Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

[Robbert]

I did a quick search and there are 50 grades of stainless steel using Britian measurements.
It's definitely making me think twice about avoiding clones or even brands that won't list metals used.
Kind of makes sense why the copycat tank never did taste right.Had a machine oil taste and I scrubbed it using alcohol several times.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I think I made a mistake thinking stainless steel is always magnetic but I guess that not always the case.
It turns out austenitic stainless steel,used in food handling stainless such as sinks,cups,etc... isn't magnetic.
I was using a magnet to pick up loose kenthal wire scraps and was surprised when it didn't stick to 454.
I have some extremely strong magnets stored away.I'll try them later just out of curiosity.If there is any
If it is food-handling stainless maybe it shouldn't be magnetic.
I don't know if there is any way to test austenitic stainless steel but I'll do some checking.
Maybe tanks or parts that come into contact with e-liquids is austenitic stainless steel.

Way to go there Bob, lol. Just spent a good part of my afternoon going thru my collection lookin' for s.s. impostors.

Kryptonite Vapors orig pages (domain) aren't available these days due to DC Comics' objections to a vape company using the common word kryptonite. I'd hoped to find more info.

The company still makes these fine atty's available as Raven's Moon Vapor right here in the U.S. of A. Whether that should continue depends on our good friends at the F.D. of A's we have in Washington.

Good luck.

 

[Robbert]

I took apart the 454 best I could and there's 4 components,5 if one pulls out steel tip mouth tip insert.
I'll name parts like a combustion engine.
The piston sleeve might be 2-3 parts pressed together.The groove gets thicker by forcing a finger nail in it as one rolls the sleeve on leg.I can't get it apart.
The sleeve that's adjust air flow,the head are not magnetic.
The inner combustion sleeve and tip insert are slightly magnetic
Finally the atomizer is strongly magnetic.
Conclusions,it's definitely made from different grades of steel and my favorite tank.
I tried seeing if I could find anything about type of material it was made from with no results,but I never did see stainless except the mouthpiece insert has a SS brushed appearance.
I'm glad I got them for it'll help me pick my next tank.It has just the amount of airyness I like with just one port open.
I'm finding I get much denser clouds,a richer cooler vapor if the airyness or resistance is close to mouth to lung,but I direct lung.
I would describe the resistance as drinking liquid from a McDonalds soda straw.The more airy types seem to produce too hot,not as dense or flavorful clouds.
My 15watt segilei blows much thicker clouds from the 454 than my pico does at 40watts and sub ohm coil because of the ability to take slow long full direct lung hits.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Thx for your ..... I'll have to find the time at some point to break some of my honey's down. Embarrassed to admit I've never seen 'em that naked.

Think 454's design is very efficient and productive even for cloud chasers like myself who can't dispense with flavor. Using t.m.c.'s tho I've never had to build this atty south of 24 AWG, Fixed a/f there mebe starts to present limitations thereabouts. Do diffuse vaporization with some productive juices by opening all afc. Surprisingly this is one of the few RDA's I've found where this doesn't appreciably mute flavor. So my study continues on favorable builds for high-output wicking like Nextel to take advantage of this.

Nice to run across another density builder. Enjoy the vape Rob.

Good luck.

 

[Robbert]

I went a bit over board on the 454.

I'm getting better on coil building,but a jig still looks tempting.Coil master looks okay so does the gizmo.The gizmo will build a tension coil but not sure on coil master.

I'd like to build a hotter coil for my segilei 15 watt.It will fire a 1.6-1.8 in 26 gauge and produces a thick dense cloud but too cool in temp.
I going to try some different gauge kanthan and different wicking material.
Are there wicking materials that give better flavor?
Ill do some more research on wire sizes for single winds.
I'll also get 23-34 gauge kanthal and maybe some temperature controlled wire.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Nah, good job Rob. I keep the calipers handy myself.

The Sig 15W will fire 1.3Ω or close if you're lucky. Kidney puncher for K A-1 23, 25 AWG. Really urge everyone to try Nextel from RBA Supplies (if you're successful by now uniformly oxidizing a t.m.c.). You're right on the gizmo. Just have to watch over-tensioning to avoid hot leads and end turns. Coilers form or bend wire. Tension is strain. You need a jig or any device that can turn the wire under strain (and not just by squeezing the wire into Ø). It's the resulting elongation produced by tension beyond closest proximity that begins the process of internal reordering.

Have you gotten to stable contact yet Rob? What did oxidation look like? Maybe that's why you're now a bit too cool now. And yes, time to increase wattage now that you have better production. Find your temp pref now that you have the density to play with.

I'd like to see some posted. I'll be making some additions here soon myself. Gotta run. It's late.

Good luck.

 

[Robbert]

I'll take a few pictures of both a hot and cool coil.
There's a video showing a tension contact wind using a coil gizmo.Its the only type I've seen where one can apply tension and not have to unwind first or last wind.
With a contact coil where winds touch together do they fuse during oxidation?
After I get caught up,which never happens,I'll experiment so more on coils.
Back to the stainless steel,I've been looking at possible next RDA tanks and some list grade of stainless used.Theres several food grades of SS,it's all austenic and weakly magnetic.I think it was grades 304,316,and there are a few more.
I'm leaning towards RDA dripper tanks,Avocado,Therom and I do like jaybo designs,looks,and most of all price.The kayfun V5 clone I'll have to try.Ill just be sure to get one from the better clone companies that list materials used.

 

[Templar1191]

Looks like I found the real vapers in this thread
I watched some of your videos super a while back and thought they were quite good. That setup you have with the bottom feeding RDA atomizers, where you squeeze more fluid into the wick from a reservoir on the mod is a really great idea. I was thinking about this a wee while back but I was thinking a different design that would have been much more complex to implement (top dripping instead of bottom)

I havent had the privilege of reading the whole 75 page thread, but I just thought I would stop in and get a basic idea for these tensioned micro coils. So the idea is have them very tightly wound to improve heat transfer throughout the coil? Even heating?

I am also interested in the micro coils. I like the larger coils because they hold more juice in an RDA, but I think the extra thickness of cotton and heating area on larger coils may be a disadvantage. However, it gets into some very complex heat transfer principles and I think critical insulation thickness may have a part to play.

Did you know that if you put too much insulation around a hot pipe, it can actually cool it faster than if the pipe had no insulation? Mind boggling huh. Its called critical thickness of insulation. I would have just said a larger D coil would mean more distance for juice to flow to replace that which had been vapourized, but I am not so sure that this would be a significant problem with larger coils.

I have noticed that my flavour was much better with a 2mm coil than a 3mm coil, even after I adjusted for coil power. I need to do some basic testing for it, but my other research is keeping me busy.

Let me say a few things about stainless. No one is going to bother making "fake" stainless steel. The cost difference for a SS316 vs cheaper steel coil is totally insignificant. However, there may be machining oils present on the SS316 if its really cheap and nasty. SS doesnt need oil because it doesnt rust, but it can get on there if its from a real dodgy factory.

Stay away from 304. Only use 316. Why? Because 304 can rust quite easily, but 316 is very resistant to corrosion provided it isnt under the water in a low oxygen environment. There are many grades of stainless steel, but I would advise using SS316 as it has lower nickel content than duplex and other similar nickel based "super alloys". Nickel is actually quite toxic if it is dissolving in your wick juice.

This is why, as a chemical engineer, I do not use nichrome/nickel metals for coils. Too much nickel. I think kanthal is ok but I personally prefer SS because it doesnt form thick oxide layers.
Im still not sure about titanium!! I think titanium oxide has some bad catalytic activity on coils and it ruins the flavour. I have never made a Ti coil that was nice, but it was easy with SS and kanthal.

 

[MacTechVpr]

[Qpictures of both a hot and cool coil....After I get caught up,which never happens,I'll experiment so more on coils.[/QUOTE]

Excellent!

There's a video showing a tension contact wind using a coil gizmo.Its the only type I've seen where one can apply tension and not have to unwind first or last wind.

Urge you to try a hand wind alongside on a screwdriver or pin vise. There are advantages to both. I've used jigs for thick wire but the control off the spool by hand is outstanding. The important part is to get to sticky and oxidation asap. Then you'll find a multitude of applications for strain. Find that point they don't unwind and never look back.

I'll take a few pictures of both a hot and cool coil.

With a contact coil where winds touch together do they fuse during oxidation?[/QUOTE]

Depends. Not technically. Fused metals are those that have literally bonded at the atomic level. The discussion on that is beyond the scope I talk about here. I've perhaps used the words in a generic sense to mean stuck together. Likewise adhesion which has a specific meaning in mechanics. The word is grossly misused to refer to Claptons and other fused multi-wire.

Back to the stainless steel,I've been looking at possible next RDA tanks and some list grade of stainless used.Theres several food grades of SS,it's all austenic and weakly magnetic.I think it was grades 304,316,and there are a few more.

To address the concern we discussed earlier…

"With its higher nickel composition range, 316 is considered the "most nonmagnetic" stainless steel. However, an item of 316 stainless steel which has significant welding or machining [my emphasis] may be sufficiently magnetic to produce a noticeable attraction when brought near a magnet."
How Nonmagnetic are 304 and 316 Stainless Steels? - Meyer Tool & Mfg.

I'm leaning towards RDA dripper tanks,Avocado,Therom and I do like jaybo designs,looks,and most of all price.The kayfun V5 clone I'll have to try.Ill just be sure to get one from the better clone companies that list materials used.

Too many vapes, too little time Rob. Take a look at the Limitless RDA (like avocado). Check reviews and youtube re Theorem.

Good luck.

 

[Templar1191]

Whats the problem with weakly magnetic coils? As they heat up, they will lose their magnetic properties permanently. High temps ruin magnets, especially the temps experienced in dry firing. Even if the coil has been heavily machined before being wound and is magnetic.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Whats the problem with weakly magnetic coils? As they heat up, they will lose their magnetic properties permanently. High temps ruin magnets, especially the temps experienced in dry firing. Even if the coil has been heavily machined before being wound and is magnetic.

Welcome T. No problem. Good point.

Just picked up on your post. Long day. And I'm in a workshop tomorrow. Hopefully supe may ring in on some of your questions.

Good luck.

 

[Templar1191]

What was the concern re magnetism?

 

[MacTechVpr]

What was the concern re magnetism?

Think Rob's concern was that the material may not have been authentic s.s. Possible. We really don't know the purity or chemistry of some imported goods. Has happened. Good night.

Good luck.

 

[Templar1191]

I wouldnt buy big rolls of ss316 from china unless the company was fully legit. A company could palm off 304 as 316. But all stainless steels will be ok in coils. Its easy to look at wire and see if its stainless.

Stick with temco. Re tanks from china, i highly doubt theyd use carbon steel in coils. Even if they did, you would notice it rusting immediately. Not that carbon steel would hurt you.

Goods from china have some main hazards. Chemical and solvent residues are the main concerns and you can detect most organic residues by smell. Oil, just dry fire it without cotton and see if it smokes. If it smells like glue dont use it and buy someplace else next time.

Authentic or austentic??? Ferritic or austentic stainless
Maybe he is thinking the stainless called austentic isnt authentic. Its just a different type

 

[muzichead]

What was the concern re magnetism?

It wasn't the coils he was worried about magnetism... It was the 454 Bigblock RDA he picked up from 101Vape. He was concerned as to what it was made of. He didn't think they were actually stainless.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Nah @Templar1191, I think Rob has a tech elec background and he's coming along on getting to a coherent coil using strain. That's the topic here. My way of getting folks to test the principle…does a coil in intimate strained contact gain efficiency? I never go into much detail with my own observations as to how this aids oxidation. Always left it in the hands of the user to explore the permutations. Why? Simply too many variables (device, power, wind accuracy, defects, etc.) to write a thesis on it. Didn't introduce tension winding for commercial use on ECF but to help folks simply get to a dependable wind consistently T. Really, thx for stopping in. You too Boden, Muz. All of you. We need new vapers to be thinking about the science and instances where it's at least part of unravelling the puzzle of a great vape.

As for the more tech aspects, would love to join in with you, Boden and others with the classical knowledge on the efficiency thread to discuss in greater detail. I do enough here to distract folks as it is. But confirmations here on the fundamentals of the physics when we have them right are greatly appreciated.

Good luck.

 

[Robbert]

Here's one of my coils.Ill post more if they upload correctly from tablet.

This is off topic but one reason I stopped vaping years ago it made me ill,just like real tobacco.Achey joints,tiredness,sweating,and a few others.
I've been having great results from halo 70/30,but I'm trying BWB and back came the side effects.
BWB tobacco flavors are horrible when fresh.The fruit flavor BWB is okay but yesterday after I used it back came side effects.

 

[muzichead]

2 things... I would stop using BWB liquids if you get side effects from them and nice coil you have there. Now if you take the lower leg and pull off 1 wrap you would have an excellent coil... You can see the slightest gap in the last, (bottom), wrap and you don't want that...

 

[Robbert]

I'll let all the BWB steep for 2-3 weeks,give them another try.
Thanks for the tips.Ive noticed even with a perfect coil the pressure from screws can thwart coil especially 1st and last wind.
I'm running out of 26 gauge so soon I'll be stocking up on wire and wick materials.What are some more common gauges used for single wire coils in kanthal?I highly doubt I'll ever do any coil art work or compete in blowing clouds.Flavor and getting the subtle notes or under tones is what I like.
Do these coils have same or similar properties of springs?

One last question as I look at new RDA tank possibilities.The RDA decks is there a size that most companies use so one could perhaps mix components from other RDA tanks?
Are they referred to generic size?

 

[MacTechVpr]

The pitch angle looks a little off to me for a strain wind. Like the attack angle was off the perpendicular. Sometimes you need to induce a little neg angle to keep the wind coherent. If it's pos (leading away I believe) it may relieve the strain being applied and the coil may appear skewed (like stretching a slinky). Too much strain can induce more turn pitch depending on mandrel and wire dia. Mebe it's the pic. Dunno. But it's certainly tight.

Think it's easier to find sticky (adhesion) with a pin vise. Hate to say it but needs to be. A screwdriver if none's handy. Just to observe the turn relationship and most of all to learn to detect the transition point between forming (not enough tension) and closest proximity (no unwind).

Good job tho and the above are the fine points. To debug, reduce tension until they're not coherent and wind back until they are. Learn that point!

Enjoy the vape and good luck.

Tehnsioned Contact Micro Coil, MacTechVpr

• MacTechVpr
• Jun 25, 2015
• coil contact tensioned

p.s. This pic pretty well demonstrates the attack angle of the wire at the last clean turn (opposite the chuck).