Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

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Robbert

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    I've been doing a lot of practice,trying to wind a coil so no light passes between coils.Harder said than done.
    I watched a video showing oxidatizing a coil and I've been pulsing mine way too fast.Now that I've seen oxidizing done that will help.
    Has anyone found certain brands of 18650 to perform better than others?
    I'm using Lg H2 2500 and they seem to work okay but I go through 4 cells a day.
    Theres now a li-mn cell but I'm not up on 18650 yet.
     
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    Templar1191

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    I had another think about this. If you dry fire your coils after they have been tensioned, you will lose the tension.
    Heating a material near its softening point will relieve residual stresses. This is done during glass blowing and metal working relieve these stresses. Some glass objects will crack when they cool if not annealed properly.

    No doubt wrapping the coils tightly will make the coil heat more evenly, but I dont think its worth going overboard here. Just nice and uniform wires with a bit of tension in them, because anything too extreme will be hard to get off the die and will lose "tension" after dry fire.

    However, if you coils generally heat evenly without needing dry firing, go nuts. As much tension as possible
    I think your micro coils are good, but for a different reason... which gets into adiabatic flash evaporation and more effective vaporization of all the flavouring esters in the fluid. Basically a smaller coil heats faster... More smaller coils will work better, provided they all share the same wick reservoir of juice.

    Now, onto the talk about the spacing of each wind. The juice doesnt just absorb heat. It absorbs heat as it evaporates(this is why wet hands feel cold). If the winds are not spaced close together, they should sink further into the wick surface and thus have more wire surface in contact with the wet wick. So going by this argument that was raised a post or two above me, a coil that isnt under tension would operate better. :confused:

    I keep getting these dessert flavours from zamplebox and I reckon theyre laced with diacetyl but i cbf going on there and changing my choices. My favourite flavours right now are strawberry based... hmm they all taste like yoghurt

    This picture below me shows how air or water flows around an object in the flow stream as the speed of the fluid increases. Higher Re = faster fluid, basically. Stick your hand outside of a moving car, it feels colder because of the improved heat transfer at higher velocities in the air.

    220px-Reynolds_behaviors.png


    I still stand by my opinion that fancier coils do not always mean better flavour and longer wick life. But hey, those alien claptons look cool as hell
    If I dont get a Masters scholarship for my solar photovoltaic work I'm going to open a vape shop :evil:
     
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    Boden

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    I had another think about this. If you dry fire your coils after they have been tensioned, you will lose the tension.
    Heating a material near its softening point will relieve residual stresses. This is done during glass blowing and metal working relieve these stresses. Some glass objects will crack when they cool if not annealed properly.

    No doubt wrapping the coils tightly will make the coil heat more evenly, but I dont think its worth going overboard here. Just nice and uniform wires with a bit of tension in them, because anything too extreme will be hard to get off the die and will lose "tension" after dry fire.

    However, if you coils generally heat evenly without needing dry firing, go nuts. As much tension as possible
    I think your micro coils are good, but for a different reason... which gets into adiabatic flash evaporation and more effective vaporization of all the flavouring esters in the fluid. Basically a smaller coil heats faster... More smaller coils will work better, provided they all share the same wick reservoir of juice.

    As long as the dry fire doesn't go hotter than dull red and for a short time quite a bit of the spring tension can be preserved.

    Now, onto the talk about the spacing of each wind. The juice doesnt just absorb heat. It absorbs heat as it evaporates(this is why wet hands feel cold). If the winds are not spaced close together, they should sink further into the wick surface and thus have more wire surface in contact with the wet wick. So going by this argument that was raised a post or two above me, a coil that isnt under tension would operate better. :confused:

    A lot of factors go into how much wire/wick contact is made. Thickness of juice, wick tension, swelling of the wick, etc. Basic difference is a spaced coil looses more heat to the airstream because the sides of the wire are exposed. In a contact coil heat on the side surfaces is reabsorbed by the wire next to it.


    This picture below me shows how air or water flows around an object in the flow stream as the speed of the fluid increases. Higher Re = faster fluid, basically. Stick your hand outside of a moving car, it feels colder because of the improved heat transfer at higher velocities in the air.

    220px-Reynolds_behaviors.png


    I still stand by my opinion that fancier coils do not always mean better flavour and longer wick life. But hey, those alien claptons look cool as hell
    If I dont get a Masters scholarship for my solar photovoltaic work I'm going to open a vape shop :evil:

    You also get higher rates of evaporation at higher airspeeds. This is the key to the Radiators efficiency bump over a round coil. With less drag and a thinner boundary layer (turbulent layer at the surface) you can pull more air past the coil faster.


    image.jpeg
    image.jpeg
     
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    Boden

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    I tend to be a bit of a perfectionist and it can result in over thinking,etc...
    Leg lengths,I understand can effect ohms,but once hot legs go away does longer legs have that much effect ?

    I needing more 18650 cells,which ones are the better cells?
    Leg length doesn't really matter.

    Check out mooches blog for info on different cells. Index | E-Cigarette Forum
     

    MacTechVpr

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    I've been doing a lot of practice,trying to wind a coil so no light passes between coils.Harder said than done.
    I watched a video showing oxidatizing a coil and I've been pulsing mine way too fast.Now that I've seen oxidizing done that will help.
    Has anyone found certain brands of 18650 to perform better than others?
    I'm using Lg H2 2500 and they seem to work okay but I go through 4 cells a day.
    Theres now a li-mn cell but I'm not up on 18650 yet.

    Only four there Rob? :D

    Don't' give up. I have my days winding nothing but pretty decoration winds. Don't toss 'em. You can form them down to a slightly small screw Ø spaced wind. I use 'em for comparison vapes and the occasional juice/atty combo that only runs well that way (mostly some tab's).

    For the benefit of the gallery, some refresher notes.

    The initial intro of the micro brought about the close contact coil. Subsequently torching the coils with external compression during or after were introduced to aid in forming tighter coils. I favored the former (during the burn) on the Protank thread as this seemed to expedite tight contact with less energy and erosion of the wire surface. However, both techniques still produced very warm output. They also got hotter in operation than standard coils as they were essentially thermally shorting across each other. Torching if anything hampered significant alumina development.

    Any coil can be oxidized if properly powered. To initiate alumina development that serves to isolate electrical flow required I found that the turns must be in adhesion, as I describe, a generic term for closest proximity. The more uniform that wind and contact the more effectively and quickly that it is formed.

    Rob, if you're seeing more than minute incidental gaps there is simply not enough tension to induce strain (elongation). Tensioning off the perpendicular (and away from the wind) will actually reduce the lateral strain being applied. The wind may actually pull apart if the longitudinal strain is greater than the lateral. That would not be a tensioned microcoil.

    The downside of the jig for new users is that simply adding some pull will allow the rotation effort to simply form or bend the wire. Subsequent turns will impart a longitudinal sideways force pushing turns together. This is not elongation. The turns in operation will strive to return to the form or original shape wound (bent) with repeated thermal expansion. Such tend to separate leaving what is often an inadequately insulated close or intermittent contact short. With power and expansion it becomes more evident. To put it bluntly, for some disposed to that kind of cynicism, it's proof positive microcoils suck. But no, just the wind did.

    Learning the necessary mechanics is an individual achievement. We each have to arrive at the right balance of eye, hand and mental coordination. A bit dicier with a jig as it's quite easy to miss when we've introduced competing forming forces.

    So can't emphasize enough that winding directly off the spool is the best way to observe and consistently achieve adhesion. With the bit right on the edge of the spool serving as both a pivot and leverage point for the angle or degree of attack to the wind. Good thumb pressure on the screwdriver or pin vise with firm resistance or slight opposing pull on the spool itself with the other hand is usually enough.

    There should be no visible gaps.

    If you're having diff finding the adhesion point (and slightly beyond), drop down a gauge or two until you've achieved the body mechanics to comfortably execute a smooth flow of rotation under tension.

    Now don't any of you take this personal. We all have our days when we've got sh!!t for hands. Some of us more than others. This too shall pass.

    Good luck. :)
     

    MacTechVpr

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    As long as the dry fire doesn't go hotter than dull red and for a short time quite a bit of the spring tension can be preserved.



    A lot of factors go into how much wire/wick contact is made. Thickness of juice, wick tension, swelling of the wick, etc. Basic difference is a spaced coil looses more heat to the airstream because the sides of the wire are exposed. In a contact coil heat on the side surfaces is reabsorbed by the wire next to it.

    You also get higher rates of evaporation at higher airspeeds. This is the key to the Radiators efficiency bump over a round coil. With less drag and a thinner boundary layer (turbulent layer at the surface) you can pull more air past the coil faster.


    View attachment 592711 View attachment 592713

    Love the symmetry B. Have enough problems just tryin' to get folks to irrigate the bottom of the coil and get off the pure dissipation approach to vapor. Haven't they seen enough bottom a/f atty's yet to get the message?

    What happens when you run against the concept and lay that coil sideways 2-3mm over the a/f? Make it a grill rather than a radiator.

    Graduating airspeed with wide bore DT's is a solid trick. But more air than the wire/wick spec can handle just seems to drop temp and vape rate.

    Is it really adjacent segment reabsorption. I don't think so in an oxidized coil that's achieved temp parity as in many of the examples I've posted. It takes minutely fractional sections for most of the energy in a standard contact wind to normalize to that of a standard coil emitting most energy from its center. Oxidized tmc's don't do that. Close contact coils I'd say do see electron jumping to cooler spaces in adjacent wires and suddenly exhibit superhot segments spontaneously develop in operation. And folks then simply don't understand why their vape sucks. Million pic's of those here.

    Vaped large twisteds and smaller multi-threaded as my main vape almost 2 years as I proselytized on tmc's as the main vape solid wind. The irregularity killed me until I worked out stabilizing parallels which your radiators much resemble. I look forward to trying one as a twisted lead multiwire parallel to see how well it might be insulated.

    Good luck. :)
     
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    MacTechVpr

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    I had another think about this. If you dry fire your coils after they have been tensioned, you will lose the tension.
    Heating a material near its softening point will relieve residual stresses. This is done during glass blowing and metal working relieve these stresses. Some glass objects will crack when they cool if not annealed properly.

    As long as the dry fire doesn't go hotter than dull red and for a short time quite a bit of the spring tension can be preserved.

    You're both spot on. More energy input than used to tension the wire into shape will reverse the reduction of ductility. However, if in a strained state the wire is uniformly oxidized it will tend not to exhibit any severe overheating at any particular segment/s, i.e. at center. Consequently, during dry fire if voltage is kept low and DW is used with discretion on surface solids the strained state can be maintained for a considerable period without inducing deformation. Put another way, preserving enough strain to maintain wound shape.

    Of course, with a modicum (microdrops) of water promptly soften any significant deposits and try to delicately chip away at these with as little heat as possible. You def want to limit dry fire exposure for many reasons including the potential for further development of alumina in young coils if possible, as I understand, by not depleting near surface Al. So I agree with the notion that's not much heat is required for adhesion, as I express the term generically, or maintenance.

    I'm rather slow gentlemen so I had to do this test a ridiculous hundreds of times to appreciate this simple phenomenon related to K's oxidative properties.

    All the luck. :)
     
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    Templar1191

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    "As long as the dry fire doesn't go hotter than dull red and for a short time quite a bit of the spring tension can be preserved."

    Thats why you can anneal a steel blade at 300 or 400degC, right? A blade does not need to be emitting light to be susceptible to quench hardening or other heat treatment processes
    Once the tension is taken away, when you stop winding the coil, the coil is no longer "under tension". What makes it hold its shape are residual stresses. Once dry fired the coil crystalline structure will resolve to one that is energetically favourable to hold that coil shape.

    The only reason the coil doesnt become playdough after dry firing is that it takes enegy to deform the new crystal structure.

    Anyway post away. Theres a nice wall in my lab, im going to see if I can have a debate with it.
     
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    Boden

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    Love the symmetry B. Have enough problems just tryin' to get folks to irrigate the bottom of the coil and get off the pure dissipation approach to vapor. Haven't they seen enough bottom a/f atty's yet to get the message?

    What happens when you run against the concept and lay that coil sideways 2-3mm over the a/f? Make it a grill rather than a radiator.

    Set it sideways? The side opposate the incoming airflow would overheat as there would be almost no airflow cooling.


    Is it really adjacent segment reabsorption. I don't think so in an oxidized coil that's achieved temp parity as in many of the examples I've posted. It takes minutely fractional sections for most of the energy in a standard contact wind to normalize to that of a standard coil emitting most energy from its center. Oxidized tmc's don't do that. Close contact coils I'd say do see electron jumping to cooler spaces in adjacent wires and suddenly exhibit superhot segments spontaneously develop in operation. And folks then simply don't understand why their vape sucks. Million pic's of those here.

    If heat can pass out of a oxidized wire it can go in.

    You can think of heat this way. It wants to move from the hottest area to the coolest area to establish a thermal equilibrium. The path it takes is dependent on thermal conductivity. It would much rather move to other metal first then juice. Air is not very thermally conductive so it gets last place in this system. ;)

    Problem is, while heat is being added to the coil, the center which has the most insulation around it, gets hotter than the rest of the wire. This is why the outside wraps will not stay hot, they only have insulation on one side.

    A basic thermal equilibrium will occur quite quickly once heat input is stopped.

    The equation is different for a coil being dry fired. Then you have heat inside the coil being emitted and reabsorbed by the inside surfaces.

    Vaped large twisteds and smaller multi-threaded as my main vape almost 2 years as I proselytized on tmc's as the main vape solid wind. The irregularity killed me until I worked out stabilizing parallels which your radiators much resemble. I look forward to trying one as a twisted lead multiwire parallel to see how well it might be insulated.

    Good luck. :)

    I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. :)
     
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    MacTechVpr

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    I tend to be a bit of a perfectionist and it can result in over thinking,etc...
    Leg lengths,I understand can effect ohms,but once hot legs go away does longer legs have that much effect ?

    I needing more 18650 cells,which ones are the better cells?

    Yeah rumination can getcha. LOL :D

    Good thing where batt's are concerned tho. And @Mooch is a good source on that kind of specialization of late with a formidable collection of test results on late model cells…

    Links to All My Tests and My Recommended Batteries

    Good luck. :)

    p.s. Been my experience leads seldom go hot on a t.m.c. as I attested to here…Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step. | Page 72 | E-Cigarette Forum. Also that lead length is not nearly as vital to that as I once thought. But pos lead symmetry can be more significant to maintaining balanced output in dual-coil sets.
     
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    Boden

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    Quick question... Do you ever play around with the coil thing on steam engine looking for a particular heat flux? I don't know if higher or lower is better?
    No, steam engine does not calculate heat flux correctly. It can be used as a relative starting point though if you are using a unregulated power supply (That's what it was designed for).

    If you are using a regulated power supply just build a coil that fits the atty.

    There is no universal better. Have fun finding your better :D
     
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    MacTechVpr

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    Steam engine does not calculate heat flux correctly. It can be used as a relative starting point though if you are using a unregulated power supply (That's what it was designed for).

    Seen a number of similar conclusions (including my own sometime back) but I've yet to encounter a good write up of the explanation. Any good disc on this you've seen, links welcome.

    If you are using a regulated power supply just build a coil that fits the atty.

    Have to agree, everything works. But I don't think that's at the heart of the question. So I suggest a criteria rather than a parameter as the cross-roads…repeatability. I agree there are peculiarities about steam-engine. But as for facilitating discovery and potentials of for a better vape its product is not too shabby even if the results are not uniformly accurate across wire types and winds. Better than the wet thumb in the wind most new vapers have for taste and performance perception. Or the amorphous broken line of resistance we count on to steer by on this cliff road. Anyway, I like the scenery. Especially when it leads to foggy.

    There is no universal better. Have fun finding your better :D

    For any of us. But we all know what we like.

    Good luck. :)
     
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    MacTechVpr

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    Set it sideways? The side opposate the incoming airflow would overheat as there would be almost no airflow cooling.




    If heat can pass out of a oxidized wire it can go in.

    You can think of heat this way. It wants to move from the hottest area to the coolest area to establish a thermal equilibrium. The path it takes is dependent on thermal conductivity. It would much rather move to other metal first then juice. Air is not very thermally conductive so it gets last place in this system. ;)

    Problem is, while heat is being added to the coil, the center which has the most insulation around it, gets hotter than the rest of the wire. This is why the outside wraps will not stay hot, they only have insulation on one side.

    A basic thermal equilibrium will occur quite quickly once heat input is stopped.

    The equation is different for a coil being dry fired. Then you have heat inside the coil being emitted and reabsorbed by the inside surfaces.



    I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. :)

    Agree with most of what you say. But I think we are talking about two different things. I'm referring to the wind's central elements or turns as opposed to wire mass center. Also aren't we mixing up thermal radiation and electrical conductivity? I'm referring to alumina's resistivity as a barrier to electron migration to adjacent wire which yes does transfer heat to my understanding until equilibrium is achieved. Except it isn't, is it? Collision of opposing flows must drive heat (resistance) up. And as more power is applied (in time) it continues. Well that may be welcome if that is the objective. Not saying it's wrong if that's the design purpose.

    To make a point here. The purpose of a t.mc. is to stabilize power delivery rapidly to uniform equilibrium so that the design (capacity) serves as an effective and adequate limit to temp (for a given time or power). In complex random non-insulated wind designs that goal is unpredictable.

    So we are talking about two distinct applications I think. But I agree I may like your coil in that it prolly exhibits more stability than most of the multi-wire I've played with.

    Good luck. :)
     

    Boden

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    Agree with most of what you say. But I think we are talking about two different things. I'm referring to the wind's central elements or turns as opposed to wire mass center. Also aren't we mixing up thermal radiation and electrical conductivity?
    With a wet wick its thermal conduction.

    I was referring to the winds in the middle of the coil have more thermal insulation than the winds on the ends. the wires next to them act as thermal insulation (sort of). Plus the outside winds loose heat to the posts. This may require a graphic...

    Idea! Imagine a line of seven penguins all touching. The Penguins at the end of the line have the most surface area exposed to the cold wind. Those poor guys are loosing body heat faster than all the other penguins and have the lowest body temp. The penguin next to the outside penguin is having heat drawn out of him to warm up the end penguin. The third penguin in from the end is having some heat drawn out toward the end but not as much. The middle penguin is loosing the least amount of heat to the other penguins and has the highest body temp.


    I'm referring to alumina's resistivity as a barrier to electron migration to adjacent wire which yes does transfer heat to my understanding until equilibrium is achieved. Except it isn't, is it?

    True Equilibrium is achieved after the power is off and everything is the same temperature. Until then the system is constantly trying to even everything out. In the time scale of a puff this won't be achieved.

    Collision of opposing flows must drive heat (resistance) up. And as more power is applied (in time) it continues. Well that may be welcome if that is the objective. Not saying it's wrong if that's the design purpose.

    Opposing flows? Need clarification please.

    Remember the electrons are moving at close to the speed of light (C). At this speed and scale (really^10^10^10 small) the concept of a collision between electrons does not really exist. An electron is ~1800 times smaller than a proton.

    To make a point here. The purpose of a t.mc. is to stabilize power delivery rapidly to uniform equilibrium so that the design (capacity) serves as an effective and adequate limit to temp (for a given time or power). In complex random non-insulated wind designs that goal is unpredictable.

    Because of variations in the metal itself there will always be some variations in how the wire heats up. I do agree that Kanthal is the most predictable wire we can use.

    It's almost like it was designed to be used as a heating element in conditions similar to ours... ;)

    So we are talking about two distinct applications I think. But I agree I may like your coil in that it prolly exhibits more stability than most of the multi-wire I've played with.

    Good luck. :)

    We are talking about the same thing :)
     
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    SLM

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    Not my day.A bottle of liquid leaked as it was in mail and I'll have to send limitless back because of a defect.
    This one has a flaw the grub screw x is deformed so it will not come out.
    I may make a tool at work tomorrow or just send it back.
    And the screws on the Limitless are soft in my experience. I need to find out what thread they are and order some. Soon, LOL
     
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