What is tobacco absolute? Do you like it? Hate it? Ever vaped a liquid that had TA in it? How the hell do they make that stuff? Ever wondered what it is? Does your vendor use it? Want to stay away from it?
This thread is for discussing tobacco absolute (in general), pre-made juices that have TA as an ingredient, the different methods of extracting TA, likes and or dislikes with TA, suggestions of vendors who use it well or names of vendors who use it poorly. Though this thread is about tobacco absolute, it is NOT about DIYing or about finding ways to work with tobacco absolute for preexisting juices. If you do that, it's cool, but there is a DIY section better equipped for those discussions--you can talk about it here if you want, but it won't be incredibly useful for those that don't DIY (like me), but feel free as long as it doesn't turn into a DIY thread--I want this to be in general eliquid discussion.
In the NT (Natural Tobaccos) thread, there is no real consensus on whether or not to give TA juices a significant place in the line-up of NETs (natural/extracted tobaccos). A few reasons why there is no consensus is because a lot of vendors won't tell you if they use TA; most vendors use the same TA (Perfumer's Apprentice style); TA is cheap and easy to obtain and often times it can be downright nasty when not mixed carefully. That said, handled by the right hand, common TA can impart a dry, authentic (yet generic), taste of tobacco and an ash-like mouth-feel to the juice that may be as close as you'll get to the the taste of combustion with vaping--though ash was not what I remember tasting when I smoked, unless I dropped my cig in an ash tray and continued to smoke it after a quick dusting. Perish the thought!
Another reason most vendors that only use TA as their "natural tobacco" are out of NET consideration1 (by some NET vapers) is that while a vendor may sell eliquids called Turkish tobacco, burley, Virginia, flue or fire cured, Latakia, Camel (LOL), etc., the juices will all have that underlying TA taste--no differentiating between different tobaccos; it'll generally be but one tobacco taste which is the taste of TA. A drop of a pre-made Bulgarian tobacco concentrate, that anyone can buy, ought not put you in the ring with vendors working hard to extract quality flavors from a plethora of tobaccos---anyone can DIY with tobacco absolute (or other DIY concentrates), but that won't put you on a guest list with Dr. Vapenstein from Want2Vape, now will it?
For those that don't know, tobacco absolute, for the purpose of vaping, is a flavoring agent made from tobacco and is used primarily to enhance tobacco eliquids2. TA is a dense, dark greenish-brown hydrophobic resin that is super potent--too much in your liquid and it will be nasty and immiscible--it needs to be diluted and used sparingly (like 1 drop per 10 mL--even that may be too much.) And while technically being extracted tobacco, it is an aromatic super concentrate rather than a simple extract or even an essential oil. Just adding TA to PG/VG without a delicate hand will give you a terrible mess.
While a lot of vendors don't state whether they use tobacco absolute (though many will tell you if asked and some state it on the website), it is generally easy to spot. Here are some things to look for:
+ A vendor may claim a "natural tobacco flavor" but won't state where it's made or they'll say it's obtained from a third party company
+ You may see "Bulgarian Tobacco Extract"--a lot of common TA is made from Bulgarian tobacco
+ You may notice reviews speaking of an ash-like (and sometimes perfume3) taste to the juice--though, don't go thinking that all perfume tasting juices are TA
+ A tobacco eliquid may need to shaken up (due to oily separation or sediment), carry an oily residue visible in the liquid or on the inside of the bottle (oil rings)
(Those are all generalizations, but helpful tips nonetheless, and may not always lead you to the truth. The best thing to do is communicate with the vendor if you want to be sure.)
Most of that looks pretty unappealing, doesn't it? Yeah, it can be. However, as I stated, TA in the right hands can give eliquid a very special quality. Some of my favorite juices are tobacco absolute juices! Most vendors use it properly and many (maybe even most vapers) have vaped it and been none the wiser.
Footnotes
1One eliquid vendor out of San Francisco, Velvet Cloud Vapor, makes all VG liquids (no PG) with a fantastic tobacco absolute and it should not be confused with common Perfumer's Apprentice TA (though it is still an absolute). VCV makes a TA that carries more bright qualities from the tobacco used and theirs (IMO) does not have that ash like taste; plus, when you make your own extraction like they do (and do it well), it puts you in a different category. I consider VCV a natural/extracted tobacco vendor that happens to make their own TA.
A couple vendors who don't make their own TA in-house, but do a helluva job with it (IMO) are Moondrop.com and Mom and Pop Vapor Shop. Both of those vendors are completely upfront about using TA and they know that it doesn't matter who knows because at the heart of it all is some crafty juice mixing. Sometimes an ingredient is just an ingredient. But an eliquid mixer is never just a liquid mixer.
2Supposedly, Tobacco Absolute has also been used as a flavor agent in the cigarette industry in cigarette tobacco.
3Tobacco Absolute is primarily used in the perfume industry for fragrances, especially men's fragrances. From what I've read, it is also used by some as a smoking cessation aid where they simply smell the aroma of the concentrate when feeling the need to smoke (don't know how well that works?! LOL. I think I'll vape instead.)
Special notes
(A): There is another concentrate called Tobacco Extract (TE) that is a sister to TA but it is water soluble, though essentially the same thing, it's just easier to work with. Don't be confused if a vendor says, "we don't use tobacco absolute, we use tobacco extract." Ask them if they make it in-house, if it's American made, or if it's a solvent extraction-- if they don't, can't or won't answer those questions in a way that tells you that it's not TA's sister, it's probably a DIY concentrate like this.
(B): I recently spoke with the people at Darth Vapers and while they didn't say to me that the house extraction they make is TA, they do say that it is steam distilled and "like an essential oil." Their tobaccos (the ones I have had, Cocobacco--I am vaping Cocobacco right now--and Vanilla Tobacco) do have a dry, ash-like (maybe more powdery than ash) taste, but they told me that they use 5 tobaccos in various combinations and not all of their tobacco eliquids use the same base--11 out of their 23 tobacco liquids have the house extract (the two I have, I think, do have the same base, but I really like 'em). The point is that steam distilled extracts made in-house and used by Darth Vapers and Vermillion River (though VR gets their steam distilled extracts third party) may at times taste and act like absolutes, but they are not technically absolutes (absolutes require the usage of solvents).
(C): TA is made through solvent extractions like hexane, pure grain alcohol or super critical CO2 into a tobacco concrete (essential oils, resins and essence in a dense matter, i.e, concrete) and a subsequent extraction using ethanol or ethyl alcohol from the concrete into an absolute. That said, just because a vendor uses a similar technique (though you'll never hear of a NET vendor using hexane extraction) it doesn't necessarily mean they are extracting into an absolute--confused yet? haha. The biggest tell of an absolute will always be the look and the taste of your juice, but the vendor's word should be the final say.
VERY IMPORTANT: Never assume anything! If you don't know or suspect a vendor is using TA, ask the vendor for clarification. There's NOTHING, as far as I am concerned, wrong with TA (hell, I seek it out), but sometimes you just want to know. If a vendor will not respond or answer your questions, I wouldn't support them anyway--damn whether or not they use TA.
I have been scouring the internet for quite some time for any info on TA, so much of what I learned has been accumulated over the months. However, some of the info I have stated can be found through various sites from aromatherapy vendors, perfume makers, eliquid DIY supplies and, of course, Wikipedia (LOL). These are just a few of the sites I've used (and communicated with via email, except for, obviously, Wikipedia
).
Fragrance extraction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Difference between absolutes and essential oils.
Perfumers Apprentice - Tobacco Blends, Absolutes, & Extracts
http://www.sunrosearomatics.com/catalog/shop/shopexd.asp?id=1019
TOBACCO ABSOLUTE: Samara Botane Aromatic Apothecary
Hexane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tobacco Essential Oil | Gritman Essential Oils
(Disclaimer: From all the reports--not the actual tests, but "reports"-- I've seen on GC-MS tests of different tobacco absolutes, no TSNAs have been detected as well as no detectable amounts of the solvents used for the extraction were found in the final product. Obviously there will always be exceptions though, so who really knows? I am almost positive tobacco absolute has been used in eliquid since the inception of ecigs, so its definitely embedded in vaping. That is not to say it is safe for human consumption because all I've read indicates it was never intended for that. Use you own judgement and vape on!)
This thread is for discussing tobacco absolute (in general), pre-made juices that have TA as an ingredient, the different methods of extracting TA, likes and or dislikes with TA, suggestions of vendors who use it well or names of vendors who use it poorly. Though this thread is about tobacco absolute, it is NOT about DIYing or about finding ways to work with tobacco absolute for preexisting juices. If you do that, it's cool, but there is a DIY section better equipped for those discussions--you can talk about it here if you want, but it won't be incredibly useful for those that don't DIY (like me), but feel free as long as it doesn't turn into a DIY thread--I want this to be in general eliquid discussion.
In the NT (Natural Tobaccos) thread, there is no real consensus on whether or not to give TA juices a significant place in the line-up of NETs (natural/extracted tobaccos). A few reasons why there is no consensus is because a lot of vendors won't tell you if they use TA; most vendors use the same TA (Perfumer's Apprentice style); TA is cheap and easy to obtain and often times it can be downright nasty when not mixed carefully. That said, handled by the right hand, common TA can impart a dry, authentic (yet generic), taste of tobacco and an ash-like mouth-feel to the juice that may be as close as you'll get to the the taste of combustion with vaping--though ash was not what I remember tasting when I smoked, unless I dropped my cig in an ash tray and continued to smoke it after a quick dusting. Perish the thought!
Another reason most vendors that only use TA as their "natural tobacco" are out of NET consideration1 (by some NET vapers) is that while a vendor may sell eliquids called Turkish tobacco, burley, Virginia, flue or fire cured, Latakia, Camel (LOL), etc., the juices will all have that underlying TA taste--no differentiating between different tobaccos; it'll generally be but one tobacco taste which is the taste of TA. A drop of a pre-made Bulgarian tobacco concentrate, that anyone can buy, ought not put you in the ring with vendors working hard to extract quality flavors from a plethora of tobaccos---anyone can DIY with tobacco absolute (or other DIY concentrates), but that won't put you on a guest list with Dr. Vapenstein from Want2Vape, now will it?
For those that don't know, tobacco absolute, for the purpose of vaping, is a flavoring agent made from tobacco and is used primarily to enhance tobacco eliquids2. TA is a dense, dark greenish-brown hydrophobic resin that is super potent--too much in your liquid and it will be nasty and immiscible--it needs to be diluted and used sparingly (like 1 drop per 10 mL--even that may be too much.) And while technically being extracted tobacco, it is an aromatic super concentrate rather than a simple extract or even an essential oil. Just adding TA to PG/VG without a delicate hand will give you a terrible mess.
While a lot of vendors don't state whether they use tobacco absolute (though many will tell you if asked and some state it on the website), it is generally easy to spot. Here are some things to look for:
+ A vendor may claim a "natural tobacco flavor" but won't state where it's made or they'll say it's obtained from a third party company
+ You may see "Bulgarian Tobacco Extract"--a lot of common TA is made from Bulgarian tobacco
+ You may notice reviews speaking of an ash-like (and sometimes perfume3) taste to the juice--though, don't go thinking that all perfume tasting juices are TA
+ A tobacco eliquid may need to shaken up (due to oily separation or sediment), carry an oily residue visible in the liquid or on the inside of the bottle (oil rings)
(Those are all generalizations, but helpful tips nonetheless, and may not always lead you to the truth. The best thing to do is communicate with the vendor if you want to be sure.)
Most of that looks pretty unappealing, doesn't it? Yeah, it can be. However, as I stated, TA in the right hands can give eliquid a very special quality. Some of my favorite juices are tobacco absolute juices! Most vendors use it properly and many (maybe even most vapers) have vaped it and been none the wiser.
............................
Footnotes
1One eliquid vendor out of San Francisco, Velvet Cloud Vapor, makes all VG liquids (no PG) with a fantastic tobacco absolute and it should not be confused with common Perfumer's Apprentice TA (though it is still an absolute). VCV makes a TA that carries more bright qualities from the tobacco used and theirs (IMO) does not have that ash like taste; plus, when you make your own extraction like they do (and do it well), it puts you in a different category. I consider VCV a natural/extracted tobacco vendor that happens to make their own TA.
A couple vendors who don't make their own TA in-house, but do a helluva job with it (IMO) are Moondrop.com and Mom and Pop Vapor Shop. Both of those vendors are completely upfront about using TA and they know that it doesn't matter who knows because at the heart of it all is some crafty juice mixing. Sometimes an ingredient is just an ingredient. But an eliquid mixer is never just a liquid mixer.
2Supposedly, Tobacco Absolute has also been used as a flavor agent in the cigarette industry in cigarette tobacco.
3Tobacco Absolute is primarily used in the perfume industry for fragrances, especially men's fragrances. From what I've read, it is also used by some as a smoking cessation aid where they simply smell the aroma of the concentrate when feeling the need to smoke (don't know how well that works?! LOL. I think I'll vape instead.)
Special notes
(A): There is another concentrate called Tobacco Extract (TE) that is a sister to TA but it is water soluble, though essentially the same thing, it's just easier to work with. Don't be confused if a vendor says, "we don't use tobacco absolute, we use tobacco extract." Ask them if they make it in-house, if it's American made, or if it's a solvent extraction-- if they don't, can't or won't answer those questions in a way that tells you that it's not TA's sister, it's probably a DIY concentrate like this.
(B): I recently spoke with the people at Darth Vapers and while they didn't say to me that the house extraction they make is TA, they do say that it is steam distilled and "like an essential oil." Their tobaccos (the ones I have had, Cocobacco--I am vaping Cocobacco right now--and Vanilla Tobacco) do have a dry, ash-like (maybe more powdery than ash) taste, but they told me that they use 5 tobaccos in various combinations and not all of their tobacco eliquids use the same base--11 out of their 23 tobacco liquids have the house extract (the two I have, I think, do have the same base, but I really like 'em). The point is that steam distilled extracts made in-house and used by Darth Vapers and Vermillion River (though VR gets their steam distilled extracts third party) may at times taste and act like absolutes, but they are not technically absolutes (absolutes require the usage of solvents).
(C): TA is made through solvent extractions like hexane, pure grain alcohol or super critical CO2 into a tobacco concrete (essential oils, resins and essence in a dense matter, i.e, concrete) and a subsequent extraction using ethanol or ethyl alcohol from the concrete into an absolute. That said, just because a vendor uses a similar technique (though you'll never hear of a NET vendor using hexane extraction) it doesn't necessarily mean they are extracting into an absolute--confused yet? haha. The biggest tell of an absolute will always be the look and the taste of your juice, but the vendor's word should be the final say.
VERY IMPORTANT: Never assume anything! If you don't know or suspect a vendor is using TA, ask the vendor for clarification. There's NOTHING, as far as I am concerned, wrong with TA (hell, I seek it out), but sometimes you just want to know. If a vendor will not respond or answer your questions, I wouldn't support them anyway--damn whether or not they use TA.
I have been scouring the internet for quite some time for any info on TA, so much of what I learned has been accumulated over the months. However, some of the info I have stated can be found through various sites from aromatherapy vendors, perfume makers, eliquid DIY supplies and, of course, Wikipedia (LOL). These are just a few of the sites I've used (and communicated with via email, except for, obviously, Wikipedia
).Fragrance extraction - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Difference between absolutes and essential oils.
Perfumers Apprentice - Tobacco Blends, Absolutes, & Extracts
http://www.sunrosearomatics.com/catalog/shop/shopexd.asp?id=1019
TOBACCO ABSOLUTE: Samara Botane Aromatic Apothecary
Hexane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Tobacco Essential Oil | Gritman Essential Oils
(Disclaimer: From all the reports--not the actual tests, but "reports"-- I've seen on GC-MS tests of different tobacco absolutes, no TSNAs have been detected as well as no detectable amounts of the solvents used for the extraction were found in the final product. Obviously there will always be exceptions though, so who really knows? I am almost positive tobacco absolute has been used in eliquid since the inception of ecigs, so its definitely embedded in vaping. That is not to say it is safe for human consumption because all I've read indicates it was never intended for that. Use you own judgement and vape on!)
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