The end of microcoils?

[FlamingoTutu]

Okay, so tired my eyeballs are starting to roll up into my head but I hope I wrote a coherent note to Dr. F asking if he could swing by and answer some questions about what he said. Not sure if I'm the first or the 180th to ask him. Fingers crossed he'll come in and clear up some of the confusion. See you guys tomorrow. Heck of a thread.

 

[Katya]

So either you believe this was a made up study done by Dr F, or you haven't found (or looked) for any data related to a study done, or you don't have the patience to wait until data is released to have an intelligent conversation.

Jazz--I think you misunderstood--what study--there is no study!!!! Is there?????

That's the problem--please, please read the thread... We looked! We want a study! But ATM we just have doctor's orders.

 

[Katya]

Okay, so tired my eyeballs are starting to roll up into my head but I hope I wrote a coherent note to Dr. F asking if he could swing by and answer some questions about what he said. Not sure if I'm the first or the 180th to ask him. Fingers crossed he'll come in and clear up some of the confusion. See you guys tomorrow. Heck of a thread.

"Bout time, Flamingo!

What took you so long!

 

[nebulis]

I can only recommend and not dictate what anyone should do. If someone wants to dry burn the coils (temps go to extremely high levels with just dry burns), he is free to do it. Studies are showing metals being present in the vapor. So, they must come from somewhere. Do not forget that you directly inhaling just above the wire. Anyway, when we make a study we will respond with evidence. In the mean time, my recommendation is to NOT dry burn the coils. But if anyone wants to, i am not going to punish him obviously ... When we have more scientific evidence, then we can discuss. But right now, i only recommend using common sense for someone who wants to be on the safe side (as much as he can)...

Source: Comments to this video

 

[dangkhoa02106]

too much argument here but at least, could somebody tell me what am I supposed to do?
The old way (wrap the coil, press the switch, bla bla...then wick and vape) or i should never dry burn the coil.
I am so confused.

 

[tchavei]

Refering to Titanium:

Has it been studied for inhalation? I don't know. Applying something to the skin, or eating it, is very different from inhaling. Diacetyl is harmless when ingested.

Titanium dioxide is present EVERYWHERE. It would be close minded to think you didn't inhale some of it. When you wash your newborn's clothes with hypoallergenic soap, you're in fact spreading TiO2 over it (Its used in white soap). When you dress your newborn, how many TiO2 particles end up in the air and how many are inhaled by the baby?

Of course the same applies to grade 1 titanium.

Yes but as far as I know, nickel oxide is far more nasty than titanium dioxide. I choose Ti any day.

Titanium Scares me.

For No Other Reason then the Swing Arm on a Bike I was riding Broke. And it was Made from 6AL4V.

But that is Another Story.

Being scared of the unknown is normal. Do you research and make your own conclusions.

Hi Katya !
I realize that I've linked you to a cosmetics website, but I think the studies mentioned and cited in the article are worth looking at. One of the studies mentioned ( Lee, Trochimowicz & Reinhardt, "Pulmonary Response of Rats Exposed to Titanium Dioxide by Inhalation for Two Years" (1985)) involved "rats chronically exposed to excessive dust loading". In contrast to the results shown in rats, the study by Warwhit (2004) involving mice and dogs showed no tumor expression (hence my joke better to be a mouse!). Reading further, disease was noted in some who handled TD on an industrial level. But that begs the question, are vapers anywhere near the equivalent to an 'industrial level' of exposure? What seems important in the long run is the particle size, then a safe level of exposure can be guestimated.

Let me clarify this: The disease that was noted, was in a patient working for 13 years in a TiO2 packing plant... HOWEVER, if you read the patients clinical background (yes, I did), you will find something curious... he was also a daily 2 pack smoker for 40 years. That CERTAINLY had nothing to do with his lung cancer...

Please remember that these "Scientific Studies" are just like forums. You need to learn to separate the dirt from the gold. Just because the people signing these studies have a Phd or have been made by a pre-phd, doesn't make them right. My research field is Artificial Intelligence (nothing to do with metallurgy or chemistry) and you wouldn't believe the amount of crap I read every day.

Unless it's a article reviewed by peers, I take them as "fairly backed up opinions" rather than "truth".

My two cents

Tony

PS: Even some "reviewed by pairs" articles have been proved wrong later and were only "approved" because the author had a well respected background in the field and nobody "dared" defying the garbage he was publishing.

PS2: A few years ago, I trashed an article in a "blind review" and guess what... it was written by my superior (uppsssss). After finding out, I spoke to him and he replied: "Well, I was wondering when finally someone would find the flaws in my theory. Glad it was you, Tony"

 

[SissySpike]

Hmmm. Nobody tells me anything these days. Guess I just read a bunch of old threads when I started making coils.

I understand you frustrations

I just made one like this for a PT2 without torching or compressing and can't say it seemed any different from a compressed microcoil when I used it. My eyes aren't good enough to try adjusting the spacing on a coil that small, but I dry burned it and it seemed to heat up evenly.



How does that stroking thing work? Sounds a bit like Voodoo. Do I need to chant anything while I do it?

And thanks for the info update on torching.

I understand you frustrations

Magnifying glass

Scoff if you will I picked the trick up from youtube it works

 

[TheBloke]

Refering to Titanium:

Awesome stuff Tony, +1 to all

PS2: A few years ago, I trashed an article in a "blind review" and guess what... it was written by my superior (uppsssss). After finding out, I spoke to him and he replied: "Well, I was wondering when finally someone would find the flaws in my theory. Glad it was you, Tony"

Haha, glad it worked out - he was obviously a decent guy!

What is your field?

 

[peraspera]

My understanding of Ni200 was that in and of itself it's pretty unsafe? I mean it changes its nature ('fractures' or something?) quite significantly at 600°F. So one TC mistake and the wire may be of a completely different nature.

According to this Ulbrich Ni200 datasheet it is stable up to 600° and it takes extended exposure at the 800°F–1200F range for it to lose ductility and precipitate carbon.

For what it is worth, I cleaned some Ni200 well with alcohol and torched the bejeebers out it. The surface changed from relatively shiny to matte. However, there was absolutely no visible residue when I wiped the wire very, very hard with a white paper towel dampened with alcohol—nothing there that one could inhale.

Ni200 has been used for a long time in the food processing industry. It is pretty decent as far as chemical resistance goes so one would expect, as is, it would be reasonably resistant to reacting badly to ingredients in our juices. I don't have a clue if what made the surface matte would reduce the Ni200's chemical resistance.

 

[tchavei]

Awesome stuff Tony, +1 to all



Haha, glad it worked out - he was obviously a decent guy!

What is your field?

Generally AI with more incidence on partially observed hidden markov models (pohmm) applied on a 3D environment with continuous data (instead of discrete).

Cool for insiders, boring for everyone else lol.

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[TheBloke]

OK thanks @peraspera .

I only read one data sheet, and I misspoke above when I used the word "fractured". The word I meant was "graphitization". Here's the full quote:

However, Nickel 200 is normally limited to service at temperatures below 600°F (315°C). At higher temperatures Nickel 200 products can suffer from graphitization which can result in severely compromised properties. For service above 600°F (315°C), Nickel 201 is preferred.

But based on your further info, I suppose "above 600°" means more like 800-1200 for sustained periods?

 

[TheBloke]

Generally AI with more incidence on partially observed hidden markov models (pohmm) applied on a 3D environment with continuous data (instead of discrete).

Ah yeah OK. I prefer discrete with fully observed markov myself, but yours is fine too.

 

[tchavei]

Ah yeah OK. I prefer discrete with fully observed markov myself, but yours is fine too.

Lol, that's funny

That's a classbook Markov chain. I like them better too but my mentor got this weird idea I had to come up with something new and brain cracking or it wouldn't be fun (for him at least) lol

Regards
Tony

Sent from my keyboard through my phone or something like that.

 

[beckdg]

I love this thread.

It's full of geek I can sit back and watch.

Tapatyped

 

[Sgt.Rock]

i know this. This was only when I first started using Nichrome wire, which gives at a lower temperature, I thought I could just dryburn the chromium wire like I did my kanthal (as many people recommend just pulse it til it glows evenly), and while pulsing it, it started to melt. I also did dryburns (back when I used to) on my vaporshark rdna40, which has shortcircuit protection and just cuts off power if anything bad happens.

from experience and safety practices, I've learned you cant 'dryburn' the eliquid
/charred gunk off nichrome coils as you can in kanthal coils. In my experience dryburning seems bad because if it melted my nichrome....

I'd have to speculate (since I wasn't there) that your Nichrome wire had a nick in it and the resulting hot spot is what failed and not the entire wire. The reason I say that is that I have been using Nichrome 80 for a while now and it dry burns just fine. I've literally dry burned hundreds of coils made of 24 and twisted 26 ga that measured between .3 and .8 ohms and I've never had one instance of what you describe happening to me.

 

[MacTechVpr]

The "glow" you should be looking for is the first visibly detectable shade of red. Not orange or yellow or god-forbid white - just barely red. Anything else is way too hot.

The higher the temperature (in the presence of oxygen), the higher the rate of oxide (scale) formation. Migration of the alloying elements that want to form oxides to the surface will also be highest at the higher temperatures. If the coil is slow cooled, it is more likely that the oxide will stay bonded to the surface without spalling off. Dunking a hot coil in water shocks the coil, and the oxide spalls off, mostly due to differences in thermal expansion. Hope this helps.

Precisely, and why Dr. Farsalinos advice regarding electrical annealing or pulsing of Kanthal, our most commonly used wire media, is perplexing (fire once?). The oxidation layer (A2O3, alumina, a ceramic) we create with coils made from it [Kanthal] insulates the base material from the application product. Almost twice as resistant to surface erosion as the base metal/s, alumina is non-conductive and thermally conductive (ideal for a heating element). Provided that such an insulation layer may be properly introduced and maintained by electrical firing at relatively low power levels makes it an optimal wire media for highly efficient element design based on the microcoil. Particularly for new users with a very modest appreciation of technical requirements for alternatives. This last has helped catapult vaping into the stratosphere. It's time though that beginners start to gain the expertise to make best use of this material. The proposition never dry fire essentially precludes Kanthal essentially dismissing it's most important attributes.

BTW M, it's those differences in thermal expansion that I understand may introduce weaknesses, distortions and outright fissures in Kanthal's surface when the wire is torched. This presents for unstable asymmetrical thermal result from the wire which itself may exacerbate the weaknesses created (notably accelerated warping, cracking). Why I do agree with Dr. Farsalinos on foregoing external thermal torch annealing (of Kanthal).

But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Good luck all.

 

[cool52]

From You Tube:


"
Werner Zöchling

Your statements at RY4-Radio on 22.5. about avoidng dryburn of coils because it is destroying metal structure caused a lot of irritation in the vapers community because it is a common technique to correct microcoils, correct hotspot and clean coils. - How can that be - when we use heating wires which are specified NOT to change their properties when they are glowing. They stand temperatures over 1000 degrees. See e. g. http://www2.kanthal.com/sandvik/097...1-A-2-3 appliance handbook US.pdf?OpenElement I am just an interested vaper and no metal expert but I never heard of "metal molecules" that break off. That heat might change the crystal structure (atoms) I can believe. But that there is breaking of the structure and emission of parts I cannot believe at this temperatures where ecerything is solid. Can you quote a reliable source for that effects? That would help us all to get a solid viewpoint on that problem.


Konstantinos Farsalinos

+Werner Zöchling If metal molecules do not break off, where do the metals emitted to the vapor come from?? Stainless steel can withstand >1000oC, but when you weld two stainless steel pieces you produce chromium VI, which is toxic. Where does this come from? From weakening of the chromium-iron bonds in stainles steel of course...


Werner Zöchling

+Konstantinos Farsalinos I do not know it, because I am no metal expert. Therefore I asked for scientific arguments. -You do not answer the question about effects of dryburning kanthal - we do not weld here and everythings stays solid and nothing gets melted and there are no temperatures > 1000°C


Konstantinos Farsalinos

+Werner Zöchling I can only recommend and not dictate what anyone should do. If someone wants to dry burn the coils (temps go to extremely high levels with just dry burns), he is free to do it. Studies are showing metals being present in the vapor. So, they must come from somewhere. Do not forget that you directly inhaling just above the wire. Anyway, when we make a study we will respond with evidence. In the mean time, my recommendation is to NOT dry burn the coils. But if anyone wants to, i am not going to punish him obviously


Konstantinos Farsalinos

+Werner Zöchling I also suggest to try to use common sense. Those heating wires where never made or tested so that you will have an e-cig liquid directly in contact with the coil and you inhale directly what is coming from the heating coil. What i suggest is to manipulate and stress the materials as little as possible. You do not need any scientific evidence for that, this is common sense When we have more scientific evidence, then we can discuss. But right now, i only recommend using common sense for someone who wants to be on the safe side (as much as he can)...


Werner Zöchling

+Konstantinos Farsalinos I agree that scientific evidence would be necessary although common sense is a good thing;-) Thanks for your answer.

 

[TheBloke]

Lol, that's funny

That's a classbook Markov chain. I like them better too but my mentor got this weird idea I had to come up with something new and brain cracking or it wouldn't be fun (for him at least) lol

Wow I got lucky! (I was joking, I have no idea about anything you said I did look at Markov chains once, but not for very long )

 

[Robert Cromwell]

I just use magnesium wire for coils. You only dry burn them once.

 

[Bimini Twist]

Actually, a spectrometer is very useful. Kanthal is designed to be protected by a continuous layer of aluminum oxide. If you oxidize Kanthal too much (or too many times), you can deplete the aluminum in the near surface region of the wire. Then the chromium in the alloy will preferentially migrate to the surface to oxidize, along with the iron. This new scale is, according to my quick first look at the technical literature, less adherent to the base metal and can spall off. Presumably then it could be inhaled. It would be nice to know where this occurs in the life of a coil for different styles of cleaning - dry burn vs not. It's not just about fresh coils, but how they age.

Well that just made more sense to me than anything else I've read so far in this thread. Reckon I'll be replacing some (months?) old coils in the very near future.