lifted me out of the depression... so.... it could be the nicotine... but also again, it could just be that I need to still test the water-extracted tobacco to see if indeed... the MAOI's do give an immediate effect.

    Like I said, I need to test this batch of denicotinized tobacco from the 24 hour water extract, it might be a different effect. If its a relaxing effect... then I'll suspect that there might be something immediately relaxing... but still I might suspect that the MAOI effect actually doesn't take effect for weeks.

    In other words...maybe -some- of the alkaloid, oils, terpenoids, flavonoids (sp) have that immediate relaxing effect... but that the MAOI effect does take longer to kick in.

    This explains my own issues with depression while trying to quit... and would explain why other people who switched to e-cigs had issues with depression over time. Its all very complicated. Do maoi's kick in fast? I think its probably not so... and that when you feel more mellow/relaxed from a cig or WTA e-liquid... its because your getting something that is immediately relaxing... not necessarily some MAOI effect.

    Because I did read on the net a study or studies that said that... basically they tested the MAOI effect (in so many words) and found that it took some time to take effect. Basically in long term smokers they had higher levels of it then in people who just started smoking for the experiment...

    But I'm really interested in this because I want to feel better without the racyness/anxiety/fast-pacedness I tend to feel with nicotine... but this will all have to be determined as I experiment.. Now that my tolerance is low... its not that I necessarily feel anxiety from nicotine... but I do think that over time as I smoke more and more traditional cigs (and i would guess, ecigs) I would feel that effect... from the nicotine alone. That seems to be my past experience.

    Also last night when I went out to a bar and drank.. I wasn't really smoking. But then I had like half of a cigarette, and for 10 minutes I felt more uptight... so I think nicotine does cause anxiety in some of us... I wouldn't have known this until a month ago when I basically broke my nicotine addiction...

    I wonder if anyone can comment who has tried this, or knows what I'm after here... and could offer their insights!
     
  6. DVap

    DVap Nicotiana Alchemia Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    You might want to just check out "Smokless tobacco" under the "Other alteratives to smoking" forum.

    Snus is probably a lot more pleasant and a lot less harmful than these experiments. :)
     
  7. DC2

    DC2 Tootie Puffer Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Failed post.......
     
  8. DC2

    DC2 Tootie Puffer Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Good to see you're still around.
    Better to see you posting in the GNUBIES area.
    :)

    Listen to what this dude has to say!
    :thumb:
     
  9. Timberwear

    Timberwear Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    Also I think stress/anxiety/depression/nicotine/maoi's.... its all very complicated.

    It depends on your life. Your lifestyle. Your job...


    Nicotine alone probably has a quick acting anti-depressant effect... which I have realized... especially when you smoke a bunch in a row... with some cups of coffee...

    But another idea I have... is that nicotine itself could actually cause anxiety..over time... in some of us... and that could lead to an anxiety condition or even contribute to depression... from that anxiety...

    So to be able to incorporate a non-nicotine tobacco extract...by vaping, smoking, orally...etc... its possible to get a even greater mood-modulating/upping effect...

    But this again could take weeks or months to get going in the system... like a traditional MAOI drug. Depending on the person. We will see...

    I have just read of people having a lot of success with traditional MAO type pharmaceutical drugs... if my experiments work...it might work better alone than cigarettes -with- nicotine. Or it might actually turn out its really not even enough to actually deal with normal life stresses... when you have lots on your plate... which I don't really have right now.

    I will be getting my first e-cig shortly in the mail... I will probably experiment a tiny bit with it... but I want to test this MAOI/WTA(minus nicotine) stuff out first... before venturing back into the nicotine... as it was a B***C to get off of... one of the hardest things I've tried doing. But its also possible its just a b***h to get off cigs because you know they help you... but I still think its the nicotine that you became addicted to... not necessarily the MAOI and other alkaloids... kinda like how its very hard to get off of caffeine.
     
  10. Timberwear

    Timberwear Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    Hey DVap - read all your stuff. Awesome.

    I don't like snus... I gave it a go a bunch of times... it was alright to me. I started experimenting with it 8 years ago I think.

    I kinda like being off nicotine right now...It seems nicotine kinda always made me feel anxious.. like I had to be doing something. Always focused. Couldn't really ever relax... I would always have to be smoking a cigarette...or doing something... and then when the stimulation wore off I had to have another cigarette. I seem to notice this with smokers now. Without the cigs I'm calmer... I plan my energy better... My relationships are better in a way... as I can be more in the present. its just the depression has started drastically creeping in. It sucks...plain and simple. thats why I want to see what the other alkaloids have to offer. I'm not trying to be an anti towards nicotine at all... really.

    If it turns out nicotine is also beneficial to me...than I'll use it. In ecig form... and add on other herbs/medications to help counterbalance any effects I don't like from it.

    Anyways, if the water extraction/maoi stuff works out... its quite simple. go buy a bunch of the lowest tsna organic tobacco you can find, or grow your own... then just take out the nicotine... ? seems very simple to me... the question is what else leaches out in the simple water extraction that you possibly don't want leached out...

    Either way Dvap, I'm in a better position than alot of people on this board to do this experiment, as it seems my addiction to nicotine is very low at this point, thank God. But truly thats probably speculation... as who knows -what- I was addicted to. Me thinks the nicotine. But addiction to me is a harsh word. I think you just get used to a certain lifestyle that nicotine offers you... and you get into that swing of it. But when I basically quit cigs I remember it was so bad the only thing I could do was sleep, and I slept ALOT. It was killer... I don't know how I made it really.

    I think I've had 4 or 5 of these baked tobacco rollies as I've been writing all this :)

    oh, as an edit: the idea occurred to me to do a water soak of snus portions...to remove nicotine... leaving behind other stuff... so i will probably try that.
     
  11. DenniZ

    DenniZ Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

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    Timberware,
    I'm sending you a P.M. to try and make sure you have a look at this.

    I'm not an expert, I'm just a nursing student, but I lave read a lot of the literature on anti-depressants. You are correct in stating that there are a LOT of side effects from using them, and they vary from person to person. Also the diet restrictions CAN be very harsh, and the hypertensive crisis that results from taking them in conjunction with Tyramine or Sudafed can cause you to stroke and die.

    I see your side of the problem.

    That being said, you stated that you were done with meds several years ago. It couldn't hurt to speak to your doctor and bring up your past experiences, your present concerns, and the future outcomes you would like to achieve. There are new drugs on the market, maybe one of them will be right for you.

    Ingesting tobacco is dangerous! Especially since you are constantly varying the dosages. The reason that an O.D. from smoking tobacco is fairly self-limiting is because it hits your blood stream fast, and causes you to feel dizzy/sick. End result: you stop smoking before you reach toxic levels.
    Eating the same amount, you will not feel the effects until later since chemical breakdown needs to occur before the nicotine is fully released. The nicotine will continue to be released until what is in your GI tract is exhausted, making accidental O.D. more likely. Add to this the experimenting with different oven bake times, causing differing amounts of nicotine to vaporize, and you have a very difficult time having any idea of how much nicotine you are taking in. What might be the perfect dose of one batch may seriously injure you from another batch. I hate to be all doom and gloom but something as simple as not preheating the oven may land you in a casket.

    I don't question your intelligence, you are clearly smart, I'm just urging you to please take a step back and examine all your options.

    If you choose not to go to your doctor, and no smokeless alternatives work for you, I'd say stick with the smokes for now. Believe me when I say that it hurts me to say that, but if the choices are slowly do damage vs. potentially die tomorrow...

    Please take your immediate safety into account, all other things can wait.
    -Dennis
     
  12. Timberwear

    Timberwear Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    Hi Thanks Dennis.

    Well I'm not going to be baking the tobacco anymore. Its just I have this baked tobacco laying around while the water-extract is doing its thing...which is currently is... giving it 24 hours.

    Hopefully eating the water-extracted denicotinized tobacco will not result in an overdose. I think it probably effectively gets rid of most of the nicotine, although I haven't researched it. Believe me though...believe me... I don't want to risk an OD again... so that is why I'm probably just going to smoke this stuff for awhile to note any effects... probably for a month or so... you know, to see what happens... before I even begin trying to eat it raw...

    Yes I know of all the current antidepressant options. I do... and when I said I gave up on meds several years ago I meant 8 years ago. I did try a run with Lexapro a year ago and it was nothing to me.

    I also have been a health nut most of my life, have tried many diets, herbs, supplements. Even exercised all the time... I had always looked upon cigarettes like it was some bad evil thing... that is, until i finally opened my mind to try it... and then overtime I realized the benefits it can offer.

    Anyways, if it comes to taking meds again, I will try... its a very complicated issue of course. I'm just in a position to really push this alkaloid/maoi thing right now... see where it leads. Thats all... so thats what I'm going to be doing.

    But yeah, I'm with you. I think its better for some people to just smoke if thats what does it for them... I would rather have a great life and a shorter one. But I don't think it will come to that... But I do believe depression has more bad effects to a person than smoking cigs... and if nothing works and you don't smoke the magical tobacco that works for you...then you could end up in a casket by suicide like you said... or worse...live your entire life in a virtual casket until you finally enter the real casket underground. Which would be such a waste of a life.

    :)
     
  13. DenniZ

    DenniZ Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

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    It's very obvious to me that you want to feel better, and you are willing put in great effort to do so. I wish all my patients were like you. I have seen quite a bit, but the hardest are always the ones that have already given up. You obviously haven't and that takes a lot of courage.

    It seems you have dealt with this for a long time, and you have examined this from many angles. I hope that you find what you are seeking, and that your life is filled with joy and contentment. Welcome to ECF by the way! Please consider me and the rest of us here as zero maintenance friends when those pesky neurotransmitters start acting fools :p

    Stay safe,
    -Dee
     
  14. Timberwear

    Timberwear Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    Thanks Dee. I like that, zero-maintenance friends...

    anyways i deleted some personal information on here... but yeah, Thanks.
     
  15. DenniZ

    DenniZ Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

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    No prob man,
    That's how we roll here at ECF!
    Also, my GF just woke up and laughed at me that I'm staying up all night, clickity-clacking on my keyboard. I know what you mean about some being keepers. She also likes to periodically shake her hand in the Beyonce "put a ring on it motion", makes me crack up every time.
     
  16. Timberwear

    Timberwear Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    Thats cool... haha... yeah i'm crashing out or at least trying to now. Later!
     
  17. Zapp and Roger

    Zapp and Roger Super Member ECF Veteran

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    One of the reasons you feel much better after a few cigs and coffee is not from the nicotine and caffeeine, rather it is the Dopamine and seratonin that the two flood your brain with. The dopamine is why typically ADD people seek out cigs or caffeine as a "replacement" if they aren't on any medication therapy. As far as the "other" supplement, I would leave it out for now as the more drugs you introduce into your system the harder it becomes to differentiate between which ones are helping, and which ones are counteracting the others or desired effects. I haven't seen you mention St. John's wart yet, that has a great effect for some people. It's good you recognize the difference between situational and biochemical depression that is really important to helping your condition. I've been where you are before and lord it is hard. Try to eliminate everything you can and work on one thing at time to see what works for you if you choose to self medicate. Do be careful, I would like to hear you are working with your doctor, not necessarily a psych to help move the issues to under control. Please keep us updated to what is working for you. :)
     
  18. Zapp and Roger

    Zapp and Roger Super Member ECF Veteran

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    If they cannot handle you at your worst, they don't deserve you at your best.
     
  19. kj4lxw

    kj4lxw Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    I do not feel qualified in any way to comment here but I would say that you seem to be getting some good advice from those that have responded and would hope you at the best heed it, at the least seriously consider what they say.
    Good luck to you.
     
  20. Timberwear

    Timberwear Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    Thanks Zapp and kj...

    Yeah I really have thought too... if they cant handle me at my worst... thing is i would have stuck around for them... u know? i value things..

    I have tried SJW in the past, but didn't really do much for me.


    Anyways its 4 AM. I smoked about 5 or 6 of the cooked tobacco rollies. I didn't feel much nicotine from that really. And when I was done smoking those, I didn't feel any urge to smoke more. And I didn't get the withdrawal feeling of smoking the regular cig where you have to come back for more. So its good. I don't really have desire to smoke more. Tomorrow will be enlightening to see what happens.

    I also rested a bit on this, and was reading more stuff, and realized I could probably just buy really good snus... then also soak that in water for 24 hours... that would give me low TSNA hopefully de-nicotinized tobacco...in pouches I can use... maybe without the nicotine I would find I could use one or two good ones a day... that would be VERY easy... and then I could finally say goodbye to smoking and also cut my risks a lot.

    Also it would be nice to get better taste, and better smelling abilities.
     
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