Tobacco extraction using heated Ethanol

[nostradadus]

Stoved Black Virginia.

I almost purchased that my last go round. Next time, it will be on the list along with some Orientals.

Now, I just need to make a trip to the ABC store for some more PGA.

 

[Str8vision]

Very interesting tid-bit of info! A mixologist bud of mine sent me about 5 of the Purilum synth tobaccos.....they were NOT all that and a bag of chips.

Purilum may have been one of the issues D&R faced, plus, the fact that what they were selling was NOT strawberry kiwi chocolate marshmallow infused gummy bear sweet tart custard sucralosed ladened "premium" e-liquid. ...........

Personally, I think that in order to make great NETs the people involved in the process need to like and vape NETs. Otherwise how do they know their product is palatable/marketable? I seriously doubt D&R, a tobacco company, employed NET connoisseurs to help formulate their e-liquid products and I think the quality of many other retail NETs suffer for the very same reason. Few of the retail NETs I've sampled tasted very good, most of them were weak and or obviously made from generic TA since their tobacco flavor was rather bland and non-descript. None of the synthetics I've tried tasted -anything- like tobacco to me. Popcorn, bell pepper, straw and or wood perhaps but not tobacco.

..........I haven't actually seen poll numbers, but I imagine the folks that like a pure tobacco vape is around 1% of the vaping population.

Me thinks you're right about that, we are but a very small fringe group likely less than 1% of vapers. I tried to like syrupy sweet fruit, bakery, beverage and or candy flavors but for me it's NET or nothing.

I don't really mind being part of a fringe group, except that there isn't a large enough customer base to warrant companies like NET.com spending tens of millions of dollars seeking FDA approval. I've always suspected retail NETs were an endangered species which is the primary reason I spent years learning how to make my own. Another is that any retail NETs remaining after 2018 will no doubt pass the cost of FDA approval/deeming on to the consumer through higher product prices, when coupled with the forthcoming state "tobacco product" taxes, the price of retail NETs could reach $1.50 per ml or more. I much prefer spending $0.03 per ml making my own. As I've said in other threads, stockpiling nic and making your own juice removes government from the equation entirely. Kicks their ugly, lying, corrupt derrière to the curb where it belongs.

 

[nostradadus]

seriously doubt D&R, a tobacco company, employed NET connoisseurs to help formulate their e-liquid products

Thus just one of the reasons the D&R line of e-liquids probably failed; surely they make enough money in the pipe tobacco arena not to care whether or not it was a success.

I've always suspected retail NETs were an endangered species which is the primary reason I spent years learning how to make my own.

No doubt, NET vendors will vanish; being able to get our hands on real tobacco for our personal NET purposes will likely never vanish. Next spring, after I follow, read back posts and ask lots of questions on a home growers tobacco FB group all winter long, I'm giving growing my own tobacco a shot. One step further to your comment below.....

removes government from the equation entirely. Kicks their ugly, lying, corrupt derrière to the curb where it belongs

 

[usr/]

I'm giving growing my own tobacco a shot.

Heirloom Tobacco Seeds for Sale - Sustainable Seed Co.

It's all here for the making!

 

[nostradadus]

It's all here for the making!

Sooooo many choices!

This is also a good site for seed possibilities and loads of helpful info concerning growing your own tobacco.

Tobacco Seeds From Around the World

 

[usr/]

Sooooo many choices!

This is also a good site for seed possibilities and loads of helpful info concerning growing your own tobacco.

Tobacco Seeds From Around the World

Noticed they have a boatload of flavorings/enhancers, also. Good link. Thanks.

bookmarked!

 

[happy valley]

Few of the retail NETs I've sampled tasted very good, most of them were weak and or obviously made from generic TA since their tobacco flavor was rather bland and non-descript.

.....we are but a very small fringe group likely less than 1% of vapers. I tried to like syrupy sweet fruit, bakery, beverage and or candy flavors but for me it's NET or nothing.

I don't really mind being part of a fringe group, except that there isn't a large enough customer base to warrant companies like NET.com spending tens of millions of dollars seeking FDA approval. I've always suspected retail NETs were an endangered species which is the primary reason I spent years learning how to make my own. Another is that any retail NETs remaining after 2018 will no doubt pass the cost of FDA approval/deeming on to the consumer through higher product prices, when coupled with the forthcoming state "tobacco product" taxes, the price of retail NETs could reach $1.50 per ml or more. I much prefer spending $0.03 per ml making my own. As I've said in other threads, stockpiling nic and making your own juice removes government from the equation entirely.

Hear, hear! Bravo Str8, I've read through the entire thread, though it's taken several sessions to do so. Thanks for your lengthy diligence in pursing these ends and reporting on it. Frankly, it's what brought me to this forum and this last bit quoted above caused me to actually want to register and submit my measly 2 cents herein.

I too am not much a fan of the candy, fruit, bakery flavor schemes. I've long been a tobacco man, though not tailor made cigs, rather 20 years or so of RYO Stokkebye halfzware type shags and a frequent pipe smoker. The RYO went haywire a few years back when the government CHIPRA legislation came calling with it's hand out and levied excise increases 87% or whatever it was. Then there was the pipe. Bulk, loose tobacco had thus far escaped the tax man's clutches but we pipe enthusiasts were always leary that wouldn't last. Cellaring and aging became a goal.

So now, I'm new to vaping. It's taken this long to realize combustion is not something that user friendly to me anymore. But a question arises: what to do with 50 something pounds of fine, high grade, aged tobacco, good stuff, Gawith Hoggarth, Rattray's, Samuel Gawith, Dunhill, MacBaren, McClelland, and so on as well as blending components latakia, perique, burleys, etc. (not to mention some 30 odd pieces of carved Mediterranean region briar, but that's another discussion).

Thus, I've taken a keen interest in what you've learned and written, but as you alluded in the post upthread, being a fringe minority, good, empirical info has been hard to come by. Honestly the learning curve on the whole vaping thing has been a bit steep for me, seems like there's a good deal of of hyper junk out there to throw away money on.

 

[nostradadus]

what to do with 50 something pounds of fine, high grade, aged tobacco, good stuff, Gawith Hoggarth, Rattray's, Samuel Gawith, Dunhill, MacBaren, McClelland, and so on as well as blending components latakia, perique, burleys

I see your future...... You will soon come into possesion of many, many, many mason jars.

 

[Str8vision]

Hi happy valley, and welcome! If making NETs is a hobby or goal, this is certainly -the- place to be.

.....But a question arises: what to do with 50 something pounds of fine, high grade, aged tobacco....

If NETs are your thing and you enjoy making your own, with 50# of tobacco on hand you're set for life. Last time I calculated, the cost of making NET was around $0.03 per ml or $0.90 for a 30ml bottle (10mg nic strength). Tobacco accounts for about 35% of the total cost so you're well ahead of the game.

....Honestly the learning curve on the whole vaping thing has been a bit steep for me, seems like there's a good deal of of hyper junk out there to throw away money on.

Yes, in my opinion there's a lot of overhyped, overpriced, dubiously useful stuff out there. One good thing about ECF is there's plenty of good, valuable information available to those able to discern between over exuberant "fan" posts and genuine, honest reviews. If you have any questions, or need some help/advice just post.

 

[Str8vision]

I see your future...... You will soon come into possesion of many, many, many mason jars.

 

[happy valley]

Str8, I'm assuming you are using 190 PGA. The nanny state where I currently reside has long banned this demon drink but I had concluded this wouldn't be a problem since I live in a border town to another state where I had seen Everclear on the shelves. Alas, today I did indeed find Everclear only to learn it's the 151 proof edition. What would your thoughts be on using this watered down version?

 

[Str8vision]

In the past, several others have reported similar difficulties obtaining 190 proof PGA but I've yet to hear from anyone who's tried using a different ethanol/water ratio for this extraction method. I've only ever used 190 proof PGA (>95% ethanol <5% water) so don't know what flavor difference 151 proof PGA (>75% ethanol <25% water) would yield. I'm also unsure what effect the higher water content might have on the "freeze filtering" process. Since you already have the 151 proof PGA and have ample tobacco on hand why not use it in a small (1/2 ounce of tobacco) experimental extraction and sample/evaluate the results? It might work flawlessly, but we won't know till it's been tried. Filtration shouldn't be a problem since both water and ethanol have a low viscosity. I do think when you reduce (evaporate) the extract by 75% the remaining 25% will mainly be water since the highly volatile ethanol will tend to evaporate first. Considering that both PG and VG are highly hygroscopic (readily absorbs water, even from the surrounding air) once mixed with PG/VG the absorbed water will be locked in, (can't evaporate it off) and will tend thin the mix lowering its viscosity. I'd counter this by increasing the ratio of VG just a bit in the final mix.

 

[TheWestPole]

Str8, I'm assuming you are using 190 PGA. The nanny state where I currently reside has long banned this demon drink but I had concluded this wouldn't be a problem since I live in a border town to another state where I had seen Everclear on the shelves. Alas, today I did indeed find Everclear only to learn it's the 151 proof edition. What would your thoughts be on using this watered down version?

In the past, several others have reported similar difficulties obtaining 190 proof PGA but I've yet to hear from anyone who's tried using a different ethanol/water ratio for this extraction method. I've only ever used 190 proof PGA (>95% ethanol <5% water) so don't know what flavor difference 151 proof PGA (>75% ethanol <25% water) would yield. I'm also unsure what effect the higher water content might have on the "freeze filtering" process. Since you already have the 151 proof PGA and have ample tobacco on hand why not use it in a small (1/2 ounce of tobacco) experimental extraction and sample/evaluate the results? It might work flawlessly, but we won't know till it's been tried. Filtration shouldn't be a problem since both water and ethanol have a low viscosity. I do think when you reduce (evaporate) the extract by 75% the remaining 25% will mainly be water since the highly volatile ethanol will tend to evaporate first. Considering that both PG and VG are highly hygroscopic (readily absorbs water, even from the surrounding air) once mixed with PG/VG the absorbed water will be locked in, (can't evaporate it off) and will tend thin the mix lowering its viscosity. I'd counter this by increasing the ratio of VG just a bit in the final mix.

The five batches I just did (my first alcohol extractions) were all done with Everclear 151. There was no crystallization in the freezer, just sediment, and the second drip filtration right out of the freezer worked fine. They evaporated down 75% just fine too, though took longer than 190 proof I gather, and final filtered cleanly. The mixed juice concentrations are also ranging roughly as I've read here: 6-9% depending on the tobacco variety. I'm happy. No 190 proof experience to compare to, but happy.

 

[nostradadus]

I'm happy. No 190 proof experience to compare to, but happy.

Same here.

However, I remember reading this somewhere on another forum a while back, concerning needing to obtain a higher ethanol content from lower proof solvents. I have not tried this myself, but in theory, it seems like it would work.

De-H2O your ethanol:

1. Buy a bottle of solvent (151 proof vodka or PGA) and a bag of dry ice.
2. Pour solvent into a metal container.
3. Add isopropyl alcohol (any pharmacy type) to dry ice in a separate metal bowl to make a freezing bath. Use it to freeze the container with your solvent. Any water in the solvent will form to ice and the remaining liquid will be concentrated ethanol.

If anyone takes a stab at this process, I'd sure like to know how it turns out.

Of course, zeolite would be the easier route to choose; it can be dried out and reused.

 

[happy valley]

I am appreciative for the comments and confirmations, so for the time being until I can get my mitts on some 190 PGA, the 151 Everclear will have to do, work with what I have and so on. As well, if it is to be 151 proof, I ponder trying 151 rum??? Might it impart a favorable essence? One of my favored pipe tobaccos is Gawith & Hoggarth Rum Flake, succinctly described by Tobacco Reviews thusly:

The 'Christmas cake' of all our tobaccos. A very rich, fully flavoured blend. The main feature is the high proportion of naturally sweet sun-cured tobaccos in the blend - over 40% Only 30% Virginia leaf, with the rest of the blend coming from burleys and Dark-air cured contribute to a strong, but rewarding smoke. The whole blend is cased in maple sugars to further enhance the natural sweetness of the sun cured leaf and then rounded off with a dash of rum.

The possibilities abound...........
. -

 

[Bunnykiller]

What I have found with "flavored" alcohols used in combination with extracting is there are sugars that can become troublesome in the end results leading to gunking issues and carbon formations on the coils. Some liquours use honey and that alone is a nightmare to contend with....

 

[Str8vision]

After a 4 month room temperature soak I pulled the quart jars of Acid Blondie, Acid Opulence, Louisiana Red and pint jar of Picayune for separation/filtering. Separating the solvent from tobacco with such large batches took some doing, each of the quart jar extractions required multiple coffee filters. Ended up with around 21 ounces (621ml) from each of the quart jars and 10 ounces (295ml) from the pint.

Once separated the extracts were resealed and placed in a freezer at -10F for 48 hours allowing some of the undesirable gunk leeched from the tobacco during the extraction process to precipitate out of solution. After the 48 hour "cold treatment" the extracts were filtered while still in the freezer. Both the Blondie and Opulence cigar extracts required multiple coffee filters and several hours to cold filter while the Louisiana Red and Picayune pipe tobaccos were surprisingly quick and easy. The 21 ounces of L. Red required only one filter and perhaps 30 minutes time whereas the Blondie required three filters and around 90 minutes. Ended up with approximately 19 ounces remaining from each of the quarts and 9 ounces from the pint jar so around a 10% loss to the filter gods. Much of this "loss" is actually the undesirable gunk that was leeched from the tobacco during the extraction process. As it precipitates out of solution during cold storage this "gunk" collects at the bottom of the jar and I've learned to avoid dumping it in the filter (when cold filtering) otherwise it quickly loads and clogs the filter.

All the extracts are currently being slowly reduced (concentrated) ~70% via natural open air evaporation. Once reduction is complete the jars will be resealed and allowed to sit at room temperature, undisturbed, for two weeks allowing any dissolved oils time to coalesce before the final filtering (1 micron). However, before the final filtering, 45ml from one of these "condensed" extracts will be subjected to the freeze filtering process again. I have a hunch that freeze filtering after reduction may prove to be more effective at removing undesirable elements (gunk) since there is significantly less solvent available to continue holding these dissolved elements in solution. Unfortunately, there's also a chance flavor could be negatively impacted as well, only time will tell.

 

[kbriggs]

I have a hunch that freeze filtering after reduction may prove to be more effective at removing undesirable elements

That is the way I've been doing it lately with my heated PGA extractions. It made more sense to me do the reduction first since that leaves all kinds of gunk behind, sticking to the sides of the jar. I then run that through the coffee filter, freeze it for 48 hours, and then do a 2.5 micron filter inside the freezer.

 

[Boxster]

After a 4 month room temperature soak I pulled the quart jars of Acid Blondie, Acid Opulence, Louisiana Red and pint jar of Picayune for separation/filtering. Separating the solvent from tobacco with such large batches took some doing, each of the quart jar extractions required multiple coffee filters. Ended up with around 21 ounces (621ml) from each of the quart jars and 10 ounces (295ml) from the pint.

Once separated the extracts were resealed and placed in a freezer at -10F for 48 hours allowing some of the undesirable gunk leeched from the tobacco during the extraction process to precipitate out of solution. After the 48 hour "cold treatment" the extracts were filtered while still in the freezer. Both the Blondie and Opulence cigar extracts required multiple coffee filters and several hours to cold filter while the Louisiana Red and Picayune pipe tobaccos were surprisingly quick and easy. The 21 ounces of L. Red required only one filter and perhaps 30 minutes time whereas the Blondie required three filters and around 90 minutes. Ended up with approximately 19 ounces remaining from each of the quarts and 9 ounces from the pint jar so around a 10% loss to the filter gods. Much of this "loss" is actually the undesirable gunk that was leeched from the tobacco during the extraction process. As it precipitates out of solution during cold storage this "gunk" collects at the bottom of the jar and I've learned to avoid dumping it in the filter (when cold filtering) otherwise it quickly loads and clogs the filter.

All the extracts are currently being slowly reduced (concentrated) ~70% via natural open air evaporation. Once reduction is complete the jars will be resealed and allowed to sit at room temperature, undisturbed, for two weeks allowing any dissolved oils time to coalesce before the final filtering (1 micron). However, before the final filtering, 45ml from one of these "condensed" extracts will be subjected to the freeze filtering process again. I have a hunch that freeze filtering after reduction may prove to be more effective at removing undesirable elements (gunk) since there is significantly less solvent available to continue holding these dissolved elements in solution. Unfortunately, there's also a chance flavor could be negatively impacted as well, only time will tell.

On one of my early extractions I tried an experiment. I first did a 48 hour freeze filter (in the freezer 2um filter), and put the extract back in the freezer for another 48 hours and filtered again. Yep more gunk. I then did a third freeze filter that came out pretty clean. This can vary depending on the tobacco, but my conclusion is that 48 hours in the freezer is not long enough to get full fallout. I would guess that for the larger volumes you are working with even more time may be required.

 

[Boxster]

Anybody ever tried a hookah tobacco?
I am currently working on an extract of Al fakher Shisha apple flavored tobacco for a friend.
When I opened the box the tobacco was a gooey mess. My understanding is that the tobacco is soaked in molasses. Freeze filtering took over 14 hours.
I have a strong feeling this is going to be a coil killer. I am still in the reduction faze, and the extract smells very potent, so hopefully a low percentage mix will help offset the gunkyness.