EU UK regulation -- Discussion thread

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rothenbj

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Whilst I am grateful for your kind words, Perfectionist, I don't think you should be so hard on Kate.....

I've read some of the threads where that back and forth with Kate took place. The animosity between some of the posters was quite obvious,

I'm glad that you came forward and explained Kate's worth, in your view. She is at the outer edges of the continuum at times (maybe mostly). But continuing to kiss .... in a situation like this, normally ends up with contented adversaries while the kisser has brown on their face.

Kate may make them uncomfortable, but she's hard to ignore. Keep up the good fight,
 

Chrissie

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how to “win friends and influence people” :D

Sorry Perfy, but coming form you .... :lol::lol::lol::lol:

I do agree with everything you say about Katherine though, she is a fantastic asset to the vaping community. Thank you Katherine :thumbs:

However, I can't agree with your views on Kate, she has worked so hard to help fight for & promote vaping.
 

Perfectionist

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I do believe you're being "diplomatic" once again - you got skills babe !! ;)

Whilst I am grateful for your kind words, Perfectionist, I don't think you should be so hard on Kate. Without her, I wouldn't have had such a perfect platform from which to speak! She turned something which might have been a minor irritation to the opposition into an enormously effective vehicle for us to demonstrate our commitment to reasoned argument and co-operation - a total gift!
You've been around for a short while now so I sincerely hope this isn't the first time you've expressed these sentiments to the MHRA ...... if you really needed a "gift" like this to spur you in to action then I'm afraid you haven't been keeping your eye on the ball and are sorely neglecting your duties !!

Please tell me I'm wrong and that you've been actively and constantly communicating with the authorities like this since the very beginning !!

Honestly, I couldn't have done it without her! (The yin and yang thing allows me to play good cop to her bad cop - we're like a tag team, and in frequent communication. On this occasion, we didn't plan it, but we might as well have!)
Good Cop, Bad Cop only works in the movies babe !! In real life, the Good Cop takes things one step forward and the Bad Cop drags it one step back ...... possibly even two steps back ......

When I spoke to the MHRA Monday, I had the distinct impression that they realised they were well and truly on the back foot now.... Whether they can recover or not remains to be seen, but we are pressing our advantage, so we'll see.
Why on earth do you think the MHRA are on the back foot now ?? At best they are merely embarrassed by this minor mishap ...... and at worst, really have made their decision and are just doing some early preparation for the reaction it will bring ......

However, they are far more "afraid" of the backlash from their Government/Corporate overlords, then they are of a few angry Vapers and upset Vendors ...... still, your subtle and sophisticated approach may help bring about a workable compromise ...... realistically, that is the best we can hope for, nothing more ......

Never forget, there is a place for all kinds of campaigning, and Kate is an enormously valuable asset to the cause. I'm just glad I'm in a position to be able to offer a 'different' approach!
ABSOLUTELY disagree !!

There is a right way of doing things which yield positive results - and there is the wrong way which always delivers negative results !!

Somebody needs to control that raving lunatic !! Make The Wicked Witch Of The West work for you as a research assistant, supplying you with information from her many sources - then you (and only you!) should be the one who decides how to use it in the most productive (and non-temperamental!) manner ...... the hysterical anarchist routine only destroys credibility and almost always creates an equal and opposite reaction ......



Just realised you called me a witch, hidden amongst all those compliments! ROFL :p
Fine, I'll call you FreakInDaSheets instead !! :D

I appreciate the constructive criticisms you offer, too. I am aware of all the issues you raise, but part of the fundamental problem with the Impact Assessment (and why the RPC so roundly criticised the MHRA!) is that it did not pay enough attention to the economic costs to the industry of the proposed action. Furthermore, in these troubled economic times, I see no harm in pointing out that this is (probably) the only growth industry at the moment! I simply do not believe that anyone in government would recognise that we actually pose a threat to big tobacco! I mean, come on, they're iron clad with legal protection, and successfully killing millions globally! As if we could have any impact on that! ;)
WTF !! Freaky, open your eyes !! If E-cigs were not a threat then we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place woman !! How on Earth can you be so naive ?? (I think Crusader-Kate is rubbing off on you babe!)



Having made phone calls pretty much all day Monday, to the MHRA, and various Trading Standards officers, and their Communications Officers, believe me, this was no deliberate leak! Helen Wale was in pieces, and totally gutted that the trader to whom she had sent the letter had put it out on the internet. She expressed her wish that it could be taken down, but I pointed out that it was a bit late for that now. (Thereafter, it sounded like she was clearing her desk, but I can't be sure...!)

Lisa, together with many of the other members of ECITA, and I'm sure just about everybody who cares about vaping, was pretty cheesed off when this thing first exploded, but I am sure she would agree with me that the position we are in now is a strong one. As I said in my earlier post, we couldn't have got there without Kate.

Just my two-penn'orth!:)
I fully appreciate that it's part of your job to be Little Miss Optimist and make even the smallest victory sound like you've won the whole war !! Babe, please explain why you think Vaping is now supposedly in a strong position ??

You do realise that in all likelihood Helen is totally gutted ...... purely because she let the cat out of the bag !! Perhaps the decision HAS already been made and it is not the one we want to hear !!

Bear in mind that the decision being delayed to September, was in no small part due to a similar judication taking place in September with the FDA ...... this in my opinion, is a very ominous sign ...... :(

PS : Crusader-Kate is the Anti-Christ and so on and so forth etc etc ...... :p
 

Perfectionist

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Sorry Perfy, but coming form you .... :lol::lol::lol::lol:
LOL Touche !! :toast: You see babe, I'm not actually trying to make friends with anyone am I ...... quite the opposite in fact !! :laugh:

However, I can't agree with your views on Kate, she has worked so hard to help fight for & promote vaping.
She should stick to what she's good at - helping out newbies and posting all those silly LOLcats !! :D
 

freakindahouse

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Wow, perfectionist, you are harsh with your snap judgements, aren't you?! LOL

I've been working on this since MLX364 reared its ugly and ill-conceived head, and I don't think my approach is naive, but then I suppose I wouldn't. I believe my strategy is sound, as do the industry colleagues I am working with. We shall follow it through to its logical conclusion, and if the MHRA is foolish enough to reveal a corrupt hand at any point, we shall be ready to fight on.

I categorically refuse, however, to roll over and play dead just because we have big, rich, powerful opposition from Big Tobacco and Big Pharma. While there's breath in my body, I shall fight for truth and justice! ROFL

(God, somebody please help me off this soap-box!!!!!)

:D
 

ckc

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E-Cigs are a threat,theres no way round that, where do they fit in the Tobacco Control Strategy for England? Thats already on the table along with the MHRA:-

� Deliver this new approach with the Medicines and
Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA)
encouraging the development, marketing and wide
availability of nicotine delivery medicines. To create a
level playing field the MHRA will consult on regulating
all nicotine-containing products (with the exception of
tobacco products, which are governed through specific
legislation), and a consultation on how this level playing
field should be created is being launched alongside
this strategy.
• � Support the creation of new routes to quitting by
working with PCTs to develop a model for a new type
of NHS smoking-cessation service that will support
smokers who use the new routes to quitting.

So if E-Cigs are a new route the only way they'll fit in this level playing field is by going under the MHRA. I hope this doesnt happen but E-Cigs are a thorn in their side.
 

freakindahouse

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That's just it, though, ckc: ecigs are not a new route to smoking cessation. They are an alternative choice for smokers who are not 'diseased' and neither want nor need 'treatment'. Ecigs are not now, nor ever should be, medicines. It's ridiculous!

(And BTW, NRT has no right to be considered 'medicine' either!)

Just my humble...
 

ckc

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Maybe i shouldn't have added that last part and just asked where do they fit into the Tobacco Control ? I guess we won't know til September. I know the E-Cig is just an alternative to smoking,thats how i use it. Carry on Dreaming the Impossible Dream(Man of La Macha), i have my fingers and toes crossed for you all with the exception of one to press the button on my PV :)
 
Very interesting ...

It's very important to push our governments to realise studies about ecig. It will take time... And it's obvious there are opposition between
a public health policy in one part, and in the second part the financial interests which are carried by the tobacco industry thanks to taxes ...

Joel
 

CtryBoy

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Trying to google or follow the UK's ban is almost as hard as researching the FDA's actions in the US.

MHR ban letterNo chance the MHR or FDA would say they are ready to discuss the situation but had actually already decided what they wanted to do.

e-cigs.co.uk Official Response to MLX 364 Wow get you some coffee, a full carto, and get comfortable. It's a long read. Says new from 1st of June 2010. Guess that is pretty new for PV related material about these bans. If you go by google, they've already banned them in UK anywhere from a year ago to last month. Question becomes is limbo better than their ultimate solution? As long as I can still get Gary's Mod's from Liberty Flights I'll be kinda happy, but if our brothers and sisters across the pond get sucker punched we might not be too far behind in the states.

Do love the lovely twist in the UK. Having trouble with your alphabet soup? Just get the RPC to pound on the MHRA Gotta do what you gotta do sometimes. Much better when the alphabet soups fight each other than when they pick on little ol you.
 
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rolygate

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CB - Trying to google or follow the UK's ban is almost as hard as researching the FDA's actions in the US.
It's simple - let me give you a guide.

1. A government agency wishes to please its masters by increasing control over consumers and removing choices with a potential cost to government, which is in line with general policy at the time. It also removes a threat to pharmaceutical industry profits, which had resulted in embarrassing meetings between senior government officers and pharma reps, as the pharma people are big contributors and are sure to pass their pain on to the recipients of their contributions.

2. The decision is made to ban e-cigarettes, by the simple expedient of requiring an expensive licensing procedure that starts around £100k ($150). This will successfully remove 99.9% of products from the market. It also has the excellent knock-on effect of giving the pharma people a big commercial advantage in the new market, which in time should therefore be controllable by them.

3. The tobacco industry is also very pleased by the result and make their pleasure known in due course.

4. Due to operational niceties it is necessary to go through a consultation process before the ban is announced. This has no effect on the decision, which has already been made.

5. One or two other government agencies and officers perform a CYA exercise just in case it goes pear-shaped further down the road.

6. The ban is announced and all but one UK supplier shut down.

7. They start up again offshore and it's business as usual. Except that now there is no regulation of the products, as was previously the case, since the national consumer product sales regulation agency, through its local agencies, was successfully regulating the products by testing and analysis - but this cannot apply to products posted in from overseas.

So the consumer suffers in any number of ways: prices go up, choice is reduced, all regulation is removed, and a number of people are forced back on to cigarettes and an early death. But please remember, public health was never a factor in this decision, to think otherwise would be extremely naive.

8. After a decent interval, the government agency originally responsible for the ban starts making waves about 'dangerous illegal medicines' being freely imported. Colleagues see the benefits of stopping these imports, as the pharma people are very generous.

9. Personal imports of these dangerous products are banned, and everyone is happy (except the consumers and and all those sentenced to death - but they don't matter as they have no voice and no money). The offshore suppliers mainly shut down, except for those who are willing to go the whole nine yards and import illegally. There's generally enough of those, though, if demand is high enough; and since making the use of consumer choices such as decaf coffee or ecigarettes illegal by the individual is a step too far even for the newly-empowered Western Stalinists, the demand will be there.

10. Eventually, the public get tired of the Stalinist government style and vote them out. Ah, wait, that happened already.

11. After a few years, there are so many consumers of the dangerous unlicensed medicines that the new, more easily-embarrassed government has to do a U-turn and legitimize them. By then, pharma has a major stake in the market and tobacco have their own consumer brands ready. Everybody is happy.

There now - is that more easily understood?
 

Perfectionist

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I've read some of the threads where that back and forth with Kate took place. The animosity between some of the posters was quite obvious,
What !! You mean there are other people who think she is counter-productive too ?? I thought I was the only one !! :evil:

I'm glad that you came forward and explained Kate's worth, in your view. She is at the outer edges of the continuum at times (maybe mostly). But continuing to kiss .... in a situation like this, normally ends up with contented adversaries while the kisser has brown on their face.

Kate may make them uncomfortable, but she's hard to ignore. Keep up the good fight,
If you want someone to help you, do you :

a) stamp your feet, shout and scream, call them corrupt
b) play nice, be diplomatic, negotiate a compromise

Try both these approaches next time you get pulled over by the Cops or need a loan from your Bank Manager ...... see which one is more effective ;)



Kicks in the balls and a kisses in the .... - seems to be working just fine :D
Yup, it worked just fine in Australia and Canada didn't it :rolleyes:
 

Perfectionist

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Wow, perfectionist, you are harsh with your snap judgements, aren't you?! LOL
Not at all babe - just being realistic and telling it like it is (somebody has to!) :toast:

I've been working on this since MLX364 reared its ugly and ill-conceived head
Why weren't you "preparing" for it BEFORE it came about - didn't y'all realise something like this was definitely on its way ?? :rolleyes:

and I don't think my approach is naive, but then I suppose I wouldn't.
It IS naive, but not to the extent that it'll cause damage - still, there is an easy remedy for naivety ...... open your eyes and see the world for what it really is !! ;)

I believe my strategy is sound, as do the industry colleagues I am working with. We shall follow it through to its logical conclusion, and if the MHRA is foolish enough to reveal a corrupt hand at any point, we shall be ready to fight on.
Who are your industry colleagues ?? Indeed who exactly are the members of your organisation ?? How did they become members ?? Are people being paid or is it all voluntary ?? How did you get your position ?? What is your background, education, experience ?? How successful have you been at this kind of thing in the past ?? etc etc ?? Just curious babe ...... :confused:

I categorically refuse, however, to roll over and play dead just because we have big, rich, powerful opposition from Big Tobacco and Big Pharma. While there's breath in my body, I shall fight for truth and justice! ROFL
Good !! Cos this is gonna be a looooooong fight baby !! :headbang:

Remember if E-cigs survive this September - they are only gonna come after them even harder next year (using far dirtier tricks!) ...... If E-cigs are banned this year - you'll have to very carefully persevere for years to try and get it overturned ...... :2c:

Either way, you've got ya work cut out Freaky !! :vapor:
 

CtryBoy

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It's simple - let me give you a guide.


5. One or two other government agencies and officers perform a CYA exercise just in case it goes pear-shaped further down the road.

Excuse my english. Pear-shaped that's one I dont think I've ever heard?

Nope my brain must not be working cant figure that one out

6. The ban is announced and all but one UK supplier shut down.
Who's this. I shop with LF they better not mess with them I really like their toys. Just wish they were on the US site as well. I was jealous of the UK vapers till I heard about their troubles with the MHRA. Is it MHR or MHRA? I've seen both?

There's generally enough of those, though, if demand is high enough; and since making the use of consumer choices such as decaf coffee or ecigarettes illegal by the individual is a step too far even for the newly-empowered Western Stalinists, the demand will be there.
Unfortunately the US Socialists aka Progressives feel the need to save all the stupid little people around here. And if the anti's are an example of how far they are willing to push (I dont think you can even smoke a cig in your own house, much less outside in public in California thank god I live in Texas) I'm worried, but not sure how to stem the bleeding.

All hail the almight DOLLAR/EURO and the Krugeran's in the Swiss bank account you didnt even tell your accountant about. UK's fight sounds like the road the FDA is on. Beat the hell out of them till they beg for mercy, then GRANT approval somewhere down the line, but layer on enough requirements, regulations, testing, reporting, etc that only big boys can squeeze out enough from us to make it worth it.

Makes me wonder if one day the Glycerin USP will be behind the pharmacy counter like cold medicine is now. Goes to prove you can make it hard, but you cant really stop people from doing what they want to do. Still roll my eyes every time I hear the FDA wanting to make sure ecigs are SAFE?? Even FDA approved crap can kill you with the side effects if the disease doesnt get you first. COST of doing business in some cases, but often its due to a coverup of the possible issues with new drug. Cant even hint at a problem or the FDA will stomp you, but once approved the FDA will do its best to collect all the information on bad events and help you keep it under raps for as long as possible.
 
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