Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

[MacTechVpr]

Pin vise for the win. But hands got all crampy!

Got fed up of making parallel work neatly. This method is way better and more stable. Dunno what you call it.

I dubbed that a Twisted Lead Center Post. Matty's description for the original non-tensioned dual right-hand wind was rather long as I recall. I see you wound yours in opposition which makes it possible for both positive twained leads to exit together from the wind. This isn't ideal for bottom terminating tank situations like the Protank and now Subtank OCC (see p.s.) I would add that a wide variety of wire gauges can be adapted for the latter with a 9mm internal width of the new box assembly. TLCP's are ideally suited for bottom termination as the twists very securely lock both the wire strain and termination. I haven't done with anything thicker than 30AWG as yet.

Aal I always use some type of clamp when I make this to hold both coils tight to the bit. And I squeeze the clamp firmly to ensure no slipping. That could cause turns to separate and for the diameters to expand as well. Having that firm hold you can add some tension to the positive leads as they're twised. As you may see from the above a fine tight twist can be achieved by slow deliberate winding with a pin vise. The more even the twists the less likely you'll develop separations which can result in hot segments of the coil or even the leads themselves.

This wasn't a particularly good one but it was for the lead twist. To get that the wire lengths must be pretty exactly even as inserted and locked into the PV. If not the wind will go uneven maybe even separate. Also, if you tension it the looser of the two may snap. Did break many myself before I got better at matching up the pair. Now looking at turbo's tool it would seem it could be dual purpose in providing a very solid hand hold for creating these center lead twists!

Good luck Aal.



p.s. If counter wound or opposed twists, the exit path of the pos leads will present together. The coil will not appear to be a single coil when viewed from top but will nonetheless be a joined t.m.c. at the bottom. They do fire together just like a single coil as those of you who've made these know. And once oxidized heat up just as uniformly. I mention this as the matched (ex. both RH) winds are ideally suited for bottom terminating tanks (very balanced at the set). The matched wound pair is perfect for three post RTA/RBA's. And this is what I run in Sentinel's, MutX, Patriot's with heavy solid post configurations with positive exiting the bottom of the bit. By far the most powerful stable wind I've done. And the greatest contact patch to wire height profile you can achieve in a single coil (although technically two). So it does have a space in the middle or a split-wick if you will which some folks may like. Arguably, it might make some better vapor.

 

[MacTechVpr]

preconceived notions suck, don't believe anything until you validate it yourself. I promise you that once you try this wrapper all of your preconceived notions will go out the window

LOL. Great story. I'm an addicted back yard mechanic myself. But I leaned early on to try replacin' the air filter before you start droppin' the engine. So no, no assumptions. Too lazy for that my friend. In fact I'm just prolly the most skeptical builder in the room. So I don't fault folks at all for wanting to try it and test it all themselves. That's not what I'm talkin' about here. My goal is to make sure we all have the tools that we need to get the job done. And if your tool makes a better widget, I'm down.

Good luck T.



p.s. I did mention way back in ECF history, I drive a Lincoln TC (for the airbags). Bought it from a little old lady in Coral Gables (her gardener). For $3500, no b-ssin' and rebuilt this parking lot disaster with 35K miles myself (mostly), inside and out (including interior leather refinishing). You see, I had a small leather clothing biz back in my long haired, had-some-hair, hippy days). Had to, the gardener was drivin' her around on account of her hittin' every dang pole in the lot and the interior was as badly greased up as the stearin' wheel. Speakin' of airbags, just had 'em redone…but by a real limo service professional. Some jobs you just have to rely on the expertise of those who've done a few.

 

[Aal_]

Not perfectly mounted but wow ... talk about performance. 0.35 ohms 28 gauge.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Not perfectly mounted but wow ... talk about performance. 0.35 ohms 28 gauge.

Good job Aal and they're reasonably tight. That's about my RDA res target too. Oxidation's tricky on these tho but you'll work through it. Yes, it's a lot of contact area. And proportionately a lot of wire doin' heavy lifting rather than heating atmosphere. You need airflow for these as you obviously accounted for with your set.

First few times out getting the craft of the lead twist is a challenge. I hurried my first few back in Jun last year anxious to test the idea. But that's what tightens up the symmetry particularly keeping the natural pitch between the pairs matched up so that exit of the leads is clean (no spacing at the joint). Spacing of lead contact and coil-to-coil hampers efficiency (go warmer than they should). Don't worry if they don't look perfect. They may not always align precisely on the bit axis when opposed winds. It's what happens inside the wire that matters…how they fire and function. It will clean up as you do a few and it will show in the oxidation, as well how cool they operate relative to a fat wire t.m.c. of the same res. But it's a warm vape. Lot of output for the space. Even when efficient.

One way I use on occasion, usually with thinner wire, is to wrap a really long coil. Split in the middle with a pin or such and separated (unwound at center) then cut, you end up with two nearly identical coils to form the pair. Easier to keep the pitch consistent with [any] wire. Wind two like this of course if you want opposed wound dual coils (quads).

This wind allows you to put a lot of effective power in a confined space with fast firing light wire. Where quads would be a challenge to keep aligned and wicked properly. Thought it was great craft when I first saw Matty's non-t.m.c. build but as you've seen it's got guts and even more with uniform strain.

Enjoy and good luck Aal.

 

[Aal_]

Good job Aal and they're reasonably tight. That's about my RDA res target too. Oxidation's tricky on these tho but you'll work through it. Yes, it's a lot of contact area. And proportionately a lot of wire doin' heavy lifting rather than heating atmosphere. You need airflow for these as you obviously accounted for with your set.

First few times out getting the craft of the lead twist is a challenge. I hurried my first few back in Jun last year anxious to test the idea. But that's what tightens up the symmetry particularly keeping the natural pitch between the pairs matched up so that exit of the leads is clean (no spacing at the joint). Spacing of lead contact and coil-to-coil hampers efficiency (go warmer than they should). Don't worry if they don't look perfect. They may not always align precisely on the bit axis when opposed winds. It's what happens inside the wire that matters…how they fire and function. It will clean up as you do a few and it will show in the oxidation, as well how cool they operate relative to a fat wire t.m.c. of the same res. But it's a warm vape. Lot of output for the space. Even when efficient.

One way I use on occasion, usually with thinner wire, is to wrap a really long coil. Split in the middle with a pin or such and separated (unwound at center) then cut, you end up with two nearly identical coils to form the pair. Easier to keep the pitch consistent with thicker wire. Wind two like this of course if you want opposed wound dual coils (quads).

This wind allows you to put a lot of effective power in a confined space with fast firing light wire. Where quads would be a challenge to keep aligned and wicked properly. Thought it was great craft when I first saw Matty's non-t.m.c. build but as you've seen it's got guts.

Enjoy and good luck Aal.

Well thanks mac. It works perfectly. More surface area and multiple coils keeps your coils in better shape. As long as you have a reasonable heat up time, you have a better vape for the same watts .

 

[turbocad6]

hey guys, I put a new thread up for my turbo coil wrapper here: How To Build The Turbo Coil Winder | E-Cigarette Forum I think i've clogged up this microcoil thread already too much so I think it def needs it's own thread, I put the video guide to builing it in the first post and I'm going to add a written guide there too first chance I get

 

[MacTechVpr]

Lifted from the thread post 426 ReadyXWick - Round 2 | Page 22 | E-Cigarette Forum, some thoughts on winding basics.

I have never explored the coiler/jig world. I have just always used my crude method. I broke off a tip from a 16 gauge leur needle and put it in a pin vice. I put a permanent mark on my pin vice with a sharpie, I then just loosen it up slightly, put in the wire at the mark, tighten it back down and wind directly from the spool applying tension by pulling on the spool as I wind with the pin vice. I count the wraps by counting how many time the little black mark comes around then cut, loosen the vice, slide off, all done. They don't come out perfect I'm sure but to eye they come out good and I have had no issues with hot legs etc.

If they're spreading at all rudy, you're still shy of the tight fit we're lookin' for. What I refer to as closest proximity. Stands to reason that the more firm the pressure on the iron, the better the press. Same principle. As close as nature allows is exactly that.

Then…when you pulse you get very quick oxidation. Very even insulation. That's the goal. That's what turns a shorting contact coil into a proper complete circuit much less likely to produce hot turns or leads…in operation. TRUE…good symmetry will give you a working result. But that stability changes the minute we apply a working power level (resistance goes up in operation). More than the 3.5-3.7V that we use to pulse the coil.

The higher the power we intend to use the better the insulation must be. Strain in the wire keeps the wind tight. Gives every pulse we apply the best chance of layin' down alumina in a consistent way. There's where the payoff is. And what is that benefit? We've reduced the amount of wasted energy that would otherwise bypass the circuit.

All winds work. But that's not what we're talkin' about here. It's how good an insulation we put down for the power we want to apply.

I pitch tension winding because it's been used forever. From the first time we wound wire into hoops for chain. For us this ancient tech has an electrical benefit. And it's extremely easy to do. But a blunt needle may not be firm enough to let you strain the wire if it's a thicker gauge.

Don't forget it's about leverage and using the edge of the spool as a rest for the bit. This is key. It's what let's you multiply the force by letting you pull against the wire using the light strength of both forearms. Rather than just wrists or fingers. These we want more relaxed to sense the pressure we're applying to the spool, the bit and the wire. Shake out your hands if you get tight.

In your case for 3mm, a used 3/32" drill bit will do ya just fine. Start with a few loose wraps until you see them tighten. Then practice adding just a little more pull. The result you will eventually see in your vape with a significant cool down of the vapor. In fact, more of it as due to the even distribution of heat across the coil (rather than lost to air). As I note often, the tell for too much strain is when the heat goes up for the same wind.

If you've used just enough and just a tad more than needed to get 'em to stick together as in my above you're going to be golden.

You can also use strain to make open winds that are rigid and stable on a screw using the same pin vise. While it won't produce the concentrated power of a tensioned micro if well oxidized will resist warping much better.

Good luck rudy.

 

[rudy4653]

Got it, thanks!
Still using my 2mm wick with 29 gauge wire. I'll try the resting the pin vise/mandrell on edge of spool method you described as I now understand that it would provide more tension then I'm currently getting by just pulling on the spool as I wind with my wrist & fingers. Great tip!

 

[AllPepperS]

Pin vise is working well for me Mac. I did watch your video several times. My wire is mostly on the bigger spools so it's not hard to hold. Thing is after I get them seasoned and wicked other than changing the wick out and dry burning them a bit to clean they last a long time. I haven't got it to a complete reflex yet and sometimes have to rethink it over again when I need to make a new coil. But I have to say It's working well for me. I do need to put a mark on it so I can see the wrap count a bit better.

I have the stuff to make Turbos coil winder but haven't had that kind of time to do it yet. When time allows I will do it to try to, but right now, pin vise and spool are doing it for me, thank you

 

[MacTechVpr]

Got it, thanks!
Still using my 2mm wick with 29 gauge wire. I'll try the resting the pin vise/mandrell on edge of spool method you described as I now understand that it would provide more tension then I'm currently getting by just pulling on the spool as I wind with my wrist & fingers. Great tip!

Hate to struggle rudy. Don't have the best hands. So leverage is the ticket. Thx.

Pin vise is working well for me Mac. I did watch your video several times. My wire is mostly on the bigger spools so it's not hard to hold. Thing is after I get them seasoned and wicked other than changing the wick out and dry burning them a bit to clean they last a long time. I haven't got it to a complete reflex yet and sometimes have to rethink it over again when I need to make a new coil. But I have to say It's working well for me. I do need to put a mark on it so I can see the wrap count a bit better.

Glad to hear that APS. Have been trying to emphasize consistency and oxidation this year as that's the goal really. Taking advantage of that aspect of Kanthal which makes a contact micro possible. Good oxidation makes it pop.

Ya'll know I'm here if ya need me. Give a shout.

G'luck.

 

[rudy4653]

One last question.
So do you have a tip on how to apply the same type tension as resting on the spool with a single wire when building a parallel coil using 2 wires?

 

[MacTechVpr]

One last question.
So do you have a tip on how to apply the same type tension as resting on the spool with a single wire when building a parallel coil using 2 wires?

For parallel twisted leads cut the approx. length needed plus an extra inch or so. Steam Engine's a good tool for figuring out how much. These days use a second PV with a small screw to hold the closed (loop) end stuck in a corner of a desk drawer. Manually start the first turn of the winding PV then balance the tension for the pair.

IOW the pair is taught, flat and even in length as you start to apply strain. This may require manually tweezing the entire length adjusting the float around the bit or screw on the other PV until they are as visually matched as possible. Strain at that point will do the rest keeping them parallel and in adhesion.

I'd suggest though making sure you've got a single down first. That you're winding at a consistent tension. Best way to tell is to do a dual pair. See how they fire up. Tensioned pairs usually light pretty consistently. Mind you there are wire imperfections too. Lately I'm thinkin' a lot of debris on the wire. So alcohol wipe if you get a lot. The more of these, the more gaps you may see and so dark spots. Low voltage first couple of pulses will usually reveal if you have a keeper. That is, the wind was uniform and wire itself no kinks, bends or runout issues. Understand that diameter of wire can be inconsistent. It is flattening as you stress the wire. If it's not steady, you'll have variations in thickness across the wind. Enough and wire temp changes under load.

It really is usually better to toss 'em if they're not up to par. Like I say, you've gotta live with the vape. Might as well be as good as it gets. When you get stable, even, fast-firing wire color temp whether single or parallel like in the video I posted to you (below), you know you're there…



Good luck rudy. Like I said, we're here anytime.

 

[rudy4653]

For parallel twisted leads cut the approx. length needed plus an extra inch or so. Steam Engine's a good tool for figuring out how much. These days use a second PV with a small screw to hold the closed (loop) end stuck in a corner of a desk drawer. Manually start the first turn of the winding PV then balance the tension for the pair.

IOW the pair is taught, flat and even in length as you start to apply strain. This may require manually tweezing the entire length adjusting the float around the bit or screw on the other PV until they are as visually matched as possible. Strain at that point will do the rest keeping them parallel and in adhesion.

I'd suggest though making sure you've got a single down first. That you're winding at a consistent tension. Best way to tell is to do a dual pair. See how they fire up. Tensioned pairs usually light pretty consistently. Mind you there are wire imperfections too. Lately I'm thinkin' a lot of debris on the wire. So alcohol wipe if you get a lot. The more of these, the more gaps you may see and so dark spots. Low voltage first couple of pulses will usually reveal if you have a keeper. That is, the wind was uniform and wire itself no kinks, bends or runout issues. Understand that diameter of wire can be inconsistent. It is flattening as you stress the wire. If it's not steady, you'll have variations in thickness across the wind. Enough and wire temp changes under load.

It really is usually better to toss 'em if they're not up to par. Like I say, you've gotta live with the vape. Might as well be as good as it gets. When you get stable, even, fast-firing wire color temp whether single or parallel like in the video I posted to you (below), you know you're there…



Good luck rudy. Like I said, we're here anytime.

Got it, Thanks as always!!

 

[Mactavish]

Pin vise is working well for me Mac. I did watch your video several times. My wire is mostly on the bigger spools so it's not hard to hold. Thing is after I get them seasoned and wicked other than changing the wick out and dry burning them a bit to clean they last a long time. I haven't got it to a complete reflex yet and sometimes have to rethink it over again when I need to make a new coil. But I have to say It's working well for me. I do need to put a mark on it so I can see the wrap count a bit better.

I have the stuff to make Turbos coil winder but haven't had that kind of time to do it yet. When time allows I will do it to try to, but right now, pin vise and spool are doing it for me, thank you

Where is the link to "video"?

 

[MacTechVpr]

Dealing with Triangle Vape for some time on odds and ends. Some great prices on incidentals and low end startup gear. Have two of my fav Pinoy devices. Outstanding deal on some remaining colors for the Smok BT50 (my fav low end box). But some interesting values on a few of the recommended batt's here…

LG 18650HE4 2500mah 20A/35A NMC - Triangle Vape LLC
Samsung INR18650-25R 2500mah 20A NCA - Triangle Vape LLC
Sony US18650VTC4 2100mah 30A - Triangle Vape LLC

Run their Sony's and LG's. Good punch, initial reads and consistent recharge results. Across multiple chargers. Cases included on purchased pairs (nice touch).

Recently noticed the Opus BT-C3100 4 Bay Charger, a formidable recharger batt analyzer (discharger/refresher) is stocked. The 3100 was superseded by this version (v2) which addressed firmware overheating issues. It is equiv to the 3400 I believe except for a light on/off switch feature. An outstanding price for this. ordered it, good thing…put it through it's paces and a very nice device to complement my array of top end chargers.

Folks know I seldom refer but reliable good service here.

Good luck all.

 

[AllPepperS]

Hey Mac, Happy Fourth, Turbo's clamp/nippers works well with the pin vice

 

[MacTechVpr]

Hey Mac, Happy Fourth, Turbo's clamp/nippers works well with the pin vice

That's good news AP. Still not seeing how it elongates the wire but I'll get 'round to it with Turbo one of these days. Glad it's workin' for ya. Don't forget at the end of the day it's about getting the most effective oxidation down. The more consistent the contact, the better.

A fine 4th to all of ya's.



Good luck.

 

[qiubicfit]

Great work Russ, very interesting, from some of the videos you made regarding building coils
I remember they were for the majority of their times being build with 29g, I also started with a 29g
and it appeared my coils were lasting longer and staying free from juice gunk longer, from there as I got futher along, I began to test different guages and see how each performed. On alot of RDA's I did go to 28g and I did see an increase in heat and rampup times. Also gone to 26g, 24g, but found that on the rda's it was a super hot vape which I personally don't prefer, I am a strictly mouth to lung, and a much cooler vape, one the reason I fell in love with my REO's was it's RM2's draw and cool vape. On my Odin's I use 28g dual at .8, on my RM's I run 29g, KFL+v2 29g 1.0, Russian's 29g 1.0-1.4, and now with the whole TC revolution, I run 28g nickel ... thanks Russ, really enjoy finding great info regarding coil and gauge performance......

Vape on.....

 

[Mactavish]

Hi Qiubicfit,
Nice to see your numbers as I vape like you. Confirms for me I'm in the zone I like. After watching one of Russ's (SuperX) videos, I went from 28 to 29 gauge kanthal. A 6 wrap, on 2mm, gives me approx. 1.2 ohms, on a Chalice 3, to run on my new Reo Mini 14500.

QUESTIONS for any experts, I'm new to building.

1) After the build, before heating coil, I read .6 ohms, (I test with an ohm meter, and a few regulated mods to double check).
I thought that was oddly LOW. Then after some slow dry burns, heating the coil, the ohms came up to my target of 1.2 ohms. Is this NORMAL behavior? Do the coils read low ohms before firing the coils, then increase in ohms and normalize to the target point?

2) My first few builds on the Chalice 3, have been rough, trying to center the coil between the posts, keeping the right distance to the edge of the atty where the single air hole is located, and then trying to get the wire around the posts as this atty has no post holes. Originally I tried to make the wire go clockwise on both posts, but this forced me to make too many bends and disturbed and spread the end coils a lot. Messy and took forever. The picture on the TOP shows an example of this post wiring, it was 7 wraps. This was the best of the three I made, not good.

The photo on the BOTTOM is something I just built, 6 wraps. Here I only had to make two bends, as I decided I could ignore the clockwise direction of the post screws, and just capture the wires on the front part of the posts, and not bother trying to actually wrap the wire around the posts. Seems tight enough for a good long lasting connection, and is neater, and was less time and easier to build.

Any ADVISE or FEEDBACK is welcome, especially if you build on the latest Chalice 3, as the post placements are different then they were on previous versions. Thanks!

NOTE: I know this is not a build thread, so I may post this elsewhere as well to get help in learning.

 

[Flavored]

I would expect that to be the tight wind you have there (nice work) with the coils touching/shorting, then insulating themselves after oxidation. Never had one increase quite that much, though.