The Meaning of "Boutique" juice and what you all are missing.

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rebgold

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Here's the thing that is driving me crazy about all the new, really expensive juices everyone raves about for a week and then forgets all about once they've moved on to the next big thing. A great juice, one that stands above the rest isn't just about an nice mix of flavors. It's also about the quality of the ingredients used.

When you order one of these "fancy" juices and you can taste the nic, you can taste the EM, you can pin point an exact TPA flavoring, that isn't good juice people, that's someone marketing their DIY to you the same as you could have done to them if you'd wanted to get a website and some labels.
Just because they gave it a cool name, a cool website, cool labels and bottles doesn't mean their blueberry lemonade is worth 24 bucks. Blueberry lemonade is just blueberry lemonade, whether you make it yourself for 2 bucks or pay 24 bucks for 15 ml of it because it's called Magical Smurf Blood or something.

I think some comparisons need to be made, about the quality of the base, the skilled use of sweeteners, if not by the average joe vapers themselves, which I would strongly recommend, at least by reviewers, most of whom have no business doing reviews. The point of a review shouldn't just be for an average person to tell you how a juice tastes to them. There should be a standard of language, such as the language used in wine reviews, where tart or fruity or sweet means something somewhat specific across the board. A review worth watching should not say, I like it, it's lemony. Reviewers should do some taste testing, it would be more useful to see someone review 10 blueberry lemonade flavors and describe the difference between them than review 10 flavors by one vendor when all they're saying is I like it, it's caramel-y. If you can't hone your palate to define the taste and smell of nic, pg, vg, em, sucralose, the particular smell of different brands of flavoring, why should anyone want to watch your reviews?

There is a reason the really successful liquids have lasted and remained popular, liquids like Pluid by Mad Murdock,( insert other old school favorite here since I used a bad example)
, etc... They are not just a tasty little mix of flavorings, they are QUALITY juices made by professionals who actually understand the ingredients in them! They stand out because they actually are different. They didn't just buy some nic from Wizard Labs and some flavors from The Perfumers Apprentice and dump some stuff in a bottle to make money off you. Sure, there are hundreds of other absinthe eliquids now that people have had years to copy, but there aren't hundreds with that kind of balance, smoothness, that don't burn or gunk up your works in a day or two. That taste good when you get it and weird three weeks later. That's what makes juice worth paying for, a standard of quality.

We need to develop these standards as vaping consumers, we should know enough by now to demand better than being duped into buying Bobs DIY with a cool label because it's hip and new this week.
 
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bman1977

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Boba's Bounty should not be included in your list. There's a thread in the AVE section on here for what's happened to Boba's.

Also I wouldn't want to watch a review of someone tasting 10 different blueberry lemonade juices. Watching paint dry would probably be more exciting. Finding the right juice is all subjective and lots of experimentation. E juice reviews should be taken with a grain of salt or not watched at all. They're pretty useless when you don;t know if a guys getting paid for his review or if he received free samples.
 

rebgold

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Fair enough, I couldn't think of another classic, quality eliquid off the top of my head that has been around as long as Pluid and that people talked about as much as Pluid. It's not even my favorite Mad Murdock juice, but it's iconic in this industry I believe. Remember the buzz about Pluid when Murdock was obviously working out the kinks of how to produce and market on a larger scale and it would be months before you could get your hands on it and it sold out in one day? That was like the wild west of vaping back then. Maybe it is the only juice that has stood the test of time and quality and stayed on top.

I don't want to watch someone taste 10 b/l flavors either, but do it, line them up, then give us the run down, tell us you tasted them all, the nic really stood out in this one, this one is way too sweet, this one is much more tart, this one has an odd chemical taste, etc...
When I pick a wine at the liquor store, I want to see a description of it that gives me an idea of what it will be like, is it tannic, mineral-y, fruit forward, acidic on the finish? I want words that have at least a chance of meaning something that will help me make a choice, not just, it's yummy, like grapes.

My point wasn't just to rant about reviewers. It was that without language and standards like that, that reviewers are in a good position to help provide us with, people are just shelling out big bucks for junk that someone has convinced them is cool and new vapers aren't even learning what makes a really top shelf quality juice in the first place.

Lasting quality, willingness to grow with the vaping industry, to develop standards, to be straight forward about practices and ingredients.
 
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bman1977

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Fair enough, I couldn't think of another classic, quality eliquid off the top of my head that has been around as long as Pluid and that people talked about as much as Pluid. It's not even my favorite Mad Murdock juice, but it's iconic in this industry I believe. Remember the buzz about Pluid when Murdock was obviously working out the kinks of how to produce and market on a larger scale and it would be months before you could get your hands on it and it sold out in one day? That was like the wild west of vaping back then. Maybe it is the only juice that has stood the test of time and quality and stayed on top.

I don't want to watch someone taste 10 b/l flavors either, but do it, line them up, then give us the run down, tell us you tasted them all, the nic really stood out in this one, this one is way too sweet, this one is much more tart, this one has an odd chemical taste, etc...
When I pick a wine at the liquor store, I want to see a description of it that gives me an idea of what it will be like, is it tannic, mineral-y, fruit forward, acidic on the finish? I want words that have at least a chance of meaning something that will help me make a choice, not just, it's yummy, like grapes.

My point wasn't just to rant about reviewers. It was that without language and standards like that, that reviewers are in a good position to help provide us with, people are just shelling out big bucks for junk that someone has convinced them is cool and new vapers aren't even learning what makes a really top shelf quality juice in the first place.

Lasting quality, willingness to grow with the vaping industry, to develop standards, to be straight forward about practices and ingredients.
+


Agreed
 

twgbonehead

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A huge problem is that the complex juices taste completely different at different power levels, and on different heads.

One of my favorites is "Deadly Sin" from GLV. How to describe it? At lower temperatures it has a sweet, almost "rice krispy treat" flavor. At higher power, the cinnamon starts to come out, and it tastes more like a cinnamon danish. I've heard that it's supposed to be a tobacco-style flavor, but I've never tasted the tobacco.

I could compare it to MBV's Cinnamon Roll. The MBV has more cinnamon (at all power levels) and has the taste of the "roll" as well - a hint of that bread-like flavor (which I really enjoy and which isn't really there in the DS).

Which one is sweeter? At low power, the deadly sin. At higher power, the MBV.

Which one is better? Depends on my mood, but I'd go with the DS 90% of the time.

Add to that steeping times, PG/VG ratios, nic levels, and you have something that's a nightmare to describe accurately.

I can tell you, though, that Hangsen Grape tastes like grapes. :laugh:
 
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DT Artisan

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Hmmm...Boutique juice.

I guess the same rules would apply for whether someone wants a Porsche (REAL Poldiac) or a bicycle (Poldiac clone). Both work about the same. It's all about what you're willing to pay for something in the long run. But as for me...my "Boutique" juice is homemade Strawberry Shortcake that I make myself for about 45 cents per 10 ml bottle. Mmmmm... :toast:

Brian
 

rebgold

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Ok, look, I'm a chef. I can taste 10 different canned chicken soups and give you descriptions that will actually mean something to you. I know what msg tastes like, I know what hydrolyzed yeast extract tastes like, I know what all the major wholesale food purveyors chicken soup base tastes like because I've used them all. I can tell you if it tastes natural, extremely artificial, salty, umami, vegetal, etc...

Maybe people don't know what I mean because they haven't tasted and smelled eliquid ingredients on their own. Do yourself a favor, order a small amount of nic from a few different places, it's cheap, get some pg, some vg, some ethyl maltol, some sucralose, and pick a common flavoring and get some from a few different flavoring vendors, TPA, Flavor West, Lorann, Capella. All this will cost you just about the cost of a really fancy bottle of "boutique" juice. Smell them, taste them, mix the together in different ways. You will be amazed. You will realize you have learned what about 90 percent of eliquids are in 10 minutes. Then you will have a clue what you should be looking for in quality juices. Then you will have a language of what you're really tasting in your juices and how they compare to each other.

Do that then get back to me and let me know how good that junk you just paid 20 bucks for is.
 

rebgold

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Lol. No im not kidding. Sorry. I'm really curious.

It was THE original boutique absinthe juice.
I'm not necessarily advocating it because I'm the biggest proponent of absinthe eliquid. I like it occasionally. Here is why I think Mad Murdock's juices stand out. Vape them, taste them literally on your tongue. You will not be able to identify the funkiness of the nic, you will not be able to say without a doubt which sweetener it is sweetened with. You will not be able to say you are completely sure it is made with a specific flavor from a specific company. That is what I mean by quality. His juices are much more than the sum of their parts.
Do yourself a favor and check them on Vapingwatch. There is really nothing else like them. I wish I could think of other juices that have stood the test of time and are so unique that most people know exactly what you're talking about when you mention it but couldn't exactly describe what it is.
 

twgbonehead

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Ok, look, I'm a chef. I can taste 10 different canned chicken soups and give you descriptions that will actually mean something to you. I know what msg tastes like, I know what hydrolyzed yeast extract tastes like, I know what all the major wholesale food purveyors chicken soup base tastes like because I've used them all. I can tell you if it tastes natural, extremely artificial, salty, umami, vegetal, etc...

Maybe people don't know what I mean because they haven't tasted and smelled eliquid ingredients on their own. Do yourself a favor, order a small amount of nic from a few different places, it's cheap, get some pg, some vg, some ethyl maltol, some sucralose, and pick a common flavoring and get some from a few different flavoring vendors, TPA, Flavor West, Lorann, Capella. All this will cost you just about the cost of a really fancy bottle of "boutique" juice. Smell them, taste them, mix the together in different ways. You will be amazed. You will realize you have learned what about 90 percent of eliquids are in 10 minutes. Then you will have a clue what you should be looking for in quality juices. Then you will have a language of what you're really tasting in your juices and how they compare to each other.

Do that then get back to me and let me know how good that junk you just paid 20 bucks for is.

Rebgold,

I'm really not trying to pick a fight, but I think you're missing the point.

If we were tasting the e-liquids, or even just smelling them, then the kind of comparisons you're describing would be valid. But we're not doing that.
We're vaping them, on a wide variety of setups.

I do agree that there are a lot of total crap e-liquids out there, selling for high prices, and with "rave" reviews. And it's not constant with time; for example, Killer Juice recently upped their flavor levels significantly, and now produce juice that's totally different (much better) than what they were selling 4 months ago. And look at the Boba's saga, which went the other way. (These are not necessarily boutique juices, but they're examples I am familiar with)

And if someone does conduct your test, why wouldn't they just keep on going and do DIY? (as lots of people have, and I'm surprised you don't seem to). BTW, do you like the LorAnn flavorings? Definitely weren't for me; I've also got FlavorWest and MBV flavorings which IMHO are much better. Haven't tried TFA yet (got a lot of flavorings to work through first!)

Juice reviews are the "poor-man's solution". Nothing can compare to taking your own dripper to a B&M, trying the juice yourself on your own hardware, (and hoping that the bottle of the stuff you love tastes the same when you get it home). And that's IF you have a decent B&M nearby (I don't).

My solution was to just refuse to buy the really expensive e-liquid, and find something at a reasonable price that I like. I use flavorings more often to tweak stuff I bought than to do DIY from scratch (although I do some of both).

Have you tried GLV's Black Fairy? I was wondering how you thought it stacked up to Pluid.

Have a great day!
 

rebgold

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Here's a good old thread about "renowned" juices from almost 2 years ago.

I pulled Lasttangos great post from thread to share with you.

"I like the idea of this thread ---> though we need to "qualify" what legendary means...
As far as I am concerned, an operational definition of Legendary would mean that a juice has been very popular for 3-4 years... it's has to have inspired other juice makers... and copycats... whether it is hot now or not.... so as good as nicoticket and indigo and mom and pop are... they are about 1.5-2+ years away from being legendary...

One exception IMO... being:
PLUID... Pluid has been discussed and in the making for a long time before it was commercially available... ...and it help inspired a boom in boutique and artisan juice making.

Whether I like them or not... and I do like most of these... I would qualify these as legendary... as far as ECF goes... over the past 3-4 years.

Boba's Bounty and Gorilla Juice
BWB RY4
BWB Malty Toffee
BWB Casablanca
Dulcis by Vaportalk
Bounty Hunter by Nitelite Vapor
Kona Cream Milkshake from Virgin (never had this one, but heh... immense popularity forever)
DK-TAB from Dekang
RY4 from Dekang
Taboo from LiquidXpress
I think you have to go with Geoff's Blend or Butterfinger from Tasty Vapor
Snickerdoodle Ms. T's...
Halo's Torque
V4L's Smilin' Menthol



as far as nets and more tobacco inspired... I think some have listed a few big ones...

Never tried it, but that Vermillion River line has been consistently pumped for at least 3 years.
as Dspin said... want2Vape's Alcazar is arguably one of the first nets that caught fire... want2vape makes great juice btw... their creme brulee is the best IMO...

well... I tried... it would be a worthy and fun activity to attempt to qualify what legendary means... and compile a list for newbies to see...

I have no doubt that companies like ahlusion, nicoticket, fuzion, vapetrik, mom and pops, goodlife etc will have legendary juices...


Boba's and Pluid have inspired so many juices... as has the regular janty or dekang RY4/ dulcis
Last edited by lasttango; 10-25-2013 at 05:37 PM.
I had to go back through Lasttango's threads to find examples of high end juices that have stood the test of time. Maybe Lasttango and Mr.Mann will get in on this as they've both stood the test of time and established themselves as serious vapers who understand quality, or some of the other long standing members whose names I have unfortunately forgotten since I haven't been around for a while."
 
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rebgold

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twgbonehead,

I DIY exclusively actually, that's why I haven't been around the forum much for the last year or so. It is because I began to DIY that I realized when I smelled and tasted these ingredients what a load of hype and bollocks most of these high priced liquids are.

In fact, there is only one premade juice I will pay money for now and it is a Mad Murdock liquid.

And yes, we are vaping, so let's agree on a standard for trying the liquids. 3.7 with a carto tank as one and a higher or lower with a dripper for another?

Forgot, I have never used Lorann in elquid, nor would I ever do so. I wouldn't even use it when I made candy for a living. It is the epitome of cheap crap in any application.
 
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DeathBYzombieZ

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Seems like a big rant about nothing. If you like something then vape it. I personally don't like cheaper juice cause it's usually not as good as premium craft juice. In most cases you get what you pay for. If I order from MBV or get house juice from the vape store down the street it's just not as good but it's also extremely cheap. The best deal I've had recently is the varying rabbit. $18 for 30 ml and it's some of the best juice I've ever had.
 

rebgold

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Seems like a big rant about nothing. If you like something then vape it. I personally don't like cheaper juice cause it's usually not as good as premium craft juice. In most cases you get what you pay for. If I order from MBV or get house juice from the vape store down the street it's just not as good but it's also extremely cheap. The best deal I've had recently is the varying rabbit. $18 for 30 ml and it's some of the best juice I've ever had.

Sigh...
The whole point is what is being sold as "premium craft juice" in your words is at least 8 out of 10 times exactly the same as what you're calling cheap juice.
 

DeathBYzombieZ

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Sigh...
The whole point is what is being sold as "premium craft juice" in your words is at least 8 out of 10 times exactly the same as what you're calling cheap juice.

Yeah I get it but I guess we'll never really know that. I mean how do you bobas isn't just a random mixture of Graham cracker and coffee (cause that's basically what it taste like) that someone put together and it turned out great or that murdock just mixed some licorice and absinthe together to make pluid. I think a lot of times people just catch a break, make a decent juice and people go ham on it.
 

DeathBYzombieZ

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Off topic but Vapingrabbit appears to be just a rip off of AIV, another classic whether you like their juices or not.

Not off topic. We were talking about juice prices and different companies so I gave my 2 cent.

I wouldn't say they're a rip off. The packaging is much more professional than AIV and I would say the taste is far superior.
 
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