Subtank RBA builds? show em!

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Vapez

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Alright, I have some questions for all of you.

What's the best wicking method for higher VG juices?

I've rebuilt some coils at 1.4ohms without problems with 30gauge kanthal. Super smooth vape, never a snap crackle pop.

Then I had ordered 10x rba bases (future proofing!) And wicked all of them. They were all already wired. They were authentics.

The issue is... About 8/10 of them have had a really annoying sound. When first hitting it, it comes a huuuge pop/mini explosion, followed with crackles during the hit. And this is for every hit, even after longer vaping sessions. What makes this happen?

Vapez
 

TheMike21

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That happens to me with some liquids, the first pop is a bubble that occurs between the RBA and the shaft. The following crackle could be some flooding. I've been wicking it with the pancake method and once I put the bell on I just fold the cotton over the holes. No crackleing. With 50/50 I cut my wick at the outer rim of the airflow. for 30/70 I do it almost to the sides of the RBA base.
 

Nikea Tiber

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TrikStari

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Find someone with a kayfun and ask them if you can make a build for them.
When you are done the kanger rba will seem gigantic.
Luckily I've passed the Kanger off to my sister. Am now using the Zephyrus V2. Got a single fused clapton in there for the moment. 1.5mm diameter. Seems to be working well. I'm happy to see I was right about more complex coils that require higher power. Now I can finally hit my vape like a cig, and it actually feels like it has the density of a cig.

I don't see how some people fit a 2mm fused clapton in this thing. I guess I have much to learn lol
 

Rm217

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Build 1.jpg
My first build. 24g 3/32" kanthal firing at .5 ohms. I'm hoping to try stainless steel wire after I get my hands on the new Kbox120.
 

MacTechVpr

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Alright, I have some questions for all of you.

What's the best wicking method for higher VG juices?

I've rebuilt some coils at 1.4ohms without problems with 30gauge kanthal. Super smooth vape, never a snap crackle pop.

Then I had ordered 10x rba bases (future proofing!) And wicked all of them. They were all already wired. They were authentics.

The issue is... About 8/10 of them have had a really annoying sound. When first hitting it, it comes a huuuge pop/mini explosion, followed with crackles during the hit. And this is for every hit, even after longer vaping sessions. What makes this happen?

Vapez

Not unusual when you're breaking in a wick and you don't have full saturation. Somewhat more so if you are the extremes of either too tight (inhibiting saturation) or too loose (rapidly vaporizing merely surface saturation).

Curious as to the stock build you got with those rebuildables. Take us a pic will ya? :D

Take this opp to say to more recent subscribers since my last stop here. Over the past year much talk rejecting the contact coil which is real unfortunate to you new vapers landing here. Vapor output is all about maximum effective contact area. The analogy, usable rubber on the road (drain channels don't count). Particularly in closed tank environments the build deck is smaller. The number of turns you can use is limited by the post spread (or you start to distort the wind pulling in leads). Differences in wire strain can produce small variations in heat distribution which can make heat delivery uneven. It can be small or utterly sour your vape.


Compact symmetrical strain balanced coils and especially Kanthal contact coils (when properly oxidized) result in more effective contact area bar none. Many fail with the contact coil as it's often not properly shown how it needs to be prepared and actually works. Done right, a contact coil allows more wire mass in less space essentially making it a more concentrated power source. But most of you who won't choose a Subtank for its cloud comp potential. Like me, you may be cloud lovers but not at the expense of best flavor. For that you need flavor density, efficiency. You'll settle into a relatively lower power output, say 18-22W, for regular use. That's not to say you'd be limited to that, far from, and...you'll want to be able to duplicate the result each and every time. A technique I introduced based on super_X_drifter's microcoil allows you to produce this result in 30 seconds or less consistently. The discussion, on these threads…

Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!
Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

Post for answers there from subscribers or PM me. Glad to help.

Good luck.

:)

I don't expect all will agree with me or even understand. I've spent a lifetime of learning and for all the answers, even more questions.

 
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Vapez

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Aug 22, 2015
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Not unusual when you're breaking in a wick and you don't have full saturation. Somewhat more so if you are the extremes of either too tight (inhibiting saturation) or too loose (rapidly vaporizing merely surface saturation).

Curious as to the stock build you got with those rebuildables. Take us a pic will ya? :D

Take this opp to say to more recent subscribers since my last stop here. Over the past year much talk rejecting the contact coil which is real unfortunate to you new vapers landing here. Vapor output is all about maximum effective contact area. The analogy, usable rubber on the road (drain channels don't count). Particularly in closed tank environments the build deck is smaller. The number of turns you can use is limited by the post spread (or you start to distort the wind pulling in leads). Differences in wire strain can produce small variations in heat distribution which can make heat delivery uneven. It can be small or utterly sour your vape.


Compact symmetrical strain balanced coils and especially Kanthal contact coils (when properly oxidized) result in more effective contact area bar none. Many fail with the contact coil as it's often not properly shown how it needs to be prepared and actually works. Done right, a contact coil allows more wire mass in less space essentially making it a more concentrated power source. But most of you who won't choose a Subtank for its cloud comp potential. Like me, you may be cloud lovers but not at the expense of best flavor. For that you need flavor density, efficiency. You'll settle into a relatively lower power output, say 18-22W, for regular use. And you'll want to be able to duplicate the result each and every time. A technique I introduced based on super_X_drifter's microcoil allows you to produce this result in 30 seconds or less consistently. The discussion, on these threads…

Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!
Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

Post for answers there from subscribers or PM me. Glad to help.

Good luck.

:)

I don't expect all will agree with me or even understand. I've spent a lifetime of learning and for all the answers, even more questions.

Hi. Don't have time to really go in depth, but my problem is solved. I've been experienting. The poppin and cracklins were because I used too thin cotton. It didn't catch the whole "hole" thus popping. That is no longer a problem. I use less cotton, and make sure it's fluffy. Vape at 0.5ohms/<4.2v (and lower) with no problems and only enjoyable vape. Cotton lasts longer as well :)
 
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MacTechVpr

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Hi. Don't have time to really go in depth, but my problem is solved. I've been experienting. The poppin and cracklins were because I used too thin cotton. It didn't catch the whole "hole" thus popping. That is no longer a problem. I use less cotton, and make sure it's fluffy. Vape at 0.5ohms/<4.2v (and lower) with no problems and only enjoyable vape. Cotton lasts longer as well :)


Yep, Subtank likes "chunky" wicks. Coined that on the PT thread. SubT's like thicker wicks because they can handle more juice with better airflow. All about matching power applied, air supply and juice flow.

Good luck V, and look us up. Pic's always helpful!

:)

p.s. True that. Contact gaps can pop plenty. Overheating exposed wire, asymmetry.
 
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TheoS

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Feb 4, 2016
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Good day gents (and ladies)..been reading through this thread and just wanted to chime in on what I've found with my Subtank Mini.

In general I see the vaping community as a whole being so concerned with sub-ohm builds and raving about builds that fire at a gazillion watts....and I can't help but wonder why. It would seem to me that many (perhaps most) have very little understanding of the very basic science behind vaping. I specifically say "very basic", because all that matters is heat and quantity of juice..that's it. If you want huge clouds, the recipe is easy, apply more heat, and heat up more juice..easy.

This is where I can see dual coil builds etc being an advantage, as you then have 2 or more heating elements. But the thing that confuses me the most is this raving about pushing enough watts to power a small home, and that it often seems that people conclude that higher wattage equals a "better" build. The simple fact of the matter is that resistance is good, it's that resistance that provides the heat to the coil. Resistance is simply electrical friction...and what happens when you quickly rub your hand across the surface of a carpet?
The less resistance there is in a system, the more efficient that system is at transporting the electrical current...but that's exactly what we DON'T want. We don't want efficiency (as far as the coil is concerned anyways), we want that electrical energy (as much of it as possible) to be converted to heat. So when people start raving about sub-ohm builds, this makes no sense to me. All it means is that you would have to push more power to get the same amount of energy conversion.
Think of the wire as being a hose pipe...the wider the diameter (lower gauge) the higher the flow rate...which means that thicker wire is more efficient.
Over the 2 months or so that I've had my Subtank Mini, I've tried a number of builds on the RBA deck. granted, I've only been able to use 26g wire (because that's all I have), I've built a dual coil setup, twisted single coil, and single coils of varying diameters...and my favourite so far is 2mm diameter of 5-6 wraps which brings it in at around 0.6-0.7 ohms. The twisted and dual coil setups came in at an indicated 0.3 ohms (but it might be less, seeing as the kbox mini only reads down to 0.3 ohms).

Of course, the dual coil and twisted setups produced more vapour simply due to there being more juice in contact with the coils. But here's the catch with using large diameter wire (read extreme sub-ohm builds), because there is more metal, it takes longer to heat up, and requires more power. Think of boiling water...it takes more energy to boil 2L of water as opposed to 1L of water, yet at boiling point, both quantities will be at the same temperature. Larger diameter wire also retains heat for longer, which will result in more juice being wasted right after you've stopped pressing the fire button.
The result was that I could vape at up to 34W on those builds, which took a HUGE toll on the battery.
With my single coil builds, I can get plenty of vapour at a mere 16-18W (I usually vape at 12-14W), and instead of my battery only lasting a max of 2-3 hours, it can last me all day.

So, just my 2c...don't be so quick to hop on this low-ohm, extreme-watts train...like Beats headphones, it mainly just about bragging rights
 
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MacTechVpr

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Good day gents (and ladies)..been reading through this thread and just wanted to chime in on what I've found with my Subtank Mini.

In general I see the vaping community as a whole being so concerned with sub-ohm builds and raving about builds that fire at a gazillion watts....and I can't help but wonder why. It would seem to me that many (perhaps most) have very little understanding of the very basic science behind vaping. I specifically say "very basic", because all that matters is heat and quantity of juice..that's it. If you want huge clouds, the recipe is easy, apply more heat, and heat up more juice..easy.

This is where I can see dual coil builds etc being an advantage, as you then have 2 or more heating elements. But the thing that confuses me the most is this raving about pushing enough watts to power a small home, and that it often seems that people conclude that higher wattage equals a "better" build. The simple fact of the matter is that resistance is good, it's that resistance that provides the heat to the coil. Resistance is simply electrical friction...and what happens when you quickly rub your hand across the surface of a carpet?
The less resistance there is in a system, the more efficient that system is at transporting the electrical current...but that's exactly what we DON'T want. We don't want efficiency (as far as the coil is concerned anyways), we want that electrical energy (as much of it as possible) to be converted to heat. So when people start raving about sub-ohm builds, this makes no sense to me. All it means is that you would have to push more power to get the same amount of energy conversion.
Think of the wire as being a hose pipe...the wider the diameter (lower gauge) the higher the flow rate...which means that thicker wire is more efficient.
Over the 2 months or so that I've had my Subtank Mini, I've tried a number of builds on the RBA deck. granted, I've only been able to use 26g wire (because that's all I have), I've built a dual coil setup, twisted single coil, and single coils of varying diameters...and my favourite so far is 2mm diameter of 5-6 wraps which brings it in at around 0.6-0.7 ohms. The twisted and dual coil setups came in at an indicated 0.3 ohms (but it might be less, seeing as the kbox mini only reads down to 0.3 ohms).

Of course, the dual coil and twisted setups produced more vapour simply due to there being more juice in contact with the coils. But here's the catch with using large diameter wire (read extreme sub-ohm builds), because there is more metal, it takes longer to heat up, and requires more power. Think of boiling water...it takes more energy to boil 2L of water as opposed to 1L of water, yet at boiling point, both quantities will be at the same temperature. Larger diameter wire also retains heat for longer, which will result in more juice being wasted right after you've stopped pressing the fire button.
The result was that I could vape at up to 34W on those builds, which took a HUGE toll on the battery.
With my single coil builds, I can get plenty of vapour at a mere 16-18W (I usually vape at 12-14W), and instead of my battery only lasting a max of 2-3 hours, it can last me all day.

So, just my 2c...don't be so quick to hop on this low-ohm, extreme-watts train...like Beats headphones, it mainly just about bragging rights

Good write up Theo on wire and watts.

There is a tradeoff between thick wire (higher heat capacity+more power req'd) vs. thinner wire with it's faster ramp up time and that is wick contact surface area. Which is what we want the most of given the space we have to work with. Finding the happy medium that gets us to our temperature target is the objective.

Contact coils help us get increased surface area (more turns) while limiting the excess heat capacity needed to reach the temp goal (less power, more batt life). Remember that as we increase wire cross section we're also proportionally increasing mass exposure to air. It's the wetted surface area of wire that provokes vaporization, dry contact diffusion. So low profile's the way to go for flavor density. A high expect wire diameter for more post vaporization diffusion, clouds. But this latter does not necessarily have to come by increasing heat capacity. It can be accomplished by more airflow at the atomizer, drip tip or by draw style.


Well then, how do we get enough juice flow to meet the efficient power we just created with our thinner high surface contact fast firing coil? We increase wind diameter and wick density right up to the limits of atomizer airflow (or deck size). You've found the limits of the device. That is, the balance of vapor density and production. It's easy to create diffusion on any device…just throw more power at it.

Good luck.

:)
 

TheoS

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Feb 4, 2016
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I have found that putting it too close to the air hole restricts air flow A LOT...too high up and I tend to get spitting. The happy place for mine with a 2.5mm coil is so that the middle of the coil sits slightly (no more than about 0.5mm) above the top of the posts.

As for contact vs spaced coils....I find that I get better flavour with spaced coils, and slightly more vapour with contact coils
 

MacTechVpr

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I have found that putting it too close to the air hole restricts air flow A LOT...too high up and I tend to get spitting. The happy place for mine with a 2.5mm coil is so that the middle of the coil sits slightly (no more than about 0.5mm) above the top of the posts.

The engineers seem to agree with you on placement T. Me too.

As for contact vs spaced coils....I find that I get better flavour with spaced coils, and slightly more vapour with contact coils

Why is reproducing our winds important?

As for the rest…prove all things. Vapor production's all dependent on effective contact area. Spacing, same wire gauge, diffuses the power applied. You have to up the power or up the wire gauge to get the same output…in the same geometric space. Produces a cooler vape (if you don't) which some might say on the other hand is better flavor. Mebe, they just enjoy that lower output level. But that's not the basis for one wind or another producing better flavor…the myth that's been spread all over the past year about spaced vs. non spaced. It just means that power level achieved was a good density target.

There isn't a vapor density target you can't hit with a contact coil. Why I promote them is so folks know the tools exist to produce a circuit that can be duplicated every time. Hard to do with spacing. Even more difficult to predict a temp target (unless you wind on a metric, like a screw). Complicated math, especially for new vapers. With a contact coil, you have a starting point or goal post for your observations that's measurable and repeatable, spacing=0. Precise. The results a link away at Coil wrapping | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators. Our tastes change over time after quitting and flavor objectivity isn't consistent from person to person. Good to have a standard rather than a moving target to rely on as a barometer of taste.

Good luck, enjoy the vape.

:)

 
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MacTechVpr

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Subtank's a great tank. Lot of credit to Kanger for turning the clearomizer into an open rebuildable system with the RDA. They appreciated their Protank customer base and listened. Single coil but a good wide spread on the deck and damned real user friendly termination. It's a great tank even for the beginner. Just bear that in mind as more and more maybe go to closed non-rebuildable approaches. That vaping was made by vapers and the companies' designs that made it possible.

Good luck all.

:)

 

Redmatt

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I've tried loads of different builds on my subox mini rba. But it dosn't matter how I build and wick them I still can't get big clouds. Built From 2 to 10 wraps, 1-3 mm, duel, double, twisted, duel double twisted. + can't seem to get it above 25 watts without big throat hit or burnt cotton taste.
Getting smaller clouds than with the occ's. Nice flavour on all builds but no clouds. Would a chimney build help? Can anybody help me?
 
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MacTechVpr

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I've tried loads of different builds on my subox mini rba. But it dosn't matter how I build and wick them I still can't get big clouds. Built From 2 to 10 wraps, 1-3 mm, duel, double, twisted, duel double twisted. + can't seem to get it above 25 watts without big throat hit or burnt cotton taste.
Getting smaller clouds than with the occ's. Nice flavour on all builds but no clouds. Would a chimney build help? Can anybody help me?

Red, @cigatron dropped a few notes on building tensioned twisted pair on the threads…

Protank MicroCoil Discussion!!
The Lemo RTA: A Build With Pics | E-Cigarette Forum

and a few other threads. He focused on screw wound tensioned spaced winds. I commented on how to attempt to optimize contact for oxidizing twisteds on the PT thread. Tension winding will aid in balancing strain for both open and closed winds, stabilizing output considerably. I vaped twisteds almost exclusively as I was perfecting building methods for straight single wind. However, these days find that the hybrid twisted lead parallels (below) are far more efficient (also mentioned there with some pic examples). Might want to give cig a poke.

Good luck.

:)

 
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cheech226

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I've tried loads of different builds on my subox mini rba. But it dosn't matter how I build and wick them I still can't get big clouds. Built From 2 to 10 wraps, 1-3 mm, duel, double, twisted, duel double twisted. + can't seem to get it above 25 watts without big throat hit or burnt cotton taste.
Getting smaller clouds than with the occ's. Nice flavour on all builds but no clouds. Would a chimney build help? Can anybody help me?

are you getting the expected resistance? some of the stm rba's can be a little wonky. what wire and mod are you using?
 
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