The end of microcoils?

[Caterpiller]

Wish I'd heard about this three weeks ago before I bought this:

Oh well.

Guess I'll stop torching.

On balance I think I will continue to oxidise my coils, while adjusting them, with a few pulse cycles.

I still feel there could be benefits to having the anealed coating on Kanthal.

The good Dr. has now said in his blog that the coil is likely to give off metals into the vapour no matter what, and in liklihood, dry heating the coil is only likely to slightly increase the volume.

So I'll not dry burn, and replace coils regularly in hope that newer coils have less degrading and therefore less emissions. Although it may turn out the fresh coils give off more metal in the early cycles - who knows.

Let's hope that the Dr. or others publish some concrete findings as soon as possible.

 

[rurwin]

Metal particles in vapour is an issue that needs to be investigated. I just wish he hadn't overstated the case.

 

[rurwin]

http://www.european-aluminium.eu/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Al-Fact-Sheet_-20110728-final.pdf

"Alzheimer’s Disease ... the current weight of evidence does not support a primary role for aluminium in causing this condition. ... The available evidence suggests that aluminium oxide and aluminium hydroxide behave as “nuisance dusts” under current controlled occupational exposure conditions. ... The weight of evidence, including considerations of bioavailability and negative results from recent guideline studies, also does not support the existence of a mutagenic or genotoxichazard in humans on exposure to aluminium, or aluminium oxide and aluminium hydroxide dusts by the oral and inhalation routes. ... Aluminium is present in the human diet. For adults, the daily intake of aluminium has been estimated at about2.5‐13.5mg and can be much higher(500mg or more) in individuals taking antacids containing aluminium hydroxide. Normal dietary levels of intake of aluminium are not associated with adverse health effects."

 

[beckdg]

*** does that have to do with dry burning of coils?


When a respected scientist makes a statement like " Do not overheat the coils. It's one of the worst things that you're doing is to burn the coil until it's getting red. Just in order to fix it, to tighten the wraps, to make them, whatever, to see if the heat transfer is homogenous between the coil wraps. It's the most disasterous things you are doing" rather emphatically the community perks up and gets ready to listen. That's what most of this thread was about, people hearing this rather alarming statement and then waiting for an explanation, and some people trying to understand where this statement could be coming from. We are not all scientists, and we are not all metallurgists, but there is a vast array of knowledge here and just like with every other aspect of vaping, we're all trying to understand.

So again, I'll say this, I respect Dr. F but this is not the first time that he has made comments that read as factual statements, but are in fact opinions.

We need a "....ing great post" button.

Tapatyped

 

[beckdg]

Food products list them just not the proportions or brands of ingredients, etc.
We are putting ejuice in our bodies and deserve to know what is in them so we can decide to vape them or not.

No they don't. They list enough to fool consumers into thinking they know what's in there.

They do not list the artificial sweeteners which technically are not flavors.

How bout them wires?

Anybody going to stop dry burning?

I'm not. To me it's a choice of 3 days per coil or likely several months.

I react to metal exposure something fierce. Can't even wear gold or silver. Had to remove my tongue piercing nearly 20 years ago because I reacted.

Not a hint from vaping yet. I'm pressing on.

Tapatyped

 

[awsum140]

I will say that inhalation of metals, even nano particles, is very different than an allergic skin reaction or even ingesting them. Different parts of our bodies absorb things using different mechanisms and can absorb smaller particles than others and absorb them more readily.

Again, food for thought and I'm still waiting for a real, scientific, study of what happens when vaping which is significantly different that other uses, even heating uses, of Kanthal, nichrome, nickel and titanium.

 

[rurwin]

Chromium is a little more scary, but if we believe our metallurgists that hexavallant chromium cannot be created at these temperatures, it is probably safe.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/338694/Chromium_toxicological_overview.pdf

Chromium III is a dietary requirement. No deaths through inhalation have been reported. Some respiratory inflammation may occur at high doses.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

I'm referring to the USC study that is being discussed in the thread you linked. Keep in mind, though, that that is not the only study that detected heavy metals in e-cig vapor. It appears to be a real phenomenon.

Another study used a very janky looking cartomizer with a nichrome wire that was soldered to a silver coated copper wire. However, they did find nickel and chromium in the vapor (which is what nichrome is composed of) which suggests that there is some leeching of metals from the wire. The levels of the metals were similar to or exceeded cigarette smoke, so we can't merely brush it off as "background noise."

Another study found that vaping caused a 2-4 fold increase of aluminum in indoor air (Kanthal has aluminum in it).

Remember that heavy metals are cumulative, so there is really no "safe limit" for these metals as it's all about chronic exposure. The less the better. I am going to keep on vaping, though.

The aluminum statement I found a little alarming. Clicking on that link, I read 2.4 fold, not 2-4 fold. Then I did a LITTLE googling to see what amount of aluminum in indoor air is normal. Didn't find a thing. So I thought about it a minute. Well, if there is none, than a 2.4 fold increase is meaningless as 0x2.4=0. I'm not trying to be coy, but I can't find any perspective on this. I would imagine that if aluminum is present in indoor air, it would vary wildly based on many factors including the building, uses of the building, geographic location of the building, etc. So a 2.4 fold increase is meaningless unless we know how much was present originally, and what a normal range would be based on the considerations I mentioned about the building and area.


I have never seen any kind of article or news item regarding aluminum in indoor air, I suppose it might be safe to assume it isn't really of particular concern. In fact, it would seem based on my rudimentary search for the issue, it is of no concern. So a doubling of no concern might still be no concern? Often, in increasing severity of deception, there are lies, damn lies, then statistics. I'm not criticizing your post, just trying to keep perspective.

 

[druckle]

For folks who are seriously concerned about nickel, chromium,aluminum atoms in their vapor maybe it's time to seriously consider titanium coils. I've found titanium to be my coil material of choice because of ease of creating a coil, stability, flavor, lifetime and compatibility with temperature control technology etc. If one adds to that the fact that titanium is among the least bioactive elements and has a natural protective oxide surface we might just have a winner.

 

[beckdg]

I will say that inhalation of metals, even nano particles, is very different than an allergic skin reaction or even ingesting them. Different parts of our bodies absorb things using different mechanisms and can absorb smaller particles than others and absorb them more readily.

Again, food for thought and I'm still waiting for a real, scientific, study of what happens when vaping which is significantly different that other uses, even heating uses, of Kanthal, nichrome, nickel and titanium.

Vapor passes over the tongue.
My lungs have shown massive improvement as has my throat and mouth.

The way I react violently, by now my whole throat would have closed and my tongue would have swelled up, turned white and filled my whole mouth if there was an issue worth giving up what I'm doing.

I don't even want to imagine what lung exposure would have created.

I'm very aware of reactions and allergies. I spent the first decade of my life and several times since on deaths door due to allergies and reactions.

I'm comfy, content and happy with my current routine. I will continue until I see something worth looking into. Likely afterwards as well.

This... Thus far... hasn't shown anything but the doctors opinion. If there's anything my career nurse mother ever instilled in me, it's that all doctors opinions need a second and a third to BEGIN the validation process.

Tapatyped

 

[Alien Traveler]

For folks who are seriously concerned about nickel, chromium,aluminum atoms in their vapor maybe it's time to seriously consider titanium coils. I've found titanium to be my coil material of choice because of ease of creating a coil, stability, flavor, lifetime and compatibility with temperature control technology etc. If one adds to that the fact that titanium is among the least bioactive elements and has a natural protective oxide surface we might just have a winner.

It can be right in terms of theoretical toxicity. It can be (and I hope is) wrong in terms of actual, measurable toxicity.
We do not know (and nobody now knows) about real levels of metals in vapor. I believe (do not know, just believe) they are low, and since kanthal is the most convinient material for me I will use it until (if) it is proven that Cr levels are high enough to be of concern.

Anyway, we should remember that we a bunch of guinea pigs in a global experiment of inhaling things previously not inhaled. Lungs are very different from stomach, much more sensitive and much more easily damaged. The same chromium is much more worse for lungs that for stomach. Chromium Compounds | Technology Transfer Network Air Toxics Web site | US EPA

I believe: potential harm from inhaling flavors and large quantities of PG/VG is greater than harm from metals emitted by coils. Of course it is just my beliefe, but unfortunaly as of today nobody has any reliable data to prove or disprove it.

 

[Jimi D.]

I've been vaping this un-pulsed coil on my REO for two days now. The taste is just too weird for me. Hell, I get more heavy metal exposer slinging pt lumber all day long. Everybody that ever a carrot will die ! I'll be back to pulsing tonight for that delicious flavor that I'm lacking.

 

[Katya]

I'm referring to the USC study that is being discussed in the thread you linked. Keep in mind, though, that that is not the only study that detected heavy metals in e-cig vapor. It appears to be a real phenomenon.

(snip)

Remember that heavy metals are cumulative, so there is really no "safe limit" for these metals as it's all about chronic exposure. The less the better. I am going to keep on vaping, though.

I have never seen any kind of article or news item regarding aluminum in indoor air, I suppose it might be safe to assume it isn't really of particular concern. In fact, it would seem based on my rudimentary search for the issue, it is of no concern.

Here's all the data from the USC study, including Compounds, Outdoor air, e-Cigarette, and normal cigarette. http://www.rsc.org/suppdata/em/c4/c4em00415a/c4em00415a1.pdf

For your convenience, listed below are the amounts of Cr, Ni, Pb, Zn and Al in outdoor air vs e-cigarette vapor:

Cr: 5.53 vs 4.22
Ni: 5.57 vs 6.14 (+/-2.9)
Pb: 13.28 vs 9.85
Zn: 54.31 vs 56.08 (+/- 21 [sic])
Al: 333.27 (±62.93) vs 161.43 (±71.35)

 

[Katya]

Wish I'd heard about this three weeks ago before I bought this:

View attachment 459638

Oh well.

Guess I'll stop torching.

On balance I think I will continue to oxidise my coils, while adjusting them, with a few pulse cycles.

I still feel there could be benefits to having the anealed coating on Kanthal.

The good Dr. has now said in his blog that the coil is likely to give off metals into the vapour no matter what, and in liklihood, dry heating the coil is only likely to slightly increase the volume.

So I'll not dry burn, and replace coils regularly in hope that newer coils have less degrading and therefore less emissions. Although it may turn out the fresh coils give off more metal in the early cycles - who knows.

Let's hope that the Dr. or others publish some concrete findings as soon as possible.

So sorry, Caterpillar... Do you need a good recipe for crème brûlée?

 

[druckle]

Here's all the data from the USC study, including Compounds, Outdoor air, e-Cigarette, and normal cigarette. http://www.rsc.org/suppdata/em/c4/c4em00415a/c4em00415a1.pdf

For your convenience, listed below are the amounts of Cr, Ni, Pb, Zn and Al in outdoor air vs e-cigarette vapor:

Cr: 5.53 vs 4.22
Ni: 5.57 vs 6.14 (+/-2.9)
Pb: 13.28 vs 9.85
Zn: 54.31 vs 56.08 (+/- 21 [sic])
Al: 333.27 (±62.93) vs 161.43 (±71.35)

Am I reading the data from the linked PDF file correctly? Seems that for many metallic species the indoor e-cig data show lower concentrations than the outdoor air. If this is right then maybe e-cigs are cleaning the air at the local area of the test.

 

[Thrasher]

There is a reply/ update to the initial statement.

Sorry if I missed it being posted already
Dry-burning metal coils: is it a good thing?

 

[Katya]

Am I reading the data from the linked PDF file correctly? Seems that for many metallic species the indoor e-cig data show lower concentrations than the outdoor air. If this is right then maybe e-cigs are cleaning the air at the local area of the test.

No doubt about it. Aluminum is particularly entertaining.

Have you ever been stuck in LA traffic on a smoggy day behind an 18-wheeler?

I rest my case. Until further notice.

 

[Alien Traveler]

There is a reply/ update to the initial statement.

Sorry if I missed it being posted already
Dry-burning metal coils: is it a good thing?

Unfortunately it was posted.

 

[druckle]

No doubt about it.

Have you ever been stuck in LA traffic on a smoggy day behind an 18-wheeler?

I rest my case. Until further notice.

OH...then we can expect a flood of folks telling us how dangerous ecigs are because they remove stuff from the air we "should" be breathing?

 

[druckle]

No doubt about it. Aluminum is particularly entertaining.

Have you ever been stuck in LA traffic on a smoggy day behind an 18-wheeler?

I rest my case. Until further notice.

Yeah, I have but I was protected because I was vaping.