Using Oil Flavorings with VG (Specifically, Peppermint Oil)

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid' started by Pheisty, Sep 9, 2010.

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  1. Pheisty

    Pheisty Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Could someone please explain to me what the issue is with using oil-based flavorings with VG? I want to use Peppermint Oil in my juice but want to know why some people won't use the oil-based flavorings with more than 35% VG.

    Is this a health or hardware risk?

    BTW, I do realize that I must thin the peppermint oil out with vodka or some other alcohol, and I plan on using the NOW brand of oil which is extremely pure. I've been using it topically for years for all sorts of ailments, but I do realize that vaping it is entirely different as it is a very potent oil.

    Anyway, any comments are appreciated...especially from those of you who have used peppermint oil, specifically.

    Thanks! :)
     
  2. LowThudd

    LowThudd Vaping Master ECF Veteran

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    Oils are really tough on the atty. From experience, you will not get the flavor out of the atty easily. Also, they tend to plug up the atty. Best to avoid oils. Furthermore, some oils are REALLY strong and should be cut w/ PGA(everclear).
     
  3. kushka

    kushka Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    There is a type of chemical pneumonia that is caused by breathing oils. A little breathing of oils would not hurt, but some are afraid that prolonged exposure to breathing oil in a PV might result in a bad case -
     
  4. Pheisty

    Pheisty Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Thank you both! That answers my questions. :)
     
  5. Sue1971

    Sue1971 Super Member ECF Veteran

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    From my exsperience.....I had gotten a tobacco juice that I didn't really care for the taste of....I took a 3ml bottle and filled it 3/4th of the way up and the rest with VG. added 2 drops of peppermint oil Comes out good. Now I have been using it in the same atty (the NO.7 e-cig) for a month strait (till I got my ego) It seems to run fine. Only cleaning I did to the addy was to blow it out, and once a week rince out with water...
     
  6. Pheisty

    Pheisty Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Thanks, Sue. Have you had any physical reactions with vaping the peppermint oil? Do you thin it with Vodka or some other alcohol?

    I really want to make my own juice (I'm a natural/organic freak) and I love peppermint oil.
     
  7. Sue1971

    Sue1971 Super Member ECF Veteran

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    Since I've started vaping it (a month ago) The only thing I've noticed was I had that ichy skin...I did read that the ich can be from the withdrawl of the cigs...

    To tell you this is how I accidentally discovered it...lol being a noob...and ordered my ecig. Didn't know to get the extra juice. I ran out of the prefilled carts and started googling search on what the ecigs were made with...Found a vid on youtube on how to make our own...I only used wiltons glycerin few drops of peppermint oil and I did add distilled water to dilute alittle but not much...Of course this is a 0nic mix

    Mix to your tast..But becareful tooo much peppermint oil you will know it...I've got a nice mix going right now actually reminds me of when I smoked newport menthols
     
  8. rolygate

    rolygate Forum Manager Admin Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    This is an interesting thread :)

    I've been using VG plus peppermint oil as my main vape for nearly a year. So far I have never had to clean an atty, and I don't have any lung issues such as pneumonia.

    Of course - YMMV.

    I'd like to see a link to any info related to advisories on inhaling oils, please.

    Notes
    I use pure peppermint oil, undiluted or unthinned in any way.
    My base liquid is Ecopure Krystal 36mg (basically VG pus some DW and EM I think).
    My usual flavor percentage is about 5 to 10% for the oil - 1 or 2 drops to 20 drops of base, but occasionally more.
    Other flavors I may add are tobacco, menthol, etc.
    I only use 5 volts (standard 510 and 801 atties), and LR (a Tornado + LR atty).
    I have never, ever, had to clean an atty (except after DIY liquid mess-ups of course). That's in a year of use, so I wouldn't describe myself as 'experienced', more time is needed for that - but a year with no need to clean an atty is a reasonable data source.
    My atties all last months. In fact I can't remember the last time I blew one in use - but it would have been while dripping, or using a cart I knew needed topping up. Months ago at any rate.
    I have super-sensitive lungs and have even had to spend a few days in hospital with a breathing problem, before I found ecigs. For example as soon as I go over 6 tobacco cigarettes per day, I am at risk of bronchitis, and always get it if my consumption goes up to 10 cigarettes a day.
    I can't use PG as my lungs don't like it.
    I don't have any lung issues after vaping a lot of peppermint oil for a year - except that my lungs are better than ever before, of course. My all-day vape normally has some peppermint oil in it.

    But as I said - YMMV.

    :) Roly


    Paraffinoma note
    There is a type of pneumonia caused by inhaling oils that no doubt causes some reluctance to vape oil-based flavors. It is called Lipid Pneumonia or 'Paraffinoma'.

    However, this is caused, as far as I am aware, from inhaling mineral oils such as paraffin (kerosene) and possibly vegetable oils that are chemically very similar such as castor oil (which is so similar to mineral oils it's used as engine lube). This medical condition is the occupational disease of fire-eaters, as they breathe in paraffin fumes all the time. It is more commonly seen among the elderly or infants who take paraffin or similar over a long period of time for constipation, and breathe the fumes.

    As far as I am aware there is no risk of paraffinoma from inhaling 'essential' oils, as there are apparently no cases on record, with a long history of inhalation of plant oils for various purposes such as application to body areas adjacent to the mouth/nose, and aromatherapy. The term 'lipid' in lipid pneumonia refers, apparently, to the resulting obstruction in the lungs that consists of fats (lipids) as well as infection. There are no lipids in the oils.

    Please note this opinion is that of a layman after research of online materials. For a medical opinion you would need to speak with a bronchial consultant physician with experience of lipid pneumonia cases (which are rare).

    Update
    In general the term 'oil' used in the world of flavourings has no relationship to oils. In flavourings an oil can be called that because it looks oily (viscous) or other reasons. An 'oil' in the world of flavourings is likely to be a plant extract in ethanol etc, and may look oily but have no chemical relationship to the mineral oils that cause paraffin lung.

    Also, the question of dosage needs to be addressed. Although it may be possible to contract paraffin lung from non-mineral oils (ghee or purified butter has been suggested as one cause in South Asian infants who are excessively fed with it), the dosages are huge by comparison with the tiny amount vaped as ~10% flavour in e-liquid.
     
  9. Nikhil

    Nikhil Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

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    They are not actual oils like soybean oil, which would be dangerous to inhale, but certain chemicals that are confusingly called essential 'oils' in the flavoring world (such as benzaldehyde is the main ingredient in almond oil, or eugenol is clove oil).

    Peppermint Oil can contain Menthyl Acetate, Menthone, Cineole, Limonene, Phellandrene, Pinene, and Beta-Caryophyllene. All of these should vaporize fine and many are also used in other flavorings, but sometimes in the process of making natural essential oils you get plant matter which can clog your atomizer eventually.

    As for health issues, the amount you're inhaling is not nearly as much or taken as fast as when you are applying it to your skin I would imagine. How many drops of it have you used on your skin Pheisty?

    Source: The Benefits of Peppermint Essential Oil « Essential Oils… more than basic Aromatherapy
    "Jean Valnet, M.D., studied peppermint’s effect on the liver and respiratory systems. Other scientists have also researched peppermint’s role in affecting impaired taste and smell when inhaled."
     
  10. Sue1971

    Sue1971 Super Member ECF Veteran

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    Just to clairify I'm using Loranns Peppermint oil flavoring...Not sure if that makes a difference.
     
  11. Safira

    Safira Super Member ECF Veteran

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    I've been using Lorann peppermint oil and don't have any problems at all. It has not clogged an atty or caused any atty to die before it's time. (I consider 1 month of 100% use about normal for a Joye ego/510 atty)

    I don't have any health problems from using oils such as peppermint, spearmint, orange, or cinnamon. Remember these are oils so a very little goes a long way. You can start with maybe 3 drops to 3-5 ml of juice and adjust from there.

    As for not getting the flavor out of the atty. Well the atty I am using right now, previous juice I made was a "peppermint patty" type of juice I made for myself using peppermint oil. The juice after that I made was a coffee, and it does take a few vapes, maybe .5 - 1 ml of juice, but it does come out of the atty. If I'm changing flavors after an oil I try to make it one that will "blend" well with it for those 1st few vapes. It will stick around but I don't find it sticks around for long.

    This is just my experience, but I have not found any of the things people are say to be true. (at least for me, but who says I'm normal to begin with)
     
  12. kushka

    kushka Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    No - I was not talking about "essential 'oils'" - I was talking about plain old fashion oil pneumonia

    ie:
    "Exogenous lipoid pneumonia

    Most patients with exogenous lipoid pneumonia are elderly, in the late sixth or seventh decade of life.1 The condition, however, also occurs in infants and has been reported in mentally retarded persons.2 Predisposing factors include an impaired swallowing mechanism secondary to neurologic and esophageal disorders2,3 and the habitual use of different kinds of oils—mineral, animal, or, less common, the vegetable oils found in laxatives, mouth spray, nasal drops, oral lubricants, traditional folk remedies, or insecticides. Lipoid pneumonia is also an occupational hazard of fire eaters.4 The offending agent enters the lungs through inhalation or aspiration or during procedures in which iodized vegetable oils are used as a radiopaque medium"
    Lipoid Pneumonia : Lipoid Pneumonia Causes

    Oil or lipoid pneumonia is extremely rare and thus often overlooked but then vaping is new. You state quite correctly that it is a small amount used in vaping - but many of us vape all day. I vape around 3-5 ml a day. If I flavored my vape with 20% orange oil then I am inhaling somewhere between a half and a full ml of oil a day. That is a whole lot more then I would inhale then by just using some in my hand cream. The OP asked why some people have an issue with oil based flavorings. I was answering why some people do not like the idea and will not use oil based flavorings. I often vape oil based flavorings myself, but then I was a 3 pack a day smoker so I am use to taking extreme risk with my health, but I do respect people who do make healthier choices (I just wish they would respect mine not to.
     
  13. Nikhil

    Nikhil Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

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    Lipoid pneumonia happens when you inhale lipids which are not in essential oils. Orange oil can not give you lipoid pneumonia because it does not contain lipids. There are a few places like getsuckered.com (do NOT order) that carry literal oil based flavoring in soybean oil, and those types are the only ones you must be certain to avoid.
     
  14. Pheisty

    Pheisty Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    This is all very interesting. Thanks to everyone for your input.

    My initial 'gut' reaction to vaping pure peppermint oil is that it would be fine. I literally go through about one small jar of PO every other month. I'm constantly using it for headaches, muscle aches, or when I still smoked and had colds. It has been a true miracle remedy for me and my family. In fact, everyone at my office now has their own personal jar of it. It is also a natural expectorant, which makes me believe that there's no way it could cause pneumonia. In fact, in my humble homeopathic opinion (which is VERY HUMBLE, so please don't take my opinion as the authority) it would prevent such an illness. I've had very good luck with rubbing it on my chest instead of Vick's when I had major chest congestion. Within a few minutes of breathing it in and allowing it to sink in to my skin, I was hacking stuff up.

    I think I'm going to go ahead and make some up. :)
     
  15. Pheisty

    Pheisty Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Yes, Sue, that is something entirely different. What I'm referencing is pure peppermint oil, extracted from a leaf. You can buy it at health and natural foods stores. It's used for aromatherapy and other homeopathic purposes.
     
  16. rolygate

    rolygate Forum Manager Admin Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    So here is the current state of play, as I understand it:

    Reasons to avoid oil inhalation
    Lipoid or lipid pneumonia ('golden pneumonia' or 'paraffinoma') is caused by the inhalation of certain oils. The oils most commonly known to cause this condition are mineral oils, and some vegetable oils such as castor oil. Two common profiles of sufferers are elderly persons or infants with frequent use of mineral oil as a laxative (who therefore breathe in the oil vapor frequently), and fire-eaters, for whom this is the occupational disease, due to inhalation of paraffin (kerosene) vapor. The condition may also be caused by the introduction of milk or stomach contents into the lungs. The condition is also associated with oils that suppress the natural coughing reaction to inhalation of foreign matter.

    It has been stated that the types of oils that we use to flavor eliquid do not contain any ingredients known to cause lipoid pneumonia. However it probably needs a detailed list of all such oils and a note against each, that it does not contain such ingredients and that it has been used safely for inhalation, for any such statement to be of value.

    It is unclear whether the term 'lipids' refers to ingredients in the oil causing the condition, or ingredients in the materials in the lung resulting from the condition, as this is very poorly defined in the medical literature available online (in fact it is not covered in the c. ten articles I saw). Since lipids are organic fats of the type widely present in the body, and the condition is known to be caused by mineral oils with no such ingredient, it seems more likely that lipid pneumonia is characterised by the presence of lipids as extruded material within the lung. This needs clarification.

    We know that peppermint oil, used in moderation, seems acceptably safe for this purpose, as there are many users and no negative reports.

    Current experience seems to be that that oils used to flavor eliquids do not present problems, when used in moderation. However as one user stated, inhalation of large quantities per day such as the 5ml quoted, possibly with a high percentage of oil, may be another matter.

    Reasons to avoid atomizer contamination
    Atomizer coating or failure: experience shows that with high-power use - voltage raised or atomizer resistance lowered so that 6 or 7 watts or more of power is used - there is no issue. Indeed, it is possible for large quantities of oil-based eliquids to be used over long periods of time and the atomizer to never require any cleaning whatsoever. This experience may be limited to VG-based liquids.

    Standard atomizers (ie low-power use) may require cleaning though, due to the lower temperatures involved.

    Persistance of flavor after changing liquid: it is likely that oil-based flavors are harder to clean off than others - but many devote an atomizer and cartridge to a frequently-used flavor, so this isn't an issue for them.
     
  17. Nikhil

    Nikhil Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

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    Orange oil (Citrus sinensis) - information on the origin, source, extraction method, chemical composition, therapeutic properties and uses. - a-pinene, sabinene, myrcene, limonene, linalool, citronellal, neral and geranial.
    It is a safe non-toxic, non-irritant and non-sensitizing oil, yet care must be taken with it since it can have a phototoxic effect. It should therefore preferably not be applied before going out into sunlight for prolonged periods.
    In vapor therapy, orange oil can help with colds and flu, nervous tension and stress and helps to create a feeling of happiness and warmth, while helping children fall asleep at night.

    Aniseed oil (Pimpinella anisum) - information on the origin, source, extraction method, chemical composition, therapeutic properties and uses. - a-pinene, camphene, b-pinene, linalool, cis-anethole, trans-anethole, safrole, anisaldehyde and acetoanisole.
    In vapor therapy, aniseed oil is useful for asthma, colds and all breathing problems, as well as quelling nausea and vomiting.

    Bergamot oil (Citrus bergamia) - information on the origin, source, extraction method, chemical composition, therapeutic properties and uses. - a-pinene, myrcene, limonene, a-bergaptene, b-bisabolene, linalool, linalyl acetate, nerol, neryl acetate, geraniol, geraniol acetate and a-terpineol.
    Etc...

    I took a cursory look at all of the commonly used oils' main ingredients there and none of them seem to be lipids, although there were a few I'm not entirely sure about.
     
  18. providencewouldhaveit

    providencewouldhaveit Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    Here's an aroma therapy link that gives the uses & ingredients... of essential oils. I think you only have to add about 1% to your vape to get a strong flavor.
    Index of /EssentialOils
    Here's the link for peppermint oil
    Peppermint Essential Oil
     
  19. providencewouldhaveit

    providencewouldhaveit Senior Member ECF Veteran

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    If your useing 100% VG you can mix pure peppermint essential oil with equal part PGA to get it to blend better. As far as those who want to use scare tactics about essential oil usage. Essential oils have a long history of inhalation useage in aroma therapy with no ill effects. Nicotine is basically an essential oil. It is CO2 extraction that is filtered through charcoal and the end result is a oily substance.
     
  20. rolygate

    rolygate Forum Manager Admin Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    On further research it appears that Lipid Pneumonia is a condition caused by inhaling mineral oils such as paraffin (kerosene) or castor oil, which is chemically similar.

    It is characterised by a fungal infection of the lung which appears at the site of fat deposits (lipids) extruded by tissues injured by mineral oil inhalation.

    There are no lipids (organic fats) in the oils inhaled.

    -----------
    This is the result of a layman's research and would need to be confirmed by a bronchial consultant.
     
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