Read this! Tuesday: Halo start first lawsuit against FDA, Debate in the UK House of Lords

[Kent C]

The death by second hand smoke is a ....... well a smoke screen. I know I will get an argument but there are statistics that bear this out.

Second hand smoke is a myth created to make smoking "harmful" to others, because the gov't has no Constitutional authority to stop people from harming themselves, (I know the gov't does that, but it has no authority to do so), but only when they harm others, can the gov't intervene.

The original EPA meta-study (1990's) that created second hand smoke harm was fudged, and proved to be so in court. Challenged in court where the EPA lost, but that didn't stop the black PR that followed, where all of those people who never looked into it, tended to believe it because it came from the gov't.

Even "smoking related deaths" from smoking are highly exaggerated, but some have credence. Second hand smoke "deaths" are lies.

 

[Robino1]

Even "smoking related deaths" from smoking are highly exaggerated, but some have credence.

Absolutely. Some do have credence. Most do not. My stepmom just passed away and it Was from smoking. The emphysema she passed away from may or may not have started from smoking but since she never stopped, even while on oxygen 24/7, it certainly made the disease progress faster.

She lived her life the way she wanted to. That is all we can ask for ourselves. I am not angry at her. I am sad that she is gone... VERY sad. But she did what she wanted to even knowing the consequences. Like she said, she was going to die sometime, she might as well enjoy her life the way she wanted to.

She was 76. She had a good life. She was on oxygen for 3 years. I loved her more than my birth mother.

 

[Kent C]

Absolutely. Some do have credence. Most do not. My stepmom just passed away and it Was from smoking. The emphysema she passed away from may or may not have started from smoking but since she never stopped, even while on oxygen 24/7, it certainly made the disease progress faster.

She lived her life the way she wanted to. That is all we can ask for ourselves. I am not angry at her. I am sad that she is gone... VERY sad. But she did what she wanted to even knowing the consequences. Like she said, she was going to die sometime, she might as well enjoy her life the way she wanted to.

She was 76. She had a good life. She was on oxygen for 3 years. I loved her more than my birth mother.

I came to the same conclusions regarding my smoking - my choice, knowing the consequences fully. She's a 'sister' in that respect

The main problem with smoking related deaths is the 'standard' used - 100 cigarettes smoked. So you could have the case where a 13 or 14 year old 'experimented' with cigarettes and smoked that amount - 5 packs - and quit before they were 15. Yet, if at 98, they die of any of the smoking related illnesses (some of which are a stretch or have other primary causes), then the death is a "smoking related death". It's also the reason why the oft cited 480,000 deaths a year from smoking, is a total hoax, and frankly discredits anyone who uses it, even the THR crew.

 

[Robino1]

I came to the same conclusions regarding my smoking - my choice, knowing the consequences fully. She's a 'sister' in that respect

The main problem with smoking related deaths is the 'standard' used - 100 cigarettes smoked. So you could have the case where a 13 or 14 year old 'experimented' with cigarettes and smoked that amount - 5 packs - and quit before they were 15. Yet, if at 98, they die of any of the smoking related illnesses (some of which are a stretch or have other primary causes), then the death is a "smoking related death". It's also the reason why the oft cited 480,000 deaths a year from smoking, is a total hoax, and frankly discredits anyone who uses it, even the THR crew.

Funny how that number never changes....... Just food for thought.

 

[Kent C]

Funny how that number never changes....... Just food for thought.

Really. I did a search a while back with that in mind. Forget the exact numbers but that 450-480,000 number has been around for decades, while the number of adult smokers has dropped significantly. I'm sure they have an "explanation"

 

[Robino1]

Really. I did a search a while back with that in mind. Forget the exact numbers but that 450-480,000 number has been around for decades, while the number of adult smokers has dropped significantly. I'm sure they have an "explanation"

Their explanation would follow the lines of.... those are the ones that quit but smoked over 100 cigs. Once all those die, the number will start going down.....


Bets?

 

[Racehorse]

There is nothing in the tobacco control act that would give the FDA authority to limit shipping. Of course some other law could be created to limit shipping, but as of today that doesn't exist.

Not at the federal level. But there are state laws in place that DO limit / outlaw shipping.

Ecigs, eliquid, and all things ecig related are completely legal in the state of Arkansas.

Except, Asa Hutchinson and the rest of the republican legislators here passed a law last year that say eliquid purchases have to be face-to-face.

Regardless of what the FDA does or doesn't do, I can't see how it will change anything for vapers in states that have moved to this face-to-face idea.

There are any number of eliquid companies who have it posted on their site that they cannot ship to AR or TX or MA.

Because TX and MA require "adult signature" to receive the package and only UPS and FedEx offer this service. Or some other kind of age verification process.
How Texas Law SB97 Affects Online Business
Texas Passes SB 97 – New Regulations on E-Cigarettes | VaperVision

If you live in AR, eliquid companies just won't ship to you at all, because to do so puts them in violation of state laws.

Instead of contesting these laws vapor companies have just put up notices that they won't ship to you.

Even in the absence of notices, during the shopping cart checkout process, you are just "booted out" and the purchase will not go thru (spend plenty of time on phone over this stuff, since it is totally legal to send me batteries, but the shopping carts can't distingish between eliquid and batteries, so they just boot me out and I have to call the companies to place a MANUAL ORDER for hardware in many, many cases).

I've also lost tons of "reward points" that took me years to accumulate with these vendors.

Business as usual. Please give me a list of companies who have fought, brought lawsuits, or provided any kind of advocacy for vapers in these kinds of states with these kinds of laws. All that they've done for AR vapers is cut them off.

Now the same companies will make a big show of signing up for the FDA stuff, sort of like companies who try to increase sales by advertising "Fair Trade" policies, like with coffee beans. :rolls eyes:

Just figure out a way to turn (perceived or real) obstacles into a sales pitch so you can sell more stuff, right?


P.S. There is a contest now that if you write a letter to FDA and show it, you win ejuice. No announcements have ever been made on ECF by any vendor running a contest that they simply will not ship to me. In over a year. No announcements were ever made in the forums by anyone that vapers in AR best not even bother to enter any contests that involve eliquid, because it is against the law.

Thus, just another missed opportunity in bringing these kinds of things to LIGHT.

 

[DaveOno]

Ahh, facts and figures.

"The numbers are the numbers, but tell me what you want me to prove, and I'll find the numbers." (often said by my friend, the CPA)

 

[Stubby]

Not at the federal level. But there are state laws in place that DO limit / outlaw shipping.

Ecigs, eliquid, and all things ecig related are completely legal in the state of Arkansas.

Except, Asa Hutchinson and the rest of the republican legislators here passed a law last year that say eliquid purchases have to be face-to-face.

Regardless of what the FDA does or doesn't do, I can't see how it will change anything for vapers in states that have moved to this face-to-face idea.

There are any number of eliquid companies who have it posted on their site that they cannot ship to AR or TX or MA.

Because TX and MA require "adult signature" to receive the package and only UPS and FedEx offer this service. Or some other kind of age verification process.
How Texas Law SB97 Affects Online Business
Texas Passes SB 97 – New Regulations on E-Cigarettes | VaperVision

If you live in AR, eliquid companies just won't ship to you at all, because to do so puts them in violation of state laws.

Instead of contesting these laws vapor companies have just put up notices that they won't ship to you.

Even in the absence of notices, during the shopping cart checkout process, you are just "booted out" and the purchase will not go thru (spend plenty of time on phone over this stuff, since it is totally legal to send me batteries, but the shopping carts can't distingish between eliquid and batteries, so they just boot me out and I have to call the companies to place a MANUAL ORDER for hardware in many, many cases).

I've also lost tons of "reward points" that took me years to accumulate with these vendors.

Business as usual. Please give me a list of companies who have fought, brought lawsuits, or provided any kind of advocacy for vapers in these kinds of states with these kinds of laws. All that they've done for AR vapers is cut them off.

Now the same companies will make a big show of signing up for the FDA stuff, sort of like companies who try to increase sales by advertising "Fair Trade" policies, like with coffee beans. :rolls eyes:

Just figure out a way to turn (perceived or real) obstacles into a sales pitch so you can sell more stuff, right?


P.S. There is a contest now that if you write a letter to FDA and show it, you win ejuice. No announcements have ever been made on ECF by any vendor running a contest that they simply will not ship to me. In over a year. No announcements were ever made in the forums by anyone that vapers in AR best not even bother to enter any contests that involve eliquid, because it is against the law.

Thus, just another missed opportunity in bringing these kinds of things to LIGHT.

I have the exact same issue you are talking about in Wisconsin, though they haven't gotten around to vaping products as of yet. It is illegal for a vender to ship snus to Wisconsin, if (and this is the important part) that vender is based in the USA. That ties into the PACT act in that it is now illegal to ship via USPS regardless.

It is not illegal for a vender to ship to a customer if the vender is located outside the USA and uses UPS. It does require a confirmed adult signature (a note on this is that the adult signature may not be required for vaping products as they are not yet included in the PACT act, and you could still use USPS). There are actually quite a few states that have the same law for other tobacco products so some of us have been dealing with this for some time. It is not surprising that vaping products are being thrown into this in some states. We can expect more to follow.

In simple terms, what this means is that you can order any vaping products you want from overseas. A vender from the EU or China have no need or compulsion to follow state laws.

Welcome to the grey market.

 

[Robino1]

Another Lawsuit is filed:

Lost Art Liquids, LLC Files Lawsuit Against FDA

 

[Paradicio]

Another Lawsuit is filed:

Lost Art Liquids, LLC Files Lawsuit Against FDA

While I applaud their initiative, I cannot help but think their case might be a bit thin. While Halo is challenging the deeming regulations in a fairly logical manner (first amendment and all that), I cannot see "e cigarettes are a technology product, not a tobacco product" as an argument holding weight in court.

All of that said, I will be buying some Lost Art Liquid tomorrow.

 

[DaveOno]

This is interesting. The former head of the FDA, who created much of the deeming regs, is facing charges under the RICO Act. (Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations)
(I remember learning about RICO from my good friend, Tony Soprano...)

Ex-FDA Commissioner faces RICO charges, helped form e-cig regulations

 

[Jumpin' In...]

LOST ART LIQUIDS, LLC ("Lost Art Liquids"), producers of many of the most popular selling premium e-liquids sold in the United States and abroad...

Never heard of Lost Art Liquids until now...