Vape shops closing .....a tribute to our Vendors

[retired1]

Let customers week out the "bad shops."

Unfortunately, the bad shops may not be readily apparent. Especially those that cater to the hobbyist more than those who wish to quit smoking. The staff at those kind of stores will push a totally inappropriate mod to a beginner, with the typical disastrous results.

How many times have we seen beginners post here on ECF about getting their first mod, and the yo-yo where they bought it built a sub-ohm coil for them that was a whisker away from being a direct short and was totally clueless about battery safety?

There are too many shops that are classified as good by the wrong people for this very reason.

 

[bnrkwest]

The vaping industry has been "over-saturated" for some time now. Last year I talked to somebody who was going to open a vape shop, and within the time it took to go to sleep that night and get a business license on lunch hour, 2 more opened on the very street where he was going to locate. And several others across town had closed. In 2015, OKC had over 300 vape shops. That is over saturation.
Sales of ecigs, including cig-a-likes, slowed markedly at the end of last year, at least compared to the previous growth spurts:
E-Cigarette Sales Rapidly Lose Steam

I was reading posts on reddit a year ago by people opening vape shops and despite advertising, good CS, social media, they were getting like 1-2 customers a day. After reams of good and bad advice, finally somebody who *gets it* says:
"Did you write a business plan before creating your business? Guessing not. This is how people end up in this situation."

People were writing about it:
The Plight of the Local Vape Shop - iVape Local

Once oversaturation happened, B&Ms were struggling.


I predicted 2-3 years ago, by watching what companies were doing, who would survive years down the line. My thoughts about who that will be haven't changed, and it's not just BT.

Yes regulation is a hump. But there are people who are going to persevere and my thoughts are they will be around next year, the year after, etc.

Supply, demand and competion all the things that make our capitalism go round What stops it in it's tracks are impossible regulations. Even the big boys in the vape biz don't have the cash to get products thru. Maybe BT but not anyone else, it is cost prohibitive. I am not sure BT will either, if they make most of their money off cigs, why would they submit cig-a-likes that don't make as much profit. The economics of the product weighed against the regulation demand and money to submit for approval makes the business plan DOA.

 

[bnrkwest]

It is interesting to touch on the economics of vaping. A couple things I and many have noticed. The industry is/was a fast and furious growth in a cottage industry. What was the latest greatest today was old school the next day. Trying to keep supplied in what the customer demanded was pretty tricky for the shop owner. The cash cow is/was juice.

 

[Kenna]

Fat Cat Vapor Shop LLC of Montoursville, PA, will be closing mid-September. No. of employees, unknown.

eta: I can't get the link to their post to come up. No idea why. Here is the link to their FB page:

Facebook

That is an excellent resource link! Go to their page & scroll down. There is a pic of the names of the Reps & how they voted. There is also a link to find who your rep is. Every yea vote needs phone calls.

 

[LilWhiteClouder]

We should see some PA shops on the list very soon (just read Oliver's post about the 40% tax rate on vape stuffs ) I'll check for any recent closing near me (Raleigh, NC)...

I post the above and get an e-mail from UltimateVapeDeals about their closing due to the PA tax hike!

Added to the GD SS...

That's a double entendre abbreviation there

 

[Lessifer]

The vaping industry has been "over-saturated" for some time now. Last year I talked to somebody who was going to open a vape shop, and within the time it took to go to sleep that night and get a business license on lunch hour, 2 more opened on the very street where he was going to locate. And several others across town had closed. In 2015, OKC had over 300 vape shops. That is over saturation.
Sales of ecigs, including cig-a-likes, slowed markedly at the end of last year, at least compared to the previous growth spurts:
E-Cigarette Sales Rapidly Lose Steam

I was reading posts on reddit a year ago by people opening vape shops and despite advertising, good CS, social media, they were getting like 1-2 customers a day. After reams of good and bad advice, finally somebody who *gets it* says:
"Did you write a business plan before creating your business? Guessing not. This is how people end up in this situation."

People were writing about it:
The Plight of the Local Vape Shop - iVape Local

Once oversaturation happened, B&Ms were struggling.


I predicted 2-3 years ago, by watching what companies were doing, who would survive years down the line. My thoughts about who that will be haven't changed, and it's not just BT.

Yes regulation is a hump. But there are people who are going to persevere and my thoughts are they will be around next year, the year after, etc.

There is a BIG difference between attrition due to market forces(over saturation, lack of business acumen, etc.) and systematic annihilation on the state and federal level aided by national propaganda campaigns.

Not every shop that closes is closed due to regulations, but some are, and more will. If there are no changes to the federal regulations the current thousands of liquid and hardware manufacturers will likely be reduced to a dozen or so products. At that point, there will be no need for vape shops, everything vape related will fit on one shelf above the smokeless tobacco in a convenience store.

 

[OlderNDirt]

Unfortunately, the bad shops may not be readily apparent. Especially those that cater to the hobbyist more than those who wish to quit smoking. The staff at those kind of stores will push a totally inappropriate mod to a beginner, with the typical disastrous results.

How many times have we seen beginners post here on ECF about getting their first mod, and the yo-yo where they bought it built a sub-ohm coil for them that was a whisker away from being a direct short and was totally clueless about battery safety?

There are too many shops that are classified as good by the wrong people for this very reason.

While I totally agree with your point, bad shops with bad employees that do not have their customer's best interest at heart, do we really want government regulation(s) determining which shops are good/bad or requiring a degree in e-cigarette sales for all employees? Not sure how else bad vape shops can be identified or "weeded out", but will gladly listen.

And if government intervention is necessary in the vape industry, it should also be necessary in multiple other industries to "weed out" bad businesses. I would prefer avoiding that at all cost.

 

[Racehorse]

All good points.

i remember when the cable industry was de regulated. Prices didn't go down. They went up.

And I have tons of other examples.

But there are examples on both sides. B doesn't necessarily follow A in all cases.

 

[Lessifer]

All good points.

i remember when the cable industry was de regulated. Prices didn't go down. They went up.

And I have tons of other examples.

But there are examples on both sides. B doesn't necessarily follow A in all cases.

Not quite a proper analogy, unless the cable companies were hit with a 40-75% tax that the dish companies were exempt from.

This is a better analogy, though still not quite the same as there is no concerted effort to demonize beer: Growing microbreweries feel strain of laws, possible new restrictions

 

[Janet H]

While I totally agree with your point, bad shops with bad employees that do not have their customer's best interest at heart, do we really want government regulation(s) determining which shops are good/bad or requiring a degree in e-cigarette sales for all employees? Not sure how else bad vape shops can be identified or "weeded out", but will gladly listen.

And if government intervention is necessary in the vape industry, it should also be necessary in multiple other industries to "weed out" bad businesses. I would prefer avoiding that at all cost.

I don't trust the government to be the authority to know what's best for consumers. Customers will weed out bad shops by not buying from them. Word gets out quickly and without customers the business will fold.

 

[bnrkwest]

The buyer may not know it, but the Consumer has all the ultimate power and control over all products and businesses and industry Don't like a corp, don't buy their stuff. Someone screwed you over in a biz, don't buy their stuff. The Consumer is the all powerful one LOL Just look at all the money industries and businesses throw at us thru advertising, the clever ones suck us in

 

[DaveP]

Where I live there's about 90K population in the city limits, with a total county population of around 155K. There's one really good vape shop and that's owned by a long term member of ECF. Most of the rest have a vaping counter inside a convenience store environment or a small strip mall store with one employee, a glass case of starter products, and a short wall of generic juices.

Everyone seems to want to get into vaping stuff, but few are willing to sink a lot of cash into something that's threatened by vaguely understood government intentions.

The initial intent of state and federal vape laws seem to be addressed toward preventing minors from buying vape products. After that it's the content of juices being sold and the safety of the hardware. Put all that together and the uncertainty about the future of vaping begins to rise. Add in the cost of compliance and it all becomes a heavy handed attempt at killing the vape market.

 

[ScandaLeX]

Thank @Racehorse. The Plight of the Local Vape Shop - iVape Local was an interesting read.
The only things I disagreed with was this but mainly due to personal experiences. At the time I was supporting local B&M's (early in my vaping) I quickly found out that no one likes a customer who actually knows what he/she is talking about & can spot the BS.
As for the loan of juice until payday....I'm not going to call out any online vendors for fear they'd be bombarded but I've gotten entire orders & paid on payday & it hasn't been for just juice or just in the US.
I can honestly say I've had better experiences online than in any of the B&M I've gone to.

As a consumer, we should be supporting our local shops whenever possible. Nobody is going to fault you for trying save money but if you support your neighborhood vape shop they will be there to support you back. Try going to an online store and asking them to loan you a bottle of juice until payday or sit at their vape bar and sample loads of free juice. B&Ms serve a purpose by being local hubs for e-cigarette activism and general conversation. If you know a good vape shop please continue to support them to help keep them around. It’ll be worth it in the long run.​

 

[Racehorse]

Even the big boys in the vape biz don't have the cash to get products thru. Maybe BT but not anyone else, it is cost prohibitive.

I think you are very wrong about that.

If you think outfits like Nicopure(Halo)or NJOY are going away then I believe you are mis-calculating.


(But hey, I don't want to interfere with anybody's stockpiling plans. )

 

[Racehorse]

Most of the rest have a vaping counter inside a convenience store environment or a small strip mall store with one employee, a glass case of starter products, and a short wall of generic juices.

Everyone seems to want to get into vaping stuff, but few are willing to sink a lot of cash into something that's threatened by vaguely understood government intentions.

Most vaping outfits were as you describe before there was any talk of FDA deeming.
Heck, there's been guys who were roofers (maybe they just wanted to get out of the heat) who were opening up vape shops and mixing ejuice behind counters. *Everybody* was.

Some probably went from selling those fake Gucci wristwatches out on the sidewalk to running a vaping store.

The truth is that most of these people didn't HAVE the cash to sink into their business.

Those who did, like Halo or Mountain Oaks Vapor, etc. are still the successful entrepreneurs, with real business models, that they always were.

I guess I've just "acclimated" to what I thought was a foregone conclusion, for over 4 years now..........that people were not going to be allowed to hold a few bottles under the counter, or in a stockroom, mixing liquid that was intended to be going into a human's body, without some kind of licensing and registration. Or that states weren't going to see a tax opportunity on all these sales ($50 billion by 2030 is what analysts predicted ).....

Anybody who thought otherwise was in some kind of pipe dream. Sorry, but that is how I see it.

 

[OlderNDirt]

I guess the good news is we each get to determine out own view of the future of vaping, some good and some not so optimistic. Without serious change in current regs and trends, here is how I see it:

Vaping is starting a downward spiral and it is a steep spiral. Right now with the uncertainty of federal regulations and implementations of state regulations, local vape shops are the first victims. Many are fine with even the total elimination of locals, but as I see it, with every closing of a local vape shop there is a loss of possible future and existing customers. Nobody knows how many. But eliminating a possible increase, or heaven forbid, having a decrease in vapers will not be good for the future of vaping.

Some proclaim a few of the top suppliers of gear and juice will not go out of business and they are correct.......today. And it is not going to magically happen August 9 or the end of the year. But even if the feds back down on some of their regs, the states have been given the green light to stomp out vaping TODAY! Will it come gradually or be an avalanche of regulation? Again, nobody knows. But it is coming. And the spiral continues......but we are all good for at least a couple years, right?

For now, I suspect most online vendors, most gear manufacturers, many juice companies, and some local shops to remain. But one by one they or their products will start to diminish. Sellers cannot sell what they cannot get. And even if a juice company remains, will it be at their current level or a reduced number of products? And most important, at what cost to the customer?

And that downward spiral continues. Fewer sellers, fewer products, fewer vapers, and higher prices causing fewer vapers causing fewer products causing fewer sellers. Without serious intervention, the hammer will fall. The only question is when?

It may not be the elimination of vaping, but it will be at a cost most will find impossible to afford.

 

[bnrkwest]

I think you are very wrong about that.

If you think outfits like Nicopure(Halo)or NJOY are going away then I believe you are mis-calculating.


(But hey, I don't want to interfere with anybody's stockpiling plans. )

It is cost prohibitive to submit all products they have and juice, even for Halo. BT could perhaps.

 

[mattiem]

I could be very wrong but I personally think BP is the bottom line evil behind the fight we are fighting. They lost their bid to own this industry when it got thrown out the first time the fda tried to get it for them. Sure BT is seeing a dip in profits and the states are getting very nervous about defaulting on the loans they took out having the MSA payments as collateral but I think it is the giant pharmaceutical companies that are the driving force behind this witch hunt. They are losing money in several ways. They can't give away their ineffective NRT's and we that have made the switch to vaping are living healthier lives. They don't want us healthy. A healthy population is bad for business

 

[Alien Traveler]

They don't want us healthy. A healthy population is bad for business

And draw Social Security benefits for longer time.

 

[mikepetro]

It is cost prohibitive to submit all products they have and juice, even for Halo. BT could perhaps.

I think that with "Master Files" there will be a pathway.
Lets assume:

• Folks like Nicopure do the footwork to create a Master File for their pure nic. Some have already publicized that they will.
  
• Master Files for flavorings already exist, this allows flavoring manufacturers to not divulge secret formulas.
  
• Not sure if Master Files already exist for PG and VG, but same principle applies.

So, if a juice manufacturer only used ingredients for which a Master File already exists, it greatly reduces the regulatory hoops they would have to jump through as they wouldnt have to provide all the testing.

Now certainly it would reduce the variety we see today, but I think a pathway does exist.

It is my understanding that folks like Evolv will try to do the same thing with their electronics. But then you get into that whole 2007 thing.