Updated!! Pennsylvania: 40% tax = game over for vape

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swampergene

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There is no tax due on finished DIY, similar to beer and wine. Possession is not a crime, because the "proper tax" was paid. Same with old gear and juice in your cupboard, the "proper tax" was paid. Tax is due when a sale is made from a wholesaler to a retailer or when a consumer exercises the "unclassified importer" option.

Raw materials and consumer produced products are not mentioned in the statue. Liquid nicotine is a grey area. If concentrated enough, it can't be used in a device to simulate smoking. None-the-less, I expect, nicotine will be the raw material that ends up getting taxed when clarifying language is released. VG, PG, and flavoring that is intended to be mixed might also be added. The problem with raw materials other than nicotine is retailers of non-tobacco products in PA will violate the law if I buy a bottle of VG, I plan on vaping. When purchased from an in-state retailer, the statute states I can assume the wholesale tax was paid. In addition, VG will cause some issues because some use it as a finished "tobacco product" and some use it as a raw material in producing their own tobacco product. Raw materials for DIY mods seem out of reach other than vape specific chip sets and maybe 510 connectors.

Sale was expanded to include gift, but in the penalties section, "unlicensed sale" is only a crime and punishments are only listed for when a person engages in a "for profit" sale.

I'm not seeing them be so generous. There are numerous things they placed in the act that could be used to nail DIY guys. For the record I do myself and fully intend to continue to. But just their definition of tobacco products is damning because it covers anything that is put into any device that fits the definition of an electronic cigarette. I agree there could be a grey area there regarding finished product vs components of product, but the term "any" is generally inclusive. This is not a sales tax so the only place where that matters is what transferred to whom and when. Compounding the issue is this...a "manufacturer" is defined as "any person that produces tobacco products". That's it, no mention of "for sale or profit" or who the final user of the product is. So by this early definition in the act, at minimum a DIYer may need to pay for a manufacturer's license to comply. In this case, your ultimate intentions for the final product would likely be irrelevant, by their definition of you make a tobacco product of any kind you are a manufacturer, and manufacturers need a license to "operate" in the state. Saying "it's for my own use"...well, I imagine their response would be "sure that's what you all say".

But wow there ARE so many grey areas that could result in taxes being paid by mistake at numerous levels...imo so many mistakes that the whole section of Article 12A needs to be removed completely. And they top the whole thing of with their own catch-all, that any tobacco product that has not somewhere along the line netted them 40% is contraband and possession of it is a criminal offense. The funny thing is as you pointed out they missed a lot of product in their definitions, certainly not going to go into details on that here until after this, if it remains intact as written by then, officially takes effect. There may also be ways the FDA regs screw up things for these states that jumped the gun.
 

house mouse

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Rossum

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Wait a second! How about the manufacturers take the heat instead of consumers? They are the ones putting this crap out on the shelves, why should WE be taxed for any of it? Pressure food manufacturers to produce decent, nutritious products. There is no reason for any level of government to stuff their hands into my pocket, while lying about their motivation. :sneaky: They can ALL get off my lawn! :mad::censored:
You know how you pressure them? With your wallet and buying choices.
 

Verb

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I'm not seeing them be so generous. There are numerous things they placed in the act that could be used to nail DIY guys. For the record I do myself and fully intend to continue to. But just their definition of tobacco products is damning because it covers anything that is put into any device that fits the definition of an electronic cigarette. I agree there could be a grey area there regarding finished product vs components of product, but the term "any" is generally inclusive. This is not a sales tax so the only place where that matters is what transferred to whom and when. Compounding the issue is this...a "manufacturer" is defined as "any person that produces tobacco products". That's it, no mention of "for sale or profit" or who the final user of the product is. So by this early definition in the act, at minimum a DIYer may need to pay for a manufacturer's license to comply. In this case, your ultimate intentions for the final product would likely be irrelevant, by their definition of you make a tobacco product of any kind you are a manufacturer, and manufacturers need a license to "operate" in the state. Saying "it's for my own use"...well, I imagine their response would be "sure that's what you all say".

But wow there ARE so many grey areas that could result in taxes being paid by mistake at numerous levels...imo so many mistakes that the whole section of Article 12A needs to be removed completely. And they top the whole thing of with their own catch-all, that any tobacco product that has not somewhere along the line netted them 40% is contraband and possession of it is a criminal offense. The funny thing is as you pointed out they missed a lot of product in their definitions, certainly not going to go into details on that here until after this, if it remains intact as written by then, officially takes effect. There may also be ways the FDA regs screw up things for these states that jumped the gun.

A licensed retailer can only buy from another licensed retailer, a licensed wholesaler, or a licensed manufacturer. A licensed wholesaler can only purchase from another wholesaler or manufacturer. A licensed manufacturer can only sell to licensed wholesaler or retailer.

Page 66 section 1229-A addresses unlicensed dealing.
Unlicensed manufacture is not a crime. Unlicensed dealing is only a crime if the activity is for profit.

Without clarification, if the 40% tax and sales/use tax is paid on raw materials purchased after October 1st, making and possessing that DIY liquid appears legal. Clarification, could reduce which raw materials are taxed. As written, it could include all or none.
 

pamdis

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Begs the question... "What the hell does anyone need a 1/2 kilo of pure caffeine for?!?!"

I guess the same can be said for having litres of NIC in the freezer!

I actually have one of these bulk bags. I was a Diet Coke junkie, for many years, and decided I wanted to stop drinking all the chemicals, especially the aspartame, but didn't want to give up the caffeine. So, I now just add it to my filtered tap water :) As a bonus, the cost savings of this vs 8 cans of soda a day is enormous!
 

BreSha6869

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I actually have one of these bulk bags. I was a Diet Coke junkie, for many years, and decided I wanted to stop drinking all the chemicals, especially the aspartame, but didn't want to give up the caffeine. So, I now just add it to my filtered tap water :) As a bonus, the cost savings of this vs 8 cans of soda a day is enormous!
Makes sense. A little different, but makes sense!
 
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satchvai

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retired1

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I actually have one of these bulk bags. I was a Diet Coke junkie, for many years, and decided I wanted to stop drinking all the chemicals, especially the aspartame, but didn't want to give up the caffeine. So, I now just add it to my filtered tap water :) As a bonus, the cost savings of this vs 8 cans of soda a day is enormous!

Guess what else the media has been lying about for decades?

Opinion: Sugar-free soda is safe - CNN.com
 

Tommy-Chi

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    Living in the Detroit area is looking better and better.

    For now. Tick tock.

    Detroit? Uhmmmm, NO. The hockey team is OK, but I'm not moving from one H*ll H*le to another. :D

    Not sure where I would move to right now if I had a choice. I think it's too early on the vape front to know. Between employment, crime, vape rights, housing costs, taxes and 100 other dismal attributes...I think I need a cloud farm of 1000 CPUs to run the Excel spreadsheet on.
     

    Tommy-Chi

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    My wife and I are retiring in the next couple of years. To that end, we made a list of "livability" factors, then ranked each state. The State of Michigan wound up with the highest score — for us. YMMV, of course.

    After a lifetime of living in the Chicagoland area, we're sick of decades-long big-blue-government messes. So, our bias is for small-town living. And Hillsdale, population about 8,300, wound up at the top of the heap for us. Again, YMMV — and probably does.

    Not sure what life will be like by the time I retire, or if I'll ever be able to afford the move, but I like college towns. Right now I'd consider something within 10 to 15 miles of Ames, IA or Champaign-Urbana, IL.
     
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    Tommy-Chi

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    I'm not 'Tweeter literate' but do have an account. So I borrowed from you and left this tweet on 3 PA twitter accounts.

    Government Murder by Proxy - Tobacco Kills, Vaping saves Lives - I Vape, I Vote #IVapeIVote

    PA Legislature (@PaLegis) | Twitter
    PaSenateDems (@PaSenateDems) | Twitter
    PA Senate GOP (@PASenateGOP) | Twitter

    So, is there a way to see tweets from 'others' sent to their pages? Their home pages only show tweets that they sent.

    You can search for any Tweets sent from or too JerryAndKidz by using the search text field, "@JerryAndKidz vape"

    I'll send out the Tweets too.

    It is OK to Tweet too someone, but it is better to post a Tweet to their Twitter Feed so that others see the Tweet.
     

    MikeE3

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    You can search for any Tweets sent from or too JerryAndKidz by using the search text field, "@JerryAndKidz vape"

    I'll send out the Tweets too.

    It is OK to Tweet too someone, but it is better to post a Tweet to their Twitter Feed so that others see the Tweet.

    I did post right to their tweet feed from their 'home page'. But when on their 'home' page I only see tweets 'they' posted. Is there a way to 'see' all tweets posted to them?
     
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    Tommy-Chi

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    I did post right to their tweet feed from their 'home page'. But when on their 'home' page I only see tweets 'they' posted. Is there a way to 'see' all tweets posted to them?

    Sure, CLICK in the body of the Tweet. If there is an image do not click on it, but just above it. You will see all the Tweet replies.
     

    Tommy-Chi

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    Where can I get these new tax forms that I need to fill out? Monthly or per purchase?

    I just ran out of nic and it'll probably take a few weeks to get now.

    Was hoping for some sales b4 the 8-8 FDA deadline to order nic and a mod or two.

    TY

    If vapers reaaaaally wanted to mess with PA I'd suggest the following:
    * go to an out of state vape store to purchase supplies
    * buy ONE 15ml e-liquid purchase on a credit card for the first sale
    * buy everything else for cash
    * everyone file quarterly (I'm guessing) with PA for the tax on the 15ml bottle of e-liquid, which is going to be what? $3 or so?
    * you will basically tie them up with paperwork...and they will not get anything else done
     

    Tommy-Chi

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    Rezko is in prison, along with former Governor Rod Blagojevich for using their connections on the state boards to demand kickbacks from businesses that wished to engage in dealings with the state. Six of our governors have been charged with crimes during or after their governorships; four were convicted. There's a certain governor from the Keystone State who I'd like to see in prison too.

    OT: Why isn't Obama in prison with Tony Rezko?
     

    Verb

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    If vapers reaaaaally wanted to mess with PA I'd suggest the following:
    * go to an out of state vape store to purchase supplies
    * buy ONE 15ml e-liquid purchase on a credit card for the first sale
    * buy everything else for cash
    * everyone file quarterly (I'm guessing) with PA for the tax on the 15ml bottle of e-liquid, which is going to be what? $3 or so?
    * you will basically tie them up with paperwork...and they will not get anything else done

    Even better, it's monthly.
     
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    Tommy-Chi

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    Kinda like these guys?

    Enemies-of-the-State.gif

    I just liked that.

    Am I now on a list?

    Who am I kidding... I'm already on a list. Maybe more than one... :p
     
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