Hey Russ, watched your last Friday Night call in video, convinced me to buy my first rebuildable dripper rda, While all my devices/gear are original manufacturers, I plan on buying my first clone, the "Derringer rda Clone by Cigreen" At $20, versus $75 (original), it makes sense for me as I will only be dripping when I want to test new flavors, so it won't get that much use. Someone on the web said the "Cigreen" version of this clone was good, and he had bought a few different clone brands along with the original. It will also be my first dual coil capable rig. Thanks again Russ!
Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.
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Alright so I've been trying to figure out how to consistently pump these things out... I received my gizmo a couple days ago and for some reason I'm having less luck with it than I was having using a drill. I also got my Kuro tools which I'll probably end up selling because they definitely don't produce tensioned coils and the few I tried (after wasting a good bit of wire learning how to use the dang thing) end up needing squeezed and played with a bunch.
The problem that I've been having (at least using 28g) is that when I'm done, whenever I snip or let go of the end a little bit of the tension unravels. Anyone care to tell me what the problem is, I assume that I'm either pulling too tight or too loosely while winding (too much/not enough tension)?
For some reason I'm just not going to be satisfied until I get this down.
The problem that I've been having (at least using 28g) is that when I'm done, whenever I snip or let go of the end a little bit of the tension unravels. Anyone care to tell me what the problem is, I assume that I'm either pulling too tight or too loosely while winding (too much/not enough tension)?
For some reason I'm just not going to be satisfied until I get this down.
All close touching or contact coils exhibit shorting behavior. The reason is that electrons are finding a way to bypass the expected circuit path.This is resolved when adequate alumina insulation develops. It happens quickly and uniformly with a tensioned micro coil. That is when you have a proper complete circuit in electrical terms.
What do coilers bring to the table electrically?
Coilers do not impart strain. They don't result in a workable micro as is. Even as they may seem tight as you wind, the small extent of force applied is not enough to cause sufficient strain internally in the wire to impact it's shape. Rotation did. That is forming. Formed coils will relax from the original diameter (in all directions) and it is difficult to predict whether this will be tight, loose or congruent and will vary with each wire gauge and wind.
Then there's the matter of contact. Any contact touching or close may be sufficient to cause shorts. What will you do? Anneal and repeatedly compress? Torch? The first won't address differences in wind diameter or any inconsistencies turn to turn. And pulse annealing may take considerable time if you pulse without adhesion. Torching will carbonize the surface contributing to accelerated carbonized accretion and further increases in resistance. Carbonized depositions of soot or caramelized solids are thermally non-conductive and electrically conductive. Worst of both worlds. Now you have a foundation.
Some nice options there.
Or you could just wind a tensioned contact coil. The proximity assumed by the consistent strain force applied will aid rapid oxidation and you're done in a few minutes. Chances good that you'll go full micro in just a few pulses and you're off to your vape.
Seems like a plan to me.
Good luck.
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While @super_X_drifter is the qualified expert here on the gizmo hopefully some others may chime in if not on hand. From your above seems like you are winding shy of adhesion. It starts when the wire begins to take form from the strain (stretch). Like a coiler if it's a loose wind induced by mere rotation it may not be enough. Sounds like you're not applying even that much so don't be stingy.
If you're winding off a spool feed directly off it as you release wire with a slight pull. Lightly at first and keep slowly increasing the pull. You should begin to see the point where the wires get tight. Even start drawing together if they're loose…once you start to apply enough strain. If no spool try the same using a light needle nose, forceps or such to grasp and keep the loose end tight. The idea here is to be as consistent with the tension as possible.
Adhesion is the point of strain just slightly beyond when the wire starts to retain wind form, the point of closest proximity.
Good luck and knock on the door if you're still hung up.
Good luck.
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All close touching or contact coils exhibit shorting behavior. The reason is that electrons are finding a way to bypass the expected circuit path.This is resolved when adequate alumina insulation develops. It happens quickly and uniformly with a tensioned micro coil. That is when you have a proper complete circuit in electrical terms.
What do coilers bring to the table electrically?
Coilers do not impart strain. They don't result a workable micro as is. Even as they may seem tight as you wind, the small extent of force applied is not enough to cause sufficient strain internally in the wire to impact it's shape. Rotation did. That is forming. Formed coils will relax from the original diameter (in all directions) and it is difficult to predict whether this will be tight, loose or congruent and will vary with each wire gauge and wind.
Then there's the matter of contact. Any contact touching or close may be sufficient to cause shorts. What will you do? Anneal and repeatedly compress? Torch? The first won't address differences in wind diameter or any inconsistencies turn to turn. And pulse annealing may take considerable time if you pulse without adhesion. Torching will carbonize the surface contributing to accelerated carbonized accretion and further increases in resistance. Carbonized depositions of soot or caramelized solids are thermally non-conductive and electrically conductive. Worst of both worlds. Now you have a foundation.
Some nice options there.
Or you could just wind a tensioned contact coil. The proximity assumed by the consistent strain force applied will aid rapid oxidation and you're done in a few minutes. Chances good that you'll go full micro in just a few pulses and you're off to your vape.
Seems like a plan to me.
Good luck.
View attachment 455312
Anyone else?
Quote edited...While @super_X_drifter is the qualified expert here on the gizmo hopefully some others may chime in if not on hand. From your above seems like you are winding shy of adhesion. It starts when the wire begins to take form from the strain (stretch).
If you're winding off a spool feed directly off it as you release wire with a slight pull. Lightly at first and keep slowly increasing the pull. You should begin to see the point where the wires get tight. Even start drawing together if they're loose…once you start to apply enough strain. If no spool try the same using a light needle nose, forceps or such to grasp and keep the loose end tight. The idea here is to be as consistent with the tension as possible.
Adhesion as the point of strain just slightly beyond when the wire starts to retain wind form, the point of closest proximity.
I agree with Mac totally. From my experiments I found that 28ga wire needs somewhere on the order of 7lbs of strain to make it conform properly.
And if the coil is springing back, try taking the coiler 1/3 to 1/2 a turn past your final desired position ( the coil leg will drop into the desired place on its own) before you snip the wire. *Russ shows this very well in his Coil master video*
If you are using loose wire a needle nose or small clamp will give you solid grip on the wire, but constant tension is the key. If you waver more than a pound or two while you wrap the wire will show it as you start annealing it. *Also shown very well by Russ, major high 5's bro*
As for the annealing/oxidation process, I do mine progressively similar to Russ but with a regulated box starting with 10 watts, then 30 and finally 50 to set the oxidation. Most defects are seen before I get to 50 watts.
Hope that helps. Send me a pm if you've got any questions, I'll be happy to try and help.
Russ, I'm still on the fence on the coil-master but it was a damn fine video and an excellent show of technique that most of us forget to mention because we do it as instinct anymore... well done Brother.
Yes, my coils jump a few hundredths as I oxidize them and settle rather quickly.
Not positive on exactly why, but they do. As far as fighting a non-tensioned coil to make it work as well as a tensioned one... never again.
:2c
True that. Typically. But in production scale evaluations (we're talkin' hundreds here) bad circuit path bypass at higher power levels can result in some extreme variations. Often as much as twice the resistance, or more! These are the things many of us don't notice in our ordinary coil winds. And I'm not operating lab conditions. Just the necessary redundancy of gear to do practical comparison testing.
As to a t.m.c. and what it gives us, for the folks landing here E, bear with me. It's about setting the benchmark. Just what can this wind give me? What is this wire and wick combo capable of handling? Is this extensible to more complex winds? Will this flow rate hold up in smaller building environments? In a tank? With less air? But it has to start with a basis we can replicate in realistic terms.
Good luck all.
p.s. I should note the above mentioned coils did not go full micro. LOL These were results from research on oxidation procedure conducted under a wide variety of circumstances of target resistance and power. All had major deficiencies of skew distortion, dia or contact inconsistences accompanying the normal initial lack of oxidation. IOW, rejects.
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I agree with wasting wire for testing lol, I do it a lot myself.True that. Typically. But in production scale evaluations (we're talkin' hundreds here) bad circuit path bypass at higher power levels can result in some extreme variations. Often as much as twice the resistance, or more! These are the things many of us don't notice in our ordinary coil winds. And I'm not operating lab conditions. Just the necessary redundancy of gear to do practical comparison testing.
As to a t.m.c. and what it gives us, for the folks landing here E, bear with me. It's about setting the benchmark. Just what can this wind give me? What is this wire and wick combo capable of handling? Is this extensible to more complex winds? Will this flow rate hold up in smaller building environments? In a tank? With less air? But it has to start with a basis we can replicate in realistic terms.
Good luck all.
p.s. I should note the above mentioned coils did not go full micro. LOL These were results from research on oxidation procedure conducted under a wide variety of circumstances of target resistance and power. All had major deficiencies of skew distortion, dia or contact inconsistences accompanying the normal initial lack of oxidation. IOW, rejects.
And yes, when testing and I miss the target my resistance goes through the roof. I'm not positive on why, but another coil with more tension and precision (firing at 80w and above here & around .2-.3Ω) they seem to even out quite well.
Also, if the wick doesn't keep up with the coil there will be problems, just the same as inadequate airflow with increased heat.
Best of luck folks
Guys I started using the coil master 2 days ago just because i didnt have 2mm in the coil gizmo and superx liked it. I noticed something very interesting. In the pic below both coils are wound using the coil master. Now I appreciate the consistency of tension wrapping. Although using a coil master you can achieve it, it wasn't repeatable it seems. See how the left coil has this 3 wraps in black and with no liquid? These 3 wraps are getting hotter than other wraps and other coil. It is obvious! And believe me when I tell u when it is not wicked you cannot see a difference between the 2 coils even when fired!
Superx if you are able to produce a consistent coil with the coil master every time then kudos to you. I couldn't! But yes it beats taking out my gizmo and tensioning in terms of convenience. Is the hassle worth getting perfect coils! For me heck yeah. Tensioning is my comfort zone. And I've seen it first hand.
Superx if you are able to produce a consistent coil with the coil master every time then kudos to you. I couldn't! But yes it beats taking out my gizmo and tensioning in terms of convenience. Is the hassle worth getting perfect coils! For me heck yeah. Tensioning is my comfort zone. And I've seen it first hand.
After zooming in Aal, I see exactly what you mean and I have to agree that I don't get that when I use tension.Guys I started using the coil master 2 days ago just because i didnt have 2mm in the coil gizmo and superx liked it. I noticed something very interesting. In the pic below both coils are wound using the coil master. Now I appreciate the consistency of tension wrapping. Although using a coil master you can achieve it, it wasn't repeatable it seems. See how the left coil has this 3 wraps in black and with no liquid? These 3 wraps are getting hotter than other wraps and other coil. It is obvious! And believe me when I tell u when it is not wicked you cannot see a difference between the 2 coils even when fired!
Superx if you are able to produce a consistent coil with the coil master every time then kudos to you. I couldn't! But yes it beats taking out my gizmo and tensioning in terms of convenience. Is the hassle worth getting perfect coils! For me heck yeah. Tensioning is my comfort zone. And I've seen it first hand.
Also, unless I'm testing I normally just crank out 10 or so coils and put them up for later.
Thanks for the clear visual, I'll start looking for similar things in my test builds.
What do alternatives bring to the table?
Benefits of tension winding Kanthal based vaporizing elements to adhesion for uniform oxidation
I would love for something as intrinsically elegant as a coil winder to produce enough strain. Alas, the physics aren't there. And there's far more to those physics beyond properly completing the circuit with oxidation that makes a contact coil explode with vapor production. It's the geometry which creates a perfect compressible concentrated thermal environment for the wick. And another important aspect of physics...internal expansion pressures beneath the even surface deflection of a t.m.c. and the wick. Therefore, rapid drops in evaporation temperature! Not to mention the excellent thermal conductivity of alumina, its high resistance to heat corrosion (considerably more than the wire itself) and that it (ceramic) so perfectly isolates the product from the underling metals. It's an ideal complement to existing, potential equally neutral and beneficial ceramic wicking options. Did I mention neutral taste when oxidized? No, too many factors to sacrifice and too much work to make up working from a lesser starting point.
Of course we experienced tension winders know how the precise parameters of a t.m.c. makes the performance of ordinary cotton and rayon utterly controllable and predictable.
I am baffled at the number here on ECF extolling alternatives where the science is just the opposite! I am truly saddened by this reality but not one bit that I have made the effort here along with so many of you. Thank you. Thank you all.
Wish you all the greatest of luck and that many more join us setting this important baseline for others.
We need them!
Benefits of tension winding Kanthal based vaporizing elements to adhesion for uniform oxidation
I would love for something as intrinsically elegant as a coil winder to produce enough strain. Alas, the physics aren't there. And there's far more to those physics beyond properly completing the circuit with oxidation that makes a contact coil explode with vapor production. It's the geometry which creates a perfect compressible concentrated thermal environment for the wick. And another important aspect of physics...internal expansion pressures beneath the even surface deflection of a t.m.c. and the wick. Therefore, rapid drops in evaporation temperature! Not to mention the excellent thermal conductivity of alumina, its high resistance to heat corrosion (considerably more than the wire itself) and that it (ceramic) so perfectly isolates the product from the underling metals. It's an ideal complement to existing, potential equally neutral and beneficial ceramic wicking options. Did I mention neutral taste when oxidized? No, too many factors to sacrifice and too much work to make up working from a lesser starting point.
Of course we experienced tension winders know how the precise parameters of a t.m.c. makes the performance of ordinary cotton and rayon utterly controllable and predictable.
I am baffled at the number here on ECF extolling alternatives where the science is just the opposite! I am truly saddened by this reality but not one bit that I have made the effort here along with so many of you. Thank you. Thank you all.
Wish you all the greatest of luck and that many more join us setting this important baseline for others.
We need them!
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Thanks for the effort and pic @Aal_. I had some success getting good symmetry with fat wire. And you can fail with tension. Here's an example I might have posted earlier on a VHO Raiju...
First, I'm with @etherealink as I like to build outboard center-posts to capture as much airflow as possible. On VHO style dual-post centers I cross over the T as above. E gets amazing power out of tension winds. I seldom stray much over 60W (.3Ω, 4.2v).
I skewered this wind from Dec last and ultimately pulled it keeping some pics as very visual example of failed oxidation. For both sides, irregular strain is evident. BTW, I generally don't blow air on or use external aids but allow it to happen naturally by low-v pulsing. If it's there great, if not, no worries. Wire color temp should be your guide. Too early oxidation, a flashing yellow light. In the foreground it started over-tight. The background, I realized it and backed off but irregularly. Should have rewound the first. Consequently, the tighter wind began to oxidize first and out of balance in oxidation and wire color to the opposing element. If you catch it within one or two pulses you can sometimes pull this off by inserting another coil. Didn't. Both winds are in adhesion but inconsistent strain still leads to uneven surface temps. It will most certainly affect production.
Now that's what happens when you have a proper tool. What if you don't? Get's us back to the coilers. The problem is strain. No way to induce it consistently by forming. And it's not merely adding to strain to form rigidity which we can do with electrical annealing. It's the fact that the wire already has uneven strain. An irregular distribution of atoms. This we address with annealing or accelerate to that with tension if we impart the necessary energy into the wire in the wind to achieve it through the strain force.
It is that advantage of molecular uniformity that we're seeking. In so doing we enhance the potential for uniform oxidation by smoothing electron flow. And just sufficient to improve upon the molecular structure such that the alumina layer created is adequate to insulate within the voltage ranges that we operate. Any more than that and we overheat. Any less than that (adhesion) and no complete circuit from a microcoil.
Again ladies and gentlemen I marvel that we have the sensitivity to perceive it and recreate it. But then how many masterpieces do we all achieve, each in our own way. Start with a good canvas.
Good luck all.
First, I'm with @etherealink as I like to build outboard center-posts to capture as much airflow as possible. On VHO style dual-post centers I cross over the T as above. E gets amazing power out of tension winds. I seldom stray much over 60W (.3Ω, 4.2v).
I skewered this wind from Dec last and ultimately pulled it keeping some pics as very visual example of failed oxidation. For both sides, irregular strain is evident. BTW, I generally don't blow air on or use external aids but allow it to happen naturally by low-v pulsing. If it's there great, if not, no worries. Wire color temp should be your guide. Too early oxidation, a flashing yellow light. In the foreground it started over-tight. The background, I realized it and backed off but irregularly. Should have rewound the first. Consequently, the tighter wind began to oxidize first and out of balance in oxidation and wire color to the opposing element. If you catch it within one or two pulses you can sometimes pull this off by inserting another coil. Didn't. Both winds are in adhesion but inconsistent strain still leads to uneven surface temps. It will most certainly affect production.
Now that's what happens when you have a proper tool. What if you don't? Get's us back to the coilers. The problem is strain. No way to induce it consistently by forming. And it's not merely adding to strain to form rigidity which we can do with electrical annealing. It's the fact that the wire already has uneven strain. An irregular distribution of atoms. This we address with annealing or accelerate to that with tension if we impart the necessary energy into the wire in the wind to achieve it through the strain force.
It is that advantage of molecular uniformity that we're seeking. In so doing we enhance the potential for uniform oxidation by smoothing electron flow. And just sufficient to improve upon the molecular structure such that the alumina layer created is adequate to insulate within the voltage ranges that we operate. Any more than that and we overheat. Any less than that (adhesion) and no complete circuit from a microcoil.
Again ladies and gentlemen I marvel that we have the sensitivity to perceive it and recreate it. But then how many masterpieces do we all achieve, each in our own way. Start with a good canvas.
Good luck all.
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How much tension are people actually adding to their line? Wouldn't it be possible for a coiler jig to also add tension via a bobbin holder (like a sewing machine) on the size of the jig? You could adjust the spring pressure in the bobbin holder to hold a more accurate amount of tension than hand resistance.
*EDIT* or even better something like this for tying flies for fishing!
*EDIT* or even better something like this for tying flies for fishing!
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Hey, welcome red. I think a bobbin might make an excellent hand hold to feed a jig and regulate release tension, yes. It would make for a more even flow definitely. But for a coiler, either the coiler would have to rotate vs. the bobbin or vice-versa. The rotating forming part of the coiler would rotate in synch. Got four hands? Like the bobbin tho.
Got me to thinkin'…how could I stabilize one of those at my workstation…so I could use it to feed a pin vise (for parallels or twisted). Would the clutch provide enough resistance? Wondering aloud here. The drag would have to be substantial.
Good luck.
Doesn't look like these would give enough tension, as they are made for thread, not wire. Might be cool if something that small would tho.
Hey, welcome red. I think a bobbin might make an excellent hand hold to feed a jig and regulate release tension, yes. It would make for a more even flow definitely. But for a coiler, either the coiler would have to rotate vs. the bobbin or vice-versa. The rotating forming part of the coiler would rotate in synch. Got four hands? Like the bobbin tho.
Got me to thinkin'…how could I stabilize one of those at my workstation…so I could use it to feed a pin vise (for parallels or twisted). Would the clutch provide enough resistance? Wondering aloud here. The drag would have to be substantial.
Good luck.
My idea was to physically attach it to the head of the coiler. Then you just rotate the base side of the coiler and the head/bobbin remains stationary.
I believe there are some that are designed for wire instead of thread.
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