Tobacco extraction using heated Ethanol

[yourgurnard]

Thanks Str8.
Yeah, it'll get freezed etc. I think I'm ok re. 'the method', & I can refer back to the start of this Thread if I forget!!!
I can live with 6 months!....still got 4x cold PG steeps soaking from 3rd Feb. so They can wait 'till 3rd Aug. as that ain't long now.
I've just now poured PG over the other 5g. of 'Elizabethan' so I can compare side-by-side (albeit at Christmas!!...)
Actually, the waiting is no prob.........so long as there's sufficient extract already available for mixing up!!

 

[Str8vision]

Have you ever tried adding 10% VG to your PG extraction solvent?

 

[Simchaleh]

i have some questions about this method. sorry i couldnt find the time to read through 56 pages, hopefully someone could sum things up for me.

1)the more i research about making my own e-juice, the more i see people warning against the dangers of vaping the different waxes and oils that come from these procceses, when not checked by a chemist afterwards. however i have a feeling theyre just being over paranoid, and that if people followed safe solid guidlines, that it should be possible and even safer than buying commercially produced juices

is following this method completely safe, since you pretty much leave out the gunk in the bottom of the container when u freeze steep it, and then afterwards filter it and leave the gunk in the bottom of the container?


2) can i use this method with any herbs?
chammomile, sage, cinnamon, etc?


3)can i do this method, and then vaporate out almost all of the alchohol, then afterwards add it into 100% vg, for vaping?

4)if i did this with tobbaco, would it also retain nicotine, or just flavor?

thnks so much!!!
sb

 

[yourgurnard]

Have you ever tried adding 10% VG to your PG extraction solvent?

No, My 1st ever extraction was using heated VG but all subsequent ones have been cold PG.
Also, My finished juices are 70PG/30VG now (& My Nic is VG..) so I'm quite near the limit re. the amount of VG I can 'fit in' to the calculator!
What does the 10% VG 'bring to the mix' then?

 

[Str8vision]

i have some questions about this method. sorry i couldnt find the time to read through 56 pages, hopefully someone could sum things up for me.

1)the more i research about making my own e-juice, the more i see people warning against the dangers of vaping the different waxes and oils that come from these procceses, when not checked by a chemist afterwards. however i have a feeling theyre just being over paranoid, and that if people followed safe solid guidlines, that it should be possible and even safer than buying commercially produced juices

My first advise would be to scrutinize any information you read or hear about the "dangers" of vaping, most of it is unsubstantiated folklore created and repeated by people who lack any credentials/training/knowledge or understanding of what they're talking about. Your term "over paranoid" is spot on. It's also difficult to know which scientists/researchers to trust since many of them have an agenda driven by their source of funding. The only comprehensive scientific analysis of NET that I've found came from Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos and a group of scientists/researchers, in his summery Dr Farsalinos concludes that NETs are "orders of magnitude" less harmful than smoking cigarettes. A new study verifies that e-cigarettes are orders of magnitude safer than tobacco cigarettes Here's a link to the full text of the study Nicotine Levels and Presence of Selected Tobacco-Derived Toxins in Tobacco Flavoured Electronic Cigarette Refill Liquids

..........is following this method completely safe, since you pretty much leave out the gunk in the bottom of the container when u freeze steep it, and then afterwards filter it and leave the gunk in the bottom of the container?

Nothing is completely safe. Making and vaping NET is without doubt "orders of Magnitude" safer than smoking but that doesn't mean that it's 100% safe. Not smoking or vaping would be the only 100% safe thing to do. The Royal Academy of Physicians in the UK says it best, vaping is likely 95% safe. Freeze filtering removes some of the unwanted constituents from an extract which improves both taste and performance. I wouldn't say it makes NET "safer" to vape because I've seen nothing credible that would indicate the things it removes are actually harmful.

2) can i use this method with any herbs?
chammomile, sage, cinnamon, etc?

Quite likely but until someone successfully does and posts the results we won't know for sure. Some herbs may extract well while others may not. Vanilla beans extract extremely well but vaping juice made from the extract is somewhat disappointing, much of the flavor doesn't translate well into vapor. This method of extraction is very similar to how herbalists make tinctures...

3) can i do this method, and then vaporate out almost all of the alchohol, then afterwards add it into 100% vg, for vaping?

Absolutely.

4) if i did this with tobbaco, would it also retain nicotine, or just flavor?

Mainly just flavor, the extraction process does leach some nicotine from the tobacco but by the time you mix the extract into NET there will be only trace amounts present unless you add it in (liquid nic).

 

[Str8vision]

No, My 1st ever extraction was using heated VG but all subsequent ones have been cold PG.
Also, My finished juices are 70PG/30VG now (& My Nic is VG..) so I'm quite near the limit re. the amount of VG I can 'fit in' to the calculator!
What does the 10% VG 'bring to the mix' then?

My best PG based extracts were made using a PG/VG blended solvent. 85/15 PG/VG -if- I remember correctly used in a 6 month room temperature soak. A "touch" of VG seems to enhance the flavor extraction but too much impedes it.

 

[Simchaleh]

My first advise would be to scrutinize any information you read or hear about the "dangers" of vaping, most of it is unsubstantiated folklore created and repeated by people who lack any credentials/training/knowledge or understanding of what they're talking about. Your term "over paranoid" is spot on. It's also difficult to know which scientists/researchers to trust since many of them have an agenda driven by their source of funding. The only comprehensive scientific analysis of NET that I've found came from Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos and a group of scientists/researchers, in his summery Dr Farsalinos concludes that NETs are "orders of magnitude" less harmful than smoking cigarettes. A new study verifies that e-cigarettes are orders of magnitude safer than tobacco cigarettes Here's a link to the full text of the study Nicotine Levels and Presence of Selected Tobacco-Derived Toxins in Tobacco Flavoured Electronic Cigarette Refill Liquids




Nothing is completely safe. Making and vaping NET is without doubt "orders of Magnitude" safer than smoking but that doesn't mean that it's 100% safe. Not smoking or vaping would be the only 100% safe thing to do. The Royal Academy of Physicians in the UK says it best, vaping is likely 95% safe. Freeze filtering removes some of the unwanted constituents from an extract which improves both taste and performance. I wouldn't say it makes NET "safer" to vape because I've seen nothing credible that would indicate the things it removes are actually harmful.




Quite likely but until someone successfully does and posts the results we won't know for sure. Some herbs may extract well while others may not. Vanilla beans extract extremely well but vaping juice made from the extract is somewhat disappointing, much of the flavor doesn't translate well into vapor. This method of extraction is very similar to how herbalists make tinctures...




Absolutely.




Mainly just flavor, the extraction process does leach some nicotine from the tobacco but by the time you mix the extract into NET there will be only trace amounts present unless you add it in (liquid nic).

Wow thnks for such a comprehensive reply!

So is there a large educated opinion which says like what you're saying to the ludicrousness of the claims that the waxes and oils get inhaled into the lungs, which don't have a way of expelling them, and gets stuck in the lungs which could then cause lipid pnemonia, is really unproven and just theoretical even though so many people talk about it?
It's really scary just being new at this and doing research. Because I know from experience in so many other fields in life how people say about things that are actually safe, that they're dangerous. And the same people blindly do dangerous things which the world claims are safe. how people are so easily brain washed with so much Information which we take as true without questioning it, and things which are not actually proven can just be come accepted as fact on the other hand, if their claims might be true, then even though it's still safer than. Smoking cigarettes, I would still rather play it safe and buy professionally lab made organic vape juice, if there's a possibility that it's safer to vape Than homemade liquid.
On the other hand. I really wonder if it's such an issue. I love making my own herbal tinctures and extracts, and was really hoping I could take it into my vaping hobby, without needing to become a chemist, and using just VG and ethanol.

 

[happy valley]

My first advise would be to scrutinize any information you read or hear about the "dangers" of vaping, most of it is unsubstantiated folklore created and repeated by people who lack any credentials/training/knowledge or understanding of what they're talking about. Your term "over paranoid" is spot on. It's also difficult to know which scientists/researchers to trust since many of them have an agenda driven by their source of funding. The only comprehensive scientific analysis of NET that I've found came from Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos and a group of scientists/researchers, in his summery Dr Farsalinos concludes that NETs are "orders of magnitude" less harmful than smoking cigarettes. A new study verifies that e-cigarettes are orders of magnitude safer than tobacco cigarettes Here's a link to the full text of the study Nicotine Levels and Presence of Selected Tobacco-Derived Toxins in Tobacco Flavoured Electronic Cigarette Refill Liquids


Simchaleh said: ↑
..........is following this method completely safe, since you pretty much leave out the gunk in the bottom of the container when u freeze steep it, and then afterwards filter it and leave the gunk in the bottom of the container?
Nothing is completely safe. Making and vaping NET is without doubt "orders of Magnitude" safer than smoking but that doesn't mean that it's 100% safe. Not smoking or vaping would be the only 100% safe thing to do. The Royal Academy of Physicians in the UK says it best, vaping is likely 95% safe. Freeze filtering removes some of the unwanted constituents from an extract which improves both taste and performance. I wouldn't say it makes NET "safer" to vape because I've seen nothing credible that would indicate the things it removes are actually harmful.


Simchaleh said: ↑
2) can i use this method with any herbs?
chammomile, sage, cinnamon, etc?
Quite likely but until someone successfully does and posts the results we won't know for sure. Some herbs may extract well while others may not. Vanilla beans extract extremely well but vaping juice made from the extract is somewhat disappointing, much of the flavor doesn't translate well into vapor. This method of extraction is very similar to how herbalists make tinctures...


Simchaleh said: ↑
3) can i do this method, and then vaporate out almost all of the alchohol, then afterwards add it into 100% vg, for vaping?
Absolutely.


Simchaleh said: ↑
4) if i did this with tobbaco, would it also retain nicotine, or just flavor?
Mainly just flavor, the extraction process does leach some nicotine from the tobacco but by the time you mix the extract into NET there will be only trace amounts present unless you add it in (liquid nic)

Seeking a better way to express thanks to a person for their patience, willingness to share knowledge and good natured camaraderie than clicking a 'like' button, I'll just say tip o' the cap to you friend.

 

[Simchaleh]

Seeking a better way to express thanks to a person for their patience, willingness to share knowledge and good natured camaraderie than clicking a 'like' button, I'll just say tip o' the cap to you friend.

I wish there was some emoji which expressed what u just wrote. But there isn't. That's what's so beautiful about it.

 

[Str8vision]

..........So is there a large educated opinion which says like what you're saying to the ludicrousness of the claims that the waxes and oils get inhaled into the lungs, which don't have a way of expelling them, and gets stuck in the lungs which could then cause lipid pnemonia, is really unproven and just theoretical even though so many people talk about it?

I find group hysteria/paranoia amusing but not necessarily relevant, accurate or informational. Like people inferring the amount of Diatecyl in some e-liquids can somehow cause Popcorn Lung or other ill effects, it's a totally baseless claim. I don't consider facebook, twitter or any other social forum as a legitimate research source when it comes to health/safety/science. Same is true when public opinion holds something isn't harmful, just because a large group of people "think" or "believe" something is safe, doesn't make their assumption any more true or real. Fact is there hasn't been a single documented cases of lipid pneumonia, Popcorn Lung or other illness directly associated with people vaping. The only unbiased, "educated" opinions I've seen indicates vaping is "orders of magnitude" safer than smoking...

Until there is cause and effect or credible unbiased scientific research linking specific compounds with inhalation health risks, I simply follow my own personal beliefs/assumptions. In my case I prefer to avoid as many chemical compounds as possible. I'm more comfortable vaping organic extracts than I am synthetic flavorings. When it comes to inhalation hazards and potential health risks I seek out expert educated opinion and so go to the CDC's NIOSH website, they have a searchable database. Type in a chemical compound (like Diatecyl) and hit search. The results explain exposure risks, health hazards and lists acceptable exposure limits (PELs). If your exposure is within the established PEL, you're likely safe. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...t.html&usg=AFQjCNEqWCLsPFPbeMUDFKqqF3Az8e857g

.....It's really scary just being new at this and doing research. Because I know from experience in so many other fields in life how people say about things that are actually safe, that they're dangerous. And the same people blindly do dangerous things which the world claims are safe. how people are so easily brain washed with so much Information which we take as true without questioning it, and things which are not actually proven can just be come accepted as fact on the other hand, if their claims might be true, then even though it's still safer than. Smoking cigarettes, I would still rather play it safe and buy professionally lab made organic vape juice, if there's a possibility that it's safer to vape Than homemade liquid.
On the other hand. I really wonder if it's such an issue. I love making my own herbal tinctures and extracts, and was really hoping I could take it into my vaping hobby, without needing to become a chemist, and using just VG and ethanol.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with being cautious but it's best to keep things in proper perspective. Even when vaping a juice saturated with diatecyl, acetoin, acetylpropionyl, oils, waxes etc.. vaping is so much safer than smoking tobacco there is no comparison. As far as public opinion goes, Tommy Lee Jones said it best in the movie Men In Black; "A person is smart but people are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it!". While meant to be funny in my experience it's an accurate assessment. Concerning juice that is commercially made, I personally doubt it's any safer than what a person can make for themselves. Most purity claims made by vendors is just marketing hype. When I make juice I know what's in it, can't say the same for the retail e-liquids I buy but again you must keep things in perspective. Rather you make it yourself or buy retail it's far, far better than smoking. Do whatever makes -you- most comfortable.

 

[Brad P]

OK, I am just going to jump in here to report that I am in the process of doing my very first tobacco extraction using the heated ethanol method! Thanks to Str8, and to everyone who has contributed to this thread. It is very inspiring. I have been a long time "lurker" around here, and have wanted to try this for quite a while. Well, I finally got a hold of some 95% PGA. (190 proof Everclear)
I should probably mention that this is not my first attempt at NETS. In the past, I have done several extractions using PG; both hot and cold processes. I was really very happy with the results that I got. I thoroughly enjoy the true tobacco flavors that I could not seem to find with the synthetic flavors that I had tried. However, "coil gunk" and constantly having to burn off the coils and re-wick, starts to get monotonous. That is why I was excited to hear about this technique, the freeze filtration, and the cleaner extracts that result from this process.
Alright, here is what I've done to this point. I started out with a 1/2 pint mason jar. I filled it 75-80% with tobacco. I fluffed it up first, then gently filled the jar. Not too tight-not too loose. I topped it off with PGA to the bottom of the neck of the jar.(~3/16" above tobacco) I gently covered the jar and put it into the crock pot water-bath. I shot for a temp. of 160 F.. I was able to keep it above 150 & below 170. I ended up heating it for about 19-20 hrs. total. - over two days. I let it cool and filtered off the tobacco. At this point I noticed that it was a little cloudy. After leaving it undisturbed in the freezer for 36 hrs., I carefully poured the frozen extract through a fluted filter into another clean 1/2 pint jar. I probably left about 3-4 ml. in the bottom of the jar with the rest of the gunk that had settled out of the solution.
Here are my impressions;
The extract was a crystal clear, medium amber color. I was absolutely stunned & amazed by how much residue ended up not only in the filter, but stuck to the sides of the frozen jar!!! That's what is clogging my coils!! At this point I think I am going to let this sit and age for 6 or 8 days. I will probably filter it again, then start an open jar-fan assisted- evaporation reduction. I'm thinking, 20-30% of the original volume.
I am anxious to see how the finished product turns out!
This has been a pretty exciting adventure for me so far. I have learned that PGA is easier to work with, Freeze filtering w/ PGA is faster and more efficient, and this process is certainly faster than a room temp- cold maceration. Not to mention a cleaner end product.
Thanks again to everyone who has contributed to this body of knowledge! You may never know how many folks (and "lurkers" like myself) you have inspired.

NOTE:
This post is just meant to show how I approached my first ethanol extraction. If it helps you, great!

 

[kbriggs]

then start an open jar-fan assisted- evaporation reduction. I'm thinking, 20-30% of the original volume.

What I've been doing lately is after the freeze filtering stage is to add PG to increase the PGA mix weight by 15%. Then I fan evaporate it to the point where it won't reduce anymore, weighing it every so often. This essentially removes 95% of the PGA without any risk of over-reducing and I'm left with a highly reduced PG extract, which I mix at around 7 or 8 percent.

 

[Brad P]

I kind'a like that idea kbriggs. I am not sure that I really want to vape PGA. @7-8% (which is probably a good starting point for me too) the PGA may not be a real issue for me. I hear that it is not for some. I don't currently have a good way to accurately weigh it. I suppose I could just wing it, but I will probably try reducing my original extraction down to 25% of what I started with. If I really don't care for that, I may still have the option to try the PG/PGA mix and evaporate as much of the PGA as I can.
Did I read somewhere here that someone was having some issues with their extract getting "lumpy" while trying to convert from a PGA to a PG extract base?
OH, wait, I see what you are saying now! You add the PG into your extract before you do any reduction. That probably insures that the PG is well incorporated into the whole PGA extract. That would likely reduce the chances of ending up with a "lumpy" extract.
Thanks for the suggestion. I've still got a few days, I might like to think about that...

 

[kbriggs]

I don't currently have a good way to accurately weigh it.

You definitely should get a scale for DIY ejuice, preferable with a 0.01 g resolution for the final mixing. Although 0.1g is plenty good for the NET extraction phase.

I suppose I could just wing it, but I will probably try reducing my original extraction down to 25% of what I started with.

I like to aim for 15 to 20. But if you leave it unattended long enough it will all evaporate and you'll just be left with solid material in the jar.

OH, wait, I see what you are saying now! You add the PG into your extract before you do any reduction.

Correct. The main purpose is so that I can leave it unattended and not worry about over-reducing down to dry material, which I've done before. Depending on the humidity, it can take anywhere from 10 to 30 hours if you reduce at room temperature.

 

[Brad P]

Yes. The thought of getting a scale has crossed my mind a few times in the recent past. I think many calculators will work in grams as well as mls.. It might also simplify my routine juice making. I could stash away most of those syringes that I have been using to measure and cut my clean-up time. Not to mention that it is probably more accurate. Not proud to say that, (as far as a new scale goes) there is a little cash flow problem right now, but I may just have to work on trying to justify this expenditure a little sooner than later.
After freeze filtering, I was left with about 170 ml. of PGA extract. 15% of that volume equals about 25.5 mls..
If I were to mix 25.5mls. of P/G to the 170 mls. PGA, then I could probably "air" reduce (or evaporate) this mixture down to a volume of say... 28-35 mls. and call that my final concentrated extract.
I understand that this is by volume and not by weight,
but hey, sometimes ya gotta work with what ya got. I think that this will eliminate the chances of over- reduction, puts my extract into a mostly P/G base, and still gives me all of the benefits of freeze filtration!
How does that sound for a plan of attack? I am open to any and all input anyone out there might have!
Thanks I'll keep you posted.

 

[kbriggs]

I think many calculators will work in grams

Yes, I use this one (Windows app): Juice Calculator

I understand that this is by volume and not by weight

You can always make adjustments in your final mixing percentage anyway. Just keep notes so that once you nail the best one you can reproduce it later.

How does that sound for a plan of attack?

Go for it. I've got over 150 bottles of artificial flavoring that I never use any more since discovering this thread about a year ago. I'm "nothing but NET" now.

 

[gt_1955]

Yes. The thought of getting a scale has crossed my mind a few times in the recent past. I think many calculators will work in grams as well as mls.. It might also simplify my routine juice making. I could stash away most of those syringes that I have been using to measure and cut my clean-up time. Not to mention that it is probably more accurate. Not proud to say that, (as far as a new scale goes) there is a little cash flow problem right now, but I may just have to work on trying to justify this expenditure a little sooner than later.
After freeze filtering, I was left with about 170 ml. of PGA extract. 15% of that volume equals about 25.5 mls..
If I were to mix 25.5mls. of P/G to the 170 mls. PGA, then I could probably "air" reduce (or evaporate) this mixture down to a volume of say... 28-35 mls. and call that my final concentrated extract.
I understand that this is by volume and not by weight,
but hey, sometimes ya gotta work with what ya got. I think that this will eliminate the chances of over- reduction, puts my extract into a mostly P/G base, and still gives me all of the benefits of freeze filtration!
How does that sound for a plan of attack? I am open to any and all input anyone out there might have!
Thanks I'll keep you posted.

If you add PG to your PGA extract, don't evaporate the PGA for a few days, giving the flavour enough time to transfer to the PG. I've done this, and it works well. I'd also only do it with say 10% of your extract, just to verify the method before committing all your extract.

 

[Brad P]

kbriggs,
I have been using the e-juice me up calculator in the past. I came across the juice calculator you referred to and downloaded it earlier today, as a matter of fact! Although it looks like a powerful tool, it appears that there may be some sort of a learning curve involved in getting used to the software. I'm still figuring it all out and setting it up, but I think I'm going to like it! It looks like I will have more room to keep better records with this software too.
I never found any synthetic tobacco that I liked!
"Nothin' but NETs"

gt_1955,
Wow, the other side of the world! (still amazes me sometimes) I really like your idea of mixing the two together and then letting the flavors"mary" for a few days prior to evaporating. That had not occurred to me but it really makes a lot of sense!
I may split the batch in half, but I am fairly confident that this will work.
Thanks for the input.

 

[gt_1955]

I just went back through the thread a bit ... that "few days" I referred to above is actually around 30 days, and I think the credit goes to @Str8vision (although I didn't find the original post that mentioned it).

 

[Boxster]

Yes. The thought of getting a scale has crossed my mind a few times in the recent past. I think many calculators will work in grams as well as mls.. It might also simplify my routine juice making. I could stash away most of those syringes that I have been using to measure and cut my clean-up time. Not to mention that it is probably more accurate. Not proud to say that, (as far as a new scale goes) there is a little cash flow problem right now, but I may just have to work on trying to justify this expenditure a little sooner than later.
After freeze filtering, I was left with about 170 ml. of PGA extract. 15% of that volume equals about 25.5 mls..
If I were to mix 25.5mls. of P/G to the 170 mls. PGA, then I could probably "air" reduce (or evaporate) this mixture down to a volume of say... 28-35 mls. and call that my final concentrated extract.
I understand that this is by volume and not by weight,
but hey, sometimes ya gotta work with what ya got. I think that this will eliminate the chances of over- reduction, puts my extract into a mostly P/G base, and still gives me all of the benefits of freeze filtration!
How does that sound for a plan of attack? I am open to any and all input anyone out there might have!
Thanks I'll keep you posted.

You can get a scale rather cheap.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01DGEWHN4?psc=1

You can get a calibration weight (~$9.00) at a later date. I've only used mine once in three years, out of curiosity of the calibration process. If the scale is off a few hundreds it's not anything you will notice in a mixed juice. If your weighing diamonds, then sure get the calibration weight.

I believe the lumps you are referring to are oils that will coalesce during the reduction phase. Most of this will stick to the sides and bottom of the jar or be trapped during the final filtration stage. We are probably losing some flavor by the removal of those oils, but removing them is better on your coils, and lungs for that matter.

I try to reduce as much as possible (~ 85%) before adding any PG/VG, because reducing after adding will take longer and will make removing the oils more difficult if not impossible.