FDA Tomorrow's FDA workshop on Biomarkers of Tobacco Exposure to focus on e-cigs

[AndriaD]

I should have been clearer - lots of people given medical opiates DO go on to be dependent, especially if they're prescribed in a home setting.

Sadly, the "associative cue-response" aspect of addictive drugs is not understood by most prescribers. I think almost all smokers understand it, intuitively at least - "coffee and cigarettes", "post-coital cigarettes" etc etc

Yes indeed... sometimes at sundown... my stupid brain STILL pines for a beer, almost 23 yrs without one. There's just something about that time of day... and all those Happy Hours I attended...

And recently I was such in a foul mood from a long tiring horrible day, I was yelling and kicking stuff and said I WANT A DRINK! Fortunately my husband knew I was talking out of my nethermost orifice. He's my travelling 24-hr AA meeting, since he's recovering too.

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

Andria, have you ever read this?
Nicotine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In fact I've paraphrased it on my website -- Angry Vaper - About WTA

Someone here was arguing with me about whether there are MAOIs in WTA... I think there are; I've suffered ZERO depression, since starting on the WTA, but my first time around, last spring, I suffered depression for about a week at both the 3wk and 3mo points in being smoke-free. Recently someone else here confirmed that MAOIs are in fact alkaloids, so it stands to reason that 'WHOLE tobacco alkaloids' would contain them.

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

I am presuming that the "24mg" is 24mg/ml

And that this 24mg/ml is Independent of the Nicotine Level. Correct?

No... it's 24mg of the whole tobacco alkaloids, of which, 95% is nicotine -- you can extrapolate the exact mg from that percentage of 24mg WTA.

Andria

 

[DC2]

Sadly, the "associative cue-response" aspect of addictive drugs is not understood by most prescribers. I think almost all smokers understand it, intuitively at least - "coffee and cigarettes", "post-coital cigarettes" etc etc

I never had any of those "cues" cause me to want a cigarette.

My cues were more like...
"this person is starting to annoy me"
"this discussion is making me uncomfortable"
"I just woke up and I'm not ready to face the world yet"
"I'm not getting anywhere trying to figure this thing out"
"okay, I'm really starting to get frustrated"
"there is alcohol in my system"

For the most part cigarettes were just a way for me to get away for about 10 minutes.
From whatever.

But for some of those things...
I would certainly imagine that a little tobacco alkaloids didn't hurt either.
Nicotine being just one of them.

 

[AndriaD]

Agreed.

BTW - Played a Nasty Trick on someone awhile back. They were having a Hard Time switching from a PAD+ 20 Year Habit and approached me for thoughts on WTA.

I told them that I had tried it, but Hadn't seen any Difference between WTA and Non-WTA e-Liquids. But that some people Swear by it. And if She Wanted the Bottle of WTA I had, I would give it Her. She Said that would be Great.

Unfortunately, when I pulled out the Bottle, it was Empty.

So I Made a Batch of 50:50 36mg/ml Unflavored and put it in the WTA Bottle. I then told here to Add 5 ~ 10 Drops of the "WTA" to Her Regular e-Liquid. And to Let me know how it worked for Her.

(I Know. I Know. It was a Sneaky Thing to do. Don't Judge Me. - LOL)

I got an e-Mail from Her about a week Later and She was Thrilled with How Well the "WTA" Worked. That her Cravings had Greatly Diminished. And that She was now Smoke Free for 5 Days!

She did make a Successful Switch after One Small Slip. And Today She is has been Smoke Free for about a Year.

I'm by No Means saying that WTA's can not have an Effect on some People. But in my Friends case, Her Belief in it Can Work seemed to play a Major Role in Reducing Cravings using the "WTA" I provided to Her.

That's because WTA will only work if the craving is actually physical; for mental symptoms of withdrawal, WTA will do NOTHING.

Andria

 

[DC2]

Do you believe that the "Placebo Effect" can also play a role in the Reduction of Cravings when some people use an e-Liquid that contain WTA's?

All this talk about WTA reminded me that I might want to use some right about now.

Both work and the situation with my father's health have been very stressful lately.
But I had kinda forgot all about my WTA liquid.

I have been kind of on edge and my stomach has been tied in knots.

So I just broke out some WTA and it seems to have taken the edge off somewhat.
But my stomach still feels a bit knotted up.
:shrug:

 

[nicnik]

I'm by No Means saying that WTA's can not have an Effect on some People. But in my Friends case, Her Belief in it Can Work seemed to play a Major Role in Reducing Cravings using the "WTA" I provided to Her

Key words: "seemed to". More related to stinky trash than science. You asked not to be judged, but I'm sorry, this upsets me just to read it. Sneaky, yes, but a lot worse, too. Maybe you think it was a success, but you might be blinded to accompanying negative consequences.

 

[zoiDman]

That's because WTA will only work if the craving is actually physical; for mental symptoms of withdrawal, WTA will do NOTHING.

Andria

I dunno?

I don't know what is Actually in a Bottle when someone say's it is WTA. Or what Levels of this or What Levels of that are present.

All I know is that it seems to Work for Some People. And it Doesn't seem to work for Others. And for the Person who I gave Placebo "WTA", it seemed to Work Great.

Guess an if an Individual is Curious, than the ONLY way for them to know if it has An Effect would be for them to try it.

And if that Effect is Positive, or if it Helps them to Switch, than that is All that Matters.

 

[AndriaD]

Key words: "seemed to". More related to stinky trash than science. You asked not to be judged, but I'm sorry, this upsets me just to read it. Sneaky, yes, but a lot worse, too. Maybe you think it was a success, but you might be blinded to accompanying negative consequences.

I would call it cruel in the extreme. Somewhat like giving someone a placebo antibiotic, and they get well. Because human bodies DO get well without assistance in many cases (there are no antibiotics for viruses, after all); that doesn't make it right to give someone a placebo and then call it success when they get well anyway.

That's what I meant though, about WTA only *actually* working when the craving, the need, is actually physical. Obviously in her case, it wasn't, or that placebo wouldn't have worked. I was literally vaping my face off last summer, and cravings had me ON THE FLOOR. so I started smoking again. When I quit again, a month later, for 10 days i was fine -- then the cravings came back, JUST AS BAD, even though I was once again vaping my face off. When I added the WTA, the cravings completely vanished.

Andria

 

[zoiDman]

Key words: "seemed to". More related to stinky trash than science. You asked not to be judged, but I'm sorry, this upsets me just to read it. Sneaky, yes, but a lot worse, too. Maybe you think it was a success, but you might be blinded to accompanying negative consequences.

She Got Off Cigarettes after having No Luck with Anything Else. It Don't Cost Her a Penny. And She is Happy.

Guess I Am binded to the "accompanying negative consequences".

 

[nicnik]

Obviously in her case, it wasn't, or that placebo wouldn't have worked.

I wouldn't go so far as making that assumption, but I say "WELL SAID!" to the rest of you analysis.

 

[Bill Godshall]

Well, this may well be what they're thinking: A Glimpse into the Regulatory Future of Vaping | Vaping.com

FYI, I sat on a panel discussion with Dorothy Hatsukami and Eric Lindblom. It's quite clear to me that the overall desire on their part is for the FDA to be very light touch on e-cigs, while enacting the authority they have to reduce nicotine in smoked tobacco.

The idea being that cigarettes will become less addictive (leading to fewer new smokers), and those smokers who want or need nicotine will migrate to vaping.

As one who has known Dorothy Hatsukami and Eric Lindblom for more than 15 years (during which both staunchly opposed smokeless tobacco and e-cigs as THR alternatives to cigarettes, and who both repeatedly urged Congress to enact the FSPTCA legislation from 2004-2009), I strongly disagree with SmokeyJoe's assertion that "It's quite clear to me that the overall desire on their part is for the FDA to be very light touch on e-cigs".

Both Hatsukami and Lindblom supported FDA's unlawful e-cig ban in 2009, and both have advocated the FDA's proposed deeming regulation (which would ban >99.9% of all nicotine vapor products).

Anyone who says they support the deeming regulation, while claiming or implying that FDA won't or shouldn't enforce the FDA's proposed 2007 grandfather date and PMTA mandate (which would ban e-cigs), is either disingenuous or clueless (as a lawsuit filed by an ANTZ could force FDA to enforce those provisions).

Besides, although FDA has lots of enforcement discretion (unless a court rules otherwise), agency officials would not have spent 6 years lying about e-cigs and 4 years lobbying for the deeming regulation (if they didn't plan to enforce the regulation).

Besides, if Hatsukami or Lindblom truly didn't desire the FDA to enforce the e-cig ban in the deeming regulation, they would never have endorsed the proposed regulation.

 

[AndriaD]

I wouldn't go so far as making that assumption, but I say "WELL SAID!" to the rest of you analysis.

Well, I was vaping all the nicotine my body can tolerate, and it wasn't helping the cravings one iota, even though I actively DID NOT WANT to smoke. Just giving me more nicotine and calling it WTA would have made no difference -- I was doing everything I could possibly do to avoid smoking again, because i really DID NOT want to -- I KNEW it was a very bad choice, but with that kind of craving, if I wanted the suffering to stop, I had to do something. So I smoked. I meant it to be a week or two, but it turned into a month, and that was one reason I really hadn't wanted to start again, I KNEW it would get its hooks back in. But I finally managed to quit again, and was feeling GREAT! about it! THRILLED to be smoke-free again! And after 10 days of that sheer delight... NEGATIVE interest in smoking... those wretched cravings came back, just as bad -- but I had acquired some WTA during my smoke-break, so rather than smoking again, I added the WTA... and got the exact same relief.

Andria

 

[nicnik]

I added the WTA... and got the exact same relief.

I don't need it, but I think I want to try WTA. I don't like what I hear about how hard it is on atomizers, or the expense, and I don't want more alkaloids, etc. than I need, but there are good reasons for me to at least experience what effects it might have on me.

 

[AndriaD]

I don't need it, but I think I want to try WTA. I don't like what I hear about how hard it is on atomizers, or the expense, and I don't want more alkaloids, etc. than I need, but there are good reasons for me to at least experience what effects it might have on me.

Hmm.. it's really not that bad on atomizers, if the ejuice you add it to is the "clean" sort (non-gunking). The expense isn't even that bad, since you add it to your regular vape; when I first started, at 10% of my juice, a 10ml bottle lasted about a month. Now that I'm at <3%, a 15ml bottles lasts quite a while.

The only real caution I can think of, is that with WTA, physical addiction is still very much present; lots around here, who vape plain nicotine, say they can go hours and hours without a vape with no trouble, but that is very much not the case with me. I don't "chainvape," at least not more than 2-3 hits, but between those 2-3 and the next 2-3 is never more than 10-20 minutes, even when I'm busy; more usually, it's about 3-5 mins between. I don't leave the house without it; if I'm going to be gone more than an hour, I generally take a 2nd fully-equipped rig with me, just in case of feces occurring.

And, I think there is some level of those tobacco nitrosamines in WTA, which aren't present in highly-refined plain nicotine.

Andria

 

[nicnik]

And, I think there is some level of those tobacco nitrosamines in WTA, which aren't present in highly-refined plain nicotine.

Yeah, another reason I only want to try it, not use it regularly. I don't want the nitrosamines. I'm not worried about getting addicted to WTA. I'd be careful, and if it did happen, I know vaping what I vape now would get me off of it, pretty easily, likely more easily than vaping got me off of smoking. Especially now that I have gotten used to something a bit bigger than the eroll that ended my smoking, back when even that eroll felt too big.

We're on the wrong thread for this, I guess, but I'm glad this came up.

 

[AndriaD]

Yeah, another reason I only want to try it, not use it regularly. I don't want the nitrosamines. I'm not worried about getting addicted to WTA. I'd be careful, and if it did happen, I know vaping what I vape now would get me off of it, pretty easily, likely more easily than vaping got me off of smoking. Especially now that I have gotten used to something a bit bigger than the eroll that ended my smoking, back when even that eroll felt too big.

We're on the wrong thread for this, I guess, but I'm glad this came up.

I was dropping one percentage point monthly... but when I got to 4% then tried to drop to 3%, I noticed that i was suddenly having a lot more thoughts about smoking -- not cravings, just thoughts, but I don't want even the thoughts of it. So I backed up to 3.5% and did that for 2 wks before trying 3% again, and that was helpful. Since I just dropped from 3%, I went to 2.75%, made a 40ml bottle; when that's gone, I'll make a 40ml of 2.5%, and so on... It might take me into October instead of being done by the end of September, but I'd rather do it slowly and not have those thoughts, because i sure don't want anymore of those awful full-on cravings.

Andria

 

[nicnik]

She Got Off Cigarettes . It Don't Cost Her a Penny. And She is Happy.

Guess I Am binded to the "accompanying negative consequences".

I don't like to be too judgemental, and maybe I went a bit too far with my response, but I think you're viewing it too narrowly.

"She got off cigarettes" - maybe not if she's being as honest as you are being in the exchange. I don't have much business judging how your friendship with her works, especially based on so little information, just throwing that out there as a "you don't know".

"after having No Luck with Anything Else" - Sounds like she very well might've succeeded soon, seeing as how it wasn't WTA that did it.

"It Don't Cost Her a Penny. " - You've likely added a lot of expense to her vaping, if she now believes she needs WTA to keep from smoking.

"And She is Happy." - As in 'what you don't know won't hurt you'?

She is now misinformed, is likely to spread that misinformation, and if she has any relapses or is on the verge of a relapse, she might be looking in the wrong places for help.

Keep in mind, that she might've felt grateful for your help, and that support might've been more what helped, but it certainly would make it a further stretch to make assumptions about the success of the placebo effect, seeing as she could consciously or unconciously feel obligated to succeed.

ETA: If you haven't told her yet, I hope you will.

 

[zoiDman]

I don't like to be too judgemental, and maybe I went a bit too far with my response, but I think you're viewing it too narrowly.

"She got off cigarettes" - maybe not if she's being as honest as you are being in the exchange. I don't have much business judging how your friendship with her works, especially based on so little information, just throwing that out there as a "you don't know".

"after having No Luck with Anything Else" - Sounds like she very well might've succeeded soon, seeing as how it wasn't WTA that did it.

"It Don't Cost Her a Penny. " - You've likely added a lot of expense to her vaping, if she now believes she needs WTA to keep from smoking.

"And She is Happy." - As in 'what you don't know won't hurt you'?

She is now misinformed, is likely to spread that misinformation, and if she has any relapses or is on the verge of a relapse, she might be looking in the wrong places for help.

Keep in mind, that she might've felt grateful for your help, and that support might've been more what helped, but it certainly would make it a further stretch to make assumptions about the success of the placebo effect, seeing as she could consciously or unconciously feel obligated to succeed.

I'm Sorry nicnik. But in this case, I believe that I Understand Her a Little Better than you do.

Seeing that I have known Her for over 30 Years (all of Her Adult Life). Speak with Her on a Regular Basis. Have Close Ties to members of Her Family. Heck, we might have even Lived together for a number of Years. But I tend to Block Out some parts of Our Relationship so I won't comment on that portion.

She used Her Bottle of "WTA" and has Never purchase another one. Because when it was gone, so were the Cravings. They had ended before Her "WTA" ran out.

And She tells people the Same Thing I tell People when They Ask. That It seems to work for Some. And it Doesn't work for Others. Only way to know for You is to Try It.

She Also knows that what I gave Her had No WTA in it. Because Once I saw that She was Stable, and I saw that it was Highly Unlikely that She would start Smoking Again after 8 Months or so, I told her what I did. She Actually got a Big Kick out of it.

If this All Upsets You, or if you want to see it as Cruel, that's Fine.

But at the Time when She was Trying to Quit, She was at the End of the Road. And was Ready to Give Up on e-Cigarettes. What She Needed was Something to Believe In. Something Tangible. Something that She could Hold in Her Hand.

I merely gave Her that "Something".

 

[nicnik]

I'm Sorry nicnik. But in this case, I believe that I Understand Her a Little Better than you do.

Absolutely. And you know yourself better. I'm glad you told her. That helps a lot.

Here are some quotes from you in this discussion:

"Played a Nasty Trick on someone awhile back."

You recognize at least part of what I've been saying.

(I Know. I Know. It was a Sneaky Thing to do. Don't Judge Me. - LOL)

I have a low tolerance for 'ends justifying means'. Some of what I've dumped on you is my sensitivity to it. I'm uncomfortable with your laughter, but I guess it's nervous laughter, like an aknowledgement. Also uncomfortable with how you left out that important info - that you told her later. Not sure you fully appreciate problems with 'ends justifying means', seeing as how you would leave out that fact.

"And for the Person who I gave Placebo "WTA", it seemed to Work Great."

I still have a problem with this, though. It came in the middle of a discussion about how much placebo effect is responsible for WTA's reputation.

"But in my Friends case, Her Belief in it Can Work seemed to play a Major Role in Reducing Cravings using the "WTA" I provided to Her."

For reasons, I've already pointed out, this is not the most valid data to add.

Anyway, sorry. I do realize my reaction was a bit much.