Still confused about regulated mod amp calculation, 200w mod dual batteries?

[Vesh]

Hi there! I indeed have read mooch's and MANY others' posts on the subject of regulated mods using a different ohms law calculation to work out the amps being used.

Unfortunately, many places stopped shipping batteries to Australia, and basically our choice is efest/sony/samsung/LG.

I have come to the understanding that regulated mods draw a certain amp for the amount of watts used, regardless of the coil resistance (please correct me if i have totally misunderstood this).

Unfortunately, through all of this, it has still not sunk in what that formula *is*.

And now with many dual mods claiming 200w, and about to purchase a g-priv after months of saving, I just want to get the safest batteries I have access to, that IF i decided to do a silly 200w vape just for a try now and then, i would be safe.
I still MTL when i'm out anyway, i just experiment with clouds at home, so it's not something i would do every day. But i do enjoy the cleito 120 vape occasionally, and since i already have that, i will get the g priv mod only and save cash.

My most high powered mod at present is 100w - and i have read reports of people having great cleito vapes at even 150 or 160. Of course, eventually, a few months down the road, i might invest in a tank with coils officially rated to 200. Eventually. I am not a builder in any way shape or form. I use pre made coils and always will (trust me on that, my hands couldn't do it).

What i am basically wanting to know is, how many amps would 200w draw, when using 2 batteries in series like the g-priv does.

And if you don't mind, what would 100w draw using one battery?

There are 75 and 100 watts single 18650 mods.. There's also the presa TC100 which is interesting, and could use the ijoy 26650 which i know is safe thanks to mooch. But they have been discontinued (the presa).

From what i gather, 100 w on 1 battery or 200w on 2 batteries would be too much for popular 20 amp continuous batteries like the samsung 25r.

I have been led to a respected seller for VTC5a Sony., and from all of mooch's reports (again, thanks), it seems this is for sure the best 18650 sold in australia.

For the TLDR:

1) could 200w on dual 18650 be safe with the VTC5a rated at 25amp continuous, or would 200w draw more than that? I do realise they can be pulsed to 30.

2) Would the every day samsung 25R be ok in a 75 watt single battery mod?

3) Would a single VTC5a be the ticket for a 100w single battery mod?

I know there are batteries with lower mah that discharge higher, but the vape shops i trust, nor other electronics sellers i trust, sell them in OZ.

Thanks so much for you attention.

Cheers

PS chargers are a nitecore D2, and an efest LUC4

 

[r77r7r]

Not sure but maybe the evening crowd can help..........

 

[Vesh]

Well i just ordered some vtc5a, i mean there simply isn't a better battery on the market here according to tests as far as discharge current, unless i were to order another brand from overseas and pay some crazy 30 euros dhl ship fee.. I appreciate your reply, and hope someone can at least help. I am not getting the calculations provided in other threads, i probably just need to take a deep breath and read them again.

 

[DarrellG]

Hiya, Vesh.

It took a while for this stuff to begin to sink in for me, too. Sometimes just reading a slightly different wording can clear some of the fog, so even though it sounds like you've probably heard most of this I'll run down the basics as I understand them. If anyone sees something out of place here please chime in.

In a regulated mod (series or parallel) you can calculate your amp draw as follows:
Wattage divided by the number of batteries divided by the voltage cut-off of your device (how low your device allows your battery to be discharged). Many devices have a cut-off of 3.2V per battery, but this varies slightly so check the specs on your device. DJLSB Vapes on YouTube is a good source for getting technical details on tons of devices.

Anyway, you then calculate about 5% for inefficiency of the regulator (the thing your battery is connected to, as opposed to being directly connected to the atomizer like in a mechanical mod). 5% might be conservative, but I've heard the figure quoted several times so that's what I go with.

For a 2 battery regulated mod firing at 200 Watts it would go like this:
200W/2 batteries = 100 watts per battery.
100 Watts/3.2V = 31.25 Amps.
31.25/.95 (the 5% regulator inefficiency) = approximately 33 amps.

The VTC5A is a solid battery with a 25 Amp continuous rating. This means if the battery were to run constantly at 25 amps it would not exceed a temperature that would damage the integrity of the battery and lead to increased safety concerns. This battery is a good choice for pretty much any 18650 mod as I understand it.

It can be pulsed higher than this with "relative" safety. 33 Amps should not be much of an issue unless your seriously chain vaping the heck out of the thing, but even still, if you go this route just be aware of what you're doing, check if your batteries are warming up and if they are back off and let things cool down for 5 minutes or so. Also, if the mod were to malfunction (auto-fire) while set to a wattage that was drawing amps above the battery's continuous discharge rating this could potentially lead to venting, and even a small chance of thermal runaway (the probability may not be high, but it's not zero, and TR is ugly as I'm sure you know).

At 100 Watts in a single 18650 mod with a 3.2V cut-off: About 33 amps, same scenario as as 2 batteries at 200 Watts.

The 25R: This one is rated at 20 Amps continuous. So at 75Watts you'd be pulling about 25 Amps. So again you'd be pulsing over the CDR (Continuous Discharge Rating), but should be fairly safe.

Using a single 25R at 100W or two of them at 200W: You'd "probably" be alright, but I can't honestly recommend it. I'd go with the VTC5a for increased safety and peace of mind.

Like you already mentioned, if you want a bit more peace of mind you could jump up to a battery with a 30 Amp CDR, such as an LG HB4, but if you can't get your hands on them in OZ I'd say the VTC5A is the next best thing.

I understand the curiosity regarding vaping at 200W, I had to experience it for myself as well. Turned out to not be my thing. It's rare for me to even go as high as 125W with 6-7 wrap kanthal dual fused claptons. They ramp right up and it's a nice warm vape with plenty of vapor. If I vaped at 200W I'd have to order my liquid in 55 gallon drums...

Hope this didn't confuse you more... hehe

 

[Vesh]

Wow that really really helped, that's exactly the info I needed, thanks so much
When Mooch rates the VTC5A as safe to vape at 30 amps, I take it to mean for pulsing. I think 33 is too high for that battery, and quite honestly, i'm floored. I had it in my head it would be around 25 per 100 watt, so thanks for clearing that up! I'll have to check the g priv specs to get the exact lower voltage figure for when it cuts off, but that's definitely the mod.. i finally ordered it today from a local aussie store.
I have seen some batteries with Mooch's safe vape rating of 35 & 40+ ratings. Unfortunately, there is no reasonably priced way to get them here (to get say 4 batteries and shipping would be the price of the g priv mod!).

Some good news, I know Mooch has rated the Aspire 1800 mah highly, and aspire cig.com are doing free shpping or just $11 DHL express, so I think for now I will stick with the VTC5a's, and order some 1800 direct from Aspire. That's the only brand I can get at a good price, and get it from the source and know they are legit.

I vape about 8 to 10 puffs an hour.. is that considered chain vaping? Often i will take a big puff and then put it down for 10 minutes, or sometimes i will vape a cigarettes worth MTL (around 11 puffs) and put it away for an hour or two. I think I will let the vtc5a's go to around 150 watts and no more, and quite honestly, i am surprised Smok is even offering twin battery mods now for 220 watts! I quite like the Wismec RX2/3's idea of 3 batteries for 200 watts, and it was a really tough call but the touch screen won me over, as well as the perfect 24.5 flush. 30 deep is just sooooo.. BIG! If in the future I get a 30" 3 battery mod, i have heard great things about the battlestar, and they are so well priced. So maybe then, with 3 vtc5a's, 200 watts would feel safe.

I won't pretend i won't do it once or twice with the VTC5a and the g priv for the thrill to see what a 200 watt vape feels like, but i'll probably do it that once or twice, scare myself and never do it again. I have a perhaps irrational fear of the exploding in the face battery syndrome, every time I put an ecig into my mouth. Crazy, huh.
ok just checked the 18650 chart
https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/attachments/image-jpeg.620867/
the aspires 25 constant but safe to vape at 35.. so.. i think they'd be the ones for me. They are $7 each, Aspire go on vacation tomorrow, so I might as well order like 6 or something when they get back and i have a bit of cash again, and just have a few around.
I'd even buy a 1500 mah 40+ A battery just to feel safe, whatever the brand as long as it's a good battery (low mah doesn't matter for me personally, as that's what having 2 sets per mod and one always charged is for, )but that would just eat into the cashflow too much for now after the g priv splurge.
Note to self, really got to donate to this forum and Mooch next payday. The work he puts into the testing and those charts is phenomenal. I also got to say I can't believe how fast I got a reply and such a detailed one. Really good people here it seems!

Regards, and thanks again Darrell.

 

[KenD]

Note that there are no 18650s with a cdr higher than 30 amps. Get authentic high drain Samsung, Sony, or LG batteries. The rest are rewraps with exaggerated amp ratings (although the Aspire does indeed appear to be a good battery).

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

 

[DarrellG]

Glad I didn't make matters worse. I have a tendency to confuse even myself... hehe

Yeah 150W would put you around 25 Amps per battery in a 2 battery mod, so that would be a good upper limit to stick to for optimal safety IMO. You're in a good place even if the mod were to auto-fire. The VTC5A's can very safely handle this usage.

8-10 puffs an hour definitely isn't chain vaping, unless you're taking all those puffs in the first minute of that hour. If you were taking a bunch of hits back to back with very little rest period between them, that would be chain vaping. That's when the batteries can begin to heat up if you're operating at an amp level above the cdr (which you are in the examples from the previous post.) If I'm vaping around the cdr of my batteries and I've been hitting it hard I'll occasionally pop the panel off and feel the batteries to see if they're warming up. Generally they have to get really warm before you're heading into dangerous territory, but even if they're slightly warm I lay off it for a while. I figure if you can get a satisfying vape at amp levels below your battery's cdr, that's the best way to go. Higher wattage resulting in higher amp draw isn't the only way to go when you're trying to dial in your ideal vape. Experimenting with different coils, airflow, and even adjusting nicotine levels can yield great results too.
I've been experimenting a bit with thinner gauge wire at higher ohm builds that require much less wattage than I normally use, and I'm still getting a significant amount of vapor and very quick ramp up.

And just to clarify, in case it isn't clear, all vaping is pulsing. Continuous drain would be along the lines of having these batteries in a flashlight. You turn the flashlight on and it stays on for some extended period of time. We pulse for very short durations. But the cdr lets us know what the manufacturer has determined to be a safe amp draw from the particular battery, an amp draw where the internal temperature of the battery does not begin to negatively impact the battery. It's important to note what KenD said here. There are no 18650's with a cdr over 30A, no matter what the printing on the wrap says.

Also, there's nothing irrational about not wanting a vape to explode in your face. I'm cautious as well But a solid understanding of the few simple points of battery safety and knowing the characteristics of the batteries you're using goes a long way to ensuring that nothing goes wrong. The overwhelming majority of vapers are operating safely, because it's really not a difficult thing to do. Unfortunately those aren't the ones we see on the news...

If you haven't seen these, this is a link to YouTube playlist of some of Mooch's appearances on various vape shows. Watching these really helped me to get all of this information in my head. There's a lot of the same material covered in all of those videos, but each video has some specific information that is unique to the other videos. Highly recommend checking them out.



And I hear ya, I need to pass along a few bucks towards Mooch's testing expenses, too. The vape community would be a very different place without him.

 

[Gramdogg]

All seems accurate here, only corcern is if your going to pull CDR or higher your regulated device is going to get weak battery alert very quickly and you'll be charging batteries that are half full or more. I'd recommend a 3-4 battery mod if you want to use anywhere near 200w.

 

[Vesh]

Thanks for all the help everyone.

@KenD.. a CDR of 30 amps would be amazing.. I don't know of any such batteries locally
@Darrell, if I ever chain vape, it's only with my naut or naut x at 15 watts.. the triton mini coils are my fave for the standard naut now, at 1.2 ohms.. So i'd be no where near the CDR anyway with the chain vaping I do. When I sub ohm, I get dizzy fast even with 6mg. But when I MTL, I need 24mg to get a throat hit. I can't seem to get any throat hit with sub ohm. This is why I still like to MTL at some point during the day, i LOVE me my throat hit. I have now bought some 3mg juice to try sub with, and will experiment with the g priv and a couple different tanks to see how I go.
@Gramdogg, that makes sense.. This is why I was torn between the battlestar, RX2/3 or the Smok. It just made sense that a 3 battery mod would strain the batts less at high wattage. Oh well, decision made now.. and i AM looking forward to the g priv I have to admit!

thanks again everyone

PS the local vape shop tried to turn me off vtc5a and tried to steer me toward vtc6. I think they themselves need to ask the questions I am asking more often, because they also obviously don't understand the maths. He literally said 2 vtc6 could safely do 200w. I said no, I didn't believe it.

 

[KenD]

Note that the vtc5 and vtc5a are different batteries. The vtc5 is a 20 amp battery (and I'd take the vtc6 instead of it due to the latter's higher capacity) whereas the vtc5a is a 25 amp battery. To my knowledge the only 30 amp cdr batteries are the LG hb2, hb4, and hb6.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

 

[Vesh]

Right, yes, this is exactly why I chose the vtc5a. Oh sorry, i realised my typo above. The store owner tried to talk me out of the 5A. When i explained to him I wanted it for the amperage safety, he said, but man, in a 2 battery mod at 200 watts, even a 25r would be safe. I stuck to my guns and went with the 5A. I guess he was under the impression that the 5A would only make a difference in a mech mod and it didn't matter for a regulated mod.
I kind of like the cuboid in this regard, with the 25A limit. I think it's clever... and safe! That was another contender.. but they are so weird looking and no nice colours. That was my no moment for them. I need to enjoy the looks of the mod also, just the way I am I guess.

 

[Gramdogg]

Right, yes, this is exactly why I chose the vtc5a. Oh sorry, i realised my typo above. The store owner tried to talk me out of the 5A. When i explained to him I wanted it for the amperage safety, he said, but man, in a 2 battery mod at 200 watts, even a 25r would be safe. I stuck to my guns and went with the 5A. I guess he was under the impression that the 5A would only make a difference in a mech mod and it didn't matter for a regulated mod.
I kind of like the cuboid in this regard, with the 25A limit. I think it's clever... and safe! That was another contender.. but they are so weird looking and no nice colours. That was my no moment for them. I need to enjoy the looks of the mod also, just the way I am I guess.

Love that people that work at vape shops are so knowledgeable... pause for reaction.... not! 25R's running 100w each is safe, wow? They can hardly run 75w long before cutting out with weak battery alerts. Mooch has an MVA rating Max Vaping Amps that is the highest you should go that still allows some safety from malfunctions. VTC5A is 30A MVA if I remember correct and 25R's are 25A MVA. Don't forget as batteries age the mAh and CDR/MVA drops as well. It's estimated a battery charged 300 times has dropped about 40% mAh and 30% CDR. It's hard to determine an exact amount but the largest and fastest drop is in the 1st 50 charges, after that it drops at a slow steady pace.

 

[Vesh]

He was a really nice guy so I hope he actually just reads this somehow and learns as I am, as I would never name & shame (unless someone stole from me). Thanks, yes, I was going off of Mooch's charts with the 30A MVA. So the aspire is 35, when they get back from Chinese NY holidays, I will get a few of them. For now, the VTC5A is my best and safest bet for locally sourced. Thanks everyone, this really all helped so much.

 

[Epsilonsama]

I made an excel spreadsheet that calculates the current used on a mod. It shows multiple power values and let's you know the current. Just put the number of batteries you are using. Also as a bonus a simple mech mod power and current calc.

vapecurrent.xlsx

 

[Vesh]

wow that looks really useful.. Im on a mac though and don't have microsoft office of any kind. Do you know of any freeware that can work with xlsx files?

 

[Epsilonsama]

wow that looks really useful.. Im on a mac though and don't have microsoft office of any kind. Do you know of any freeware that can work with xlsx files?

Libre Office.

That's what I use to make it.

 

[Vesh]

Thank you kindly, will download and install that right now. Much appreciated for the tip. Cheers

-Theo

 

[Gramdogg]

If the G Priv has a by-pass mode they usually display the batteries voltage. With your nautilus at low watts the mod should cut off with a "dead" battery, then you can go to by pass to see what the volts are at when it cuts off to find out your cut off level. I can't find any info on it's cut off so that or a voltage meter would be the only way to find out. Could try writing Smok as well. Alien for example cuts off much lower then 3.2v per battery and my Evic VTC Mini cuts off at 3.1v... 3.2v isn't always correct so no chart can help anyways.

 

[LilWhiteClouder]

I made an excel spreadsheet that calculates the current used on a mod. It shows multiple power values and let's you know the current. Just put the number of batteries you are using. Also as a bonus a simple mech mod power and current calc.

vapecurrent.xlsx