Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

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MacTechVpr

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Remember the electrons are moving at close to the speed of light (C). At this speed and scale (really^10^10^10 small) the concept of a collision between electrons does not really exist. An electron is ~1800 times smaller than a proton.

Yes, I'm aware there are no actual collisions as such. Rather as I understand it, it is the friction (or heat) created by the mag field proximity that we refer to as resistance. That such interaction whether within current flow or with enough energy to break wire surface to adjoining streams is the basis for inc temp (res). I misspoke about opposing currents referring to this. The effect of trying to write tired. As I am now but wanted to start an answer at least. Thx B for yours and the help tightening up the nomenclature and expressions.

Good luck. :)
 
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MacTechVpr

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slm said:
And the screws on the Limitless are soft in my experience. I need to find out what thread they are and order some. Soon, LOL

Feel ya. Seems to be my luck that any atty with grubs is bound to have a bad one. And, of course, a size I don't have.

201607151808011421.jpg <----- All makers should do this!

Good luck. :)
 

SLM

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Feel ya. Seems to be my luck that any atty with grubs is bound to have a bad one. And, of course, a size I don't have.

View attachment 593549 <----- All makers should do this!

Good luck. :)
That looks like a good idea! I was thinking about retapping my Limitless to something like 4-40 that I have a bunch of and are easily obtainable.
 

HootOwl

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To any and all of you who have been successfully winding 'tensioned' coils:
1. What guage&type of wire is working, and about how much pressure or force are you able to exert on it?
2. All this talk of 'adhesion'.... when you go to slide the new coil off mandrel, does it or can it just slide off pretty easy if you really reached that point?
3. Do the winds hold themselves together REALLY well before pulsing it? Say, if you grab a leg and lightly press or something-can u see tiny space between wraps or is it almost like 'welded' together?
4. Maybe this should have been no1.... what are yall using? Something like superxdrifter's artistic gizmo thing?
If there are any other good videos on the latest, greatest, or best methods I'd love to see them!!

Thanks everyone!
 
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Moxienator

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To any and all of you who have been successfully winding 'tensioned' coils:
1. What guage&type of wire is working, and about how much pressure or force are you able to exert on it?
2. All this talk of 'adhesion'.... when you go to slide the new coil off mandrel, does it or can it just slide off pretty easy if you really reached that point?
3. Do the winds hold themselves together REALLY well before pulsing it? Say, if you grab a leg and lightly press or something-can u see tiny space between wraps or is it almost like 'welded' together?
4. Maybe this should have been no1.... what are yall using? Something like superxdrifter's artistic gizmo thing?
If there are any other good videos on the latest, greatest, or best methods I'd love to see them!!

Thanks everyone!

1. 28 or 29g Manual A1 - strong downward pull on the wire spool as I wrap.
2. It slides off with maybe a light nudge or two.
3. Winds seem to stay together until messed with. I.e. - touching them like at all. They are very springy, so for the most part, a light tap will be ok. Just do not apply pressure or torque.
4/1. "Artistic" wire gizmo with a homebrew 5/64" mandrel/arm. I just spin up like 20 coils at a time.


Fortune favors the Bottom Feeders.
 

HootOwl

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I love the idea of the super efficient, perfectly wound, evenly heating TMC. I still have some catching up to do on this thread and at my workbench practicing........ but can anyone give me a quick simple answer on : How do you know you got it??

I know ive made quite a lot of nice, tight, and pretty coils that vape great. Is there a good chance in y'alls opinion that a fella like me might never even notice a difference?

Either way, vaping is delicious and awesome, and my inner nerd/tinkerer/scientist/perfectionist really loves all the trial and error and experimentation of it all. Thanks again for anything you want to throw at me!!
 
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HootOwl

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Ive read a bit of MacTechVpr's talk of adhesion- and I think that is what has been making me think I might need tons of pressure and how if I dont 'see and feel' adhesion happening that im nowhere near getting it.

The answer to my #3 helps me in thinking that I may be indeed closer than I might have thought. Breaking wires and bending brackets and rods pulling like a madman might not be needed then...?.....wwwhhheeeww thats a relief;)
 
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MacTechVpr

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Ive read a bit of MacTechVpr's talk of adhesion- and I think that is what has been making me think I might need tons of pressure and how if I dont 'see and feel' adhesion happening that im nowhere near getting it.

The answer to my #3 helps me in thinking that I may be indeed closer than I might have thought. Breaking wires and bending brackets and rods pulling like a madman might not be needed then...?.....wwwhhheeeww thats a relief;)

Hoot, to save ya some time thought I'd drop in. Start with a screwdriver or pin vise. It'll be easier to see. Wind just tight enough to add some turns. You'll see them loosely line up and maybe even squeeze together. If you release the tension, they'll likely separate at this point. Keep adding turns slightly increasing pull. Try to detect the point that they stop separating. If you take it off the bit and they're slightly separating (you may need magnification) you fell short of the mark. It's just a bit beyond the point that they stop trying to return to the just bent state to pulling towards each other. That is, enough tension to cause the wire to begin to stretch.

You're right. We're not trying to tension it so much we've got a lighter gauge. Just enough that it can't get any tighter and starts to elongate. That's as close as nature will allow. When you pulse at this level of strain oxidation happens quickly often spontaneously from the first pulse (mind you I'm at sea level with plenty of O2). But that's the objective.

When you've hit the mark you likely will not need to apply any compression with a tweezer. Perhaps very slight pressure to suppress small micro-gaps or dark spots and only with a ceramic tweezers very softly during the short low-voltage burns while you're oxidizing. Don't immediately take winds to red-orange-yellow transition.

Make several loose, touching and at adhesion. Prep 'em and vape 'em. You'll see it takes perhaps quite a bit longer to anneal the spacers. For reasons noted earlier with the t.m.c. the tight contact and resulting oxidation will improve the vaporization rate. You will get a cooler denser vape result at the same power as spaced or tight contact. If this turns out too cool for your liking but you enjoy the richness, wind the next at a slightly lower resistance for more flavor and vapor.

When you've hit the mark you likely will not need to apply any compression with a tweezer. Perhaps very slight pressure to suppress small micro-gaps or dark spots and only with a ceramic tweezers very softly during the short low-voltage burns while you're oxidizing. Don't immediately take winds to red-orange-yellow transition. A full fire usually only as a final confirmation after you've observed a min of light oxidation (ideally) for all turns excluding end turns (we don't wan't them hot at all).


A t.m.c. tends not to fire from center out. The more uniform your wind and oxidation the more even the distribution. So they'll tend to fire more evenly, same color… and, not so high a color temperature.

The indication of this is the vapor will taste cooler and tend to drop towards the floor. Not so much merely diffuse or rise. This is due to the cooler higher density of the vapor.

But the most important indicator that you've succeded is when you've gone through a number of these and you're enjoying the same consistent vape. You've ended unpredictable changes in the vape due to coil distortion. You've even mangled your winds and see them stay coherent and vaping well.

That's it in a nutshell. Maybe after 3 years it's time I blog this. But I do enjoy exchanging with each of you.

Best of luck and a great vape! :)
 
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MacTechVpr

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Excellent. That is going to help for sure, a light bulb or two already lit up in my head thinking back to some recent attempts.

That's awesome that you enjoy exchanging ideas and info like that with us, because , personally , I certainly enjoy it and benefit from it. Thanks.

By your response I see I've helped expedite the most important discovery…our human ability to make the mental connection to the body mechanics. It's analysis and training of our responses. Like playing an instrument, we plan the attack and adjustment. Next time, we've drilled it into our senses and reactions. And we have an incredible sensitivity to minute variations of sensation to permit us to achieve it. This was really one of the most astounding observations. Just how skilled so many of you that I've worked with have been.

It's always a pleasure.

Good luck and enjoy the vape. :)
 
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Moxienator

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Hoot- I started with 29g 1.5R coils in 5/64 ID in a kayfun lite plus. When building, I always wicked it and tested each coil before putting it back together. If I did my part, that relatively small and high resistance coil would literally throw vapor in a nice even pattern. If it was sloppy, it would act like I had a weak battery. Very inconsistent vapor pattern. Much Smaller amount of thin vapor.

Once you find a target coil gauge, ID, and amount of wraps, stick with it. I don't really think that coil gauge matters, although in theory it should be easier to obtain adhesion with thinner wire as it should need less tension.

Keep trying to build that perfect target coil. As in, over and over again. Eventually it will click as long as you pay attention. I still build that same basic coil from my kayfun days even though I'm a BF dripper kinda guy now.
Once the consistency was there, I really didn't have to worry about it again.

This thread, Mack, Russ, and all the other posters got me there. You'll get there too.

@Mac - I love that this thread is still going strong. Keep up the good work brother!

Fortune favors the Bottom Feeders.
 

Boden

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Rather as I understand it, it is the friction (or heat) created by the mag field proximity that we refer to as resistance. That such interaction whether within current flow or with enough energy to break wire surface to adjoining streams is the basis for inc temp (res).

I've been trying to figure out what you are referring to in this statement. I think you may have confused Induction Heating with Joule Heating.

Joule heating is what heats up a coil.
 
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Boden

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I know I got the current and friction right. Don't ask me to explain elastic and inelastic collision. Most folk think electron flow is like auto traffic. Good luck. :)
Good thing elastic and inelastic collisions aren't really relevant.

Is a bit like auto traffic, if the cars were jumping from one valence shell to another with a little bit of kenetic energy left behind after each jump.

:D
 
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Robbert

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    What are some other applications of contact tension coils with heat?
    I'm curious if there are wicks,coil types,temps,that use liquids more efficiently.
    The liquid has to be going somewhere after it hits hot coil(s).It could evaporate before being absorbed by user but it would seem only a fraction would evaporate.
     
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    MacTechVpr

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    What are some other applications of contact tension coils with heat?
    I'm curious if there are wicks,coil types,temps,that use liquids more efficiently.
    The liquid has to be going somewhere after it hits hot coil(s).It could evaporate before being absorbed by user but it would seem only a fraction would evaporate.

    Good point Rob. Just what exactly is the vaporization zone in our coils? What part of our winds is actually doing the work? Does any liquid juice actually ever hit a hot coil or any labyrinth of wire beyond the vaporization boundary?

    Trying to understand these two issues is what prompted me some years ago to observe the evolution of vaping and particularly the advent of the contact coil as adapted by @superXdrifter.

    Introducing tension and strain as the means to harness or stabilize the power of winds has been the goal. But the t.m.c. offers the greatest avenue to accomplish this through the limiting of thermal losses and the optimization of the vaporization zone.

    Using a t.m.c. can make the best of the wicking ability of any media but anything that flows better is going to deliver more vapor. A stable coil can induce more fluid convection provided efficient wick media. Material with tighter consistent linear fiber structure will exhibit more effective capillary action. That is, it will move fluid better than materials that merely soak thoroughly. A good wick media should provide both good permeability and conductivity of a liquid.

    Organics are good on both counts including some rayon. However, getting the right density of the material in a loose state and contact compression in the coil to match its heating potential can be more of an art than a skill. Synthetics high-temp silica and ceramic (braided Ekowool, Nextel silica and ceramic) take a lot of the guesswork out of getting the material density right but require knowledge as to what wire diameters are needed to attain their best performance. Also the down side of synthetics… they seriously limit the Ø we can use to design for temp or performance of our mods.

    Getting the right balance of wire, wick and flow is key to optimum vaporization. There shouldn't be a fraction as you suggest. Just adequate for the job. If you're leaving some behind, you're cookin' it. But that's a lead-in to a far bigger convo. One maintained here on ECF for years.

    Good luck. :)
     
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    MacTechVpr

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    Mac,
    I didn't realize it until just recently but I was jumping threads.
    Ind where it was mentioned.

    This was a good spot for your question. Gave me the opportunity to get to an issue that needs discussin'. Hopin' somebody will comment on just where vaporization actually occurs.

    I think you mentioned a wind you were going to do soon,but I can't find where it was mentioned.

    Trying to organize a few posts on two specific types of winds I introduced earlier in this thread that benefit greatly from tension winding. Hopefully to get some examples done by folks I work with hands on. That'll give me the chance for a fuller explanation and more pics of the physical mechanics, tools and approaches to using them. One particular coil is the twisted lead parallel which has become my personal favorite (pictured below). It's ideally suited for the slew of 2-post tanks and drippers that have come on the scene this year.

    Now I'm moving on to things dear to my heart but I'll be on the Protank thread if there's a renewed interest in the basics.

    Good luck. )

     
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    Robbert

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    I found a table with boiling points of vg but as water is added it greatly effects tempatures at which it boils.

    I found a nice wind for my Sigelei with 454.Its a 1.8ohm single with 29 gauge wire and warmed it up almost satisfactory.I'd like to be able to adjust tempature by changing wattage setting on Sigelei but this coil is very close to what I want.
    I'll give it a few days.Im finding coils seem to get better the next day especially the pre made type.
     
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