Vape shops closing .....a tribute to our Vendors

[mattiem]

alien Traveler" data-source="post: 18222059" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

And draw Social Security benefits for longer time.

that too but at least we aren't using our medicare funds

 

[bnrkwest]

Halo has a sale on their high VG juice right now, buy some and help the cause

 

[cats5365]

I think that with "Master Files" there will be a pathway.
Lets assume:

• Folks like Nicopure do the footwork to create a Master File for their pure nic. Some have already publicized that they will.
  
• Master Files for flavorings already exist, this allows flavoring manufacturers to not divulge secret formulas.
  
• Not sure if Master Files already exist for PG and VG, but same principle applies.

So, if a juice manufacturer only used ingredients for which a Master File already exists, it greatly reduces the regulatory hoops they would have to jump through as they wouldnt have to provide all the testing.

Now certainly it would reduce the variety we see today, but I think a pathway does exist.

It is my understanding that folks like Evolv will try to do the same thing with their electronics. But then you get into that whole 2007 thing.

The place they will get everyone, is even with a master file and pharma-approved nic, you still have to prove that the combination of everything in each SKU is safe for all variations of devices, AND provides a benefit to humanity, including the non-users, AND that they will believe your evidence. This is all after you spent your $$$$$$ on the application package.

I think some of the BT guys figured that out and are now re-thinking their support of the regs. They can sell their regular smokes, but the closed systems are all fairly new and unless the predicate date is changed, they have to start at zero.

The BP bulk nic may have approvals or be pre-2007, but the minute anyone cuts it or mixes it with anything, it is not the same stuff.

 

[Completely Average]

It is my understanding that folks like Evolv will try to do the same thing with their electronics. But then you get into that whole 2007 thing.

Evolv could actually be exempt from regulation entirely.

Evolve doesn't actually sell any vaping products. They sell voltage regulating chips. Those chips are used in vaping products, but those chips are not vaping products by themselves. The chip by itself is no more a vaping product than a battery, a wire, a button, or even a metal box with some holes drilled in it.

I could see Evolv surviving and skirting the law by providing chips to "electronics enthusiasts" who would then use those chips however they want. In fact I could see a whole "DIY Mod" market developing, where companies sell certain individual components which could be used in mods, but not complete mods or complete kits to build mods. Company A could sell boxes, company B could sell chips, company C could sell 510 connectors, and the local hardware store sells everything else you need to make your own mods, all outside of FDA regulation because each component is sold on it's own as a stand alone product for general use.

 

[Bob Chill]

Evolv could actually be exempt from regulation entirely.

Evolve doesn't actually sell any vaping products. They sell voltage regulating chips. Those chips are used in vaping products, but those chips are not vaping products by themselves. The chip by itself is no more a vaping product than a battery, a wire, a button, or even a metal box with some holes drilled in it.

I could see Evolv surviving and skirting the law by providing chips to "electronics enthusiasts" who would then use those chips however they want. In fact I could see a whole "DIY Mod" market developing, where companies sell certain individual components which could be used in mods, but not complete mods or complete kits to build mods. Company A could sell boxes, company B could sell chips, company C could sell 510 connectors, and the local hardware store sells everything else you need to make your own mods, all outside of FDA regulation because each component is sold on it's own as a stand alone product for general use.

The FDA's "intended use" language disagrees. IF the reg package goes through as is, they will have the legal authority to police companies selling "random parts".

 

[GBalkam]

Regulations or no regulations, I'm actually 100% ok with some of the vape shops closing in my area, as I don't think that they deserve to be in business.

Some of them are unprofessional, they are extremely overpriced and the market is over saturated in my area. I obviously don't want to see any "good" shops closing, but I do not care about any of the "bad" shops closing.

Don't worry, they will. Given a choice, consumers follow the staff not the product.
This is highly evident in retail.

 

[classwife]

The FDA's "intended use" language disagrees. IF the reg package goes through as is, they will have the legal authority to police companies selling "random parts".

yep

 

[Lessifer]

*Gasp* mixing liquids behind counters!

At the risk of throwing this thread even more off topic, mixing e-liquid is literally as simple and straightforward as mixing a cocktail. If you believe a bar can mix a drink on premises and should not be required to only serve cocktails that come in individual sealed packaging, I don't see the problem with in-shop mixing. Of course the regulators don't see it that way, but they're paid not to.

 

[Bob Chill]

*Gasp* mixing liquids behind counters!

At the risk of throwing this thread even more off topic, mixing e-liquid is literally as simple and straightforward as mixing a cocktail. If you believe a bar can mix a drink on premises and should not be required to only serve cocktails that come in individual sealed packaging, I don't see the problem with in-shop mixing. Of course the regulators don't see it that way, but they're paid not to.

Couldn't agree more. Mixing juice is stupid easy. Easier than making cookies. Speaking of cookies, I can rent a commercial kitchen and make whatever kind of cookie I want and sell them. The logical and sensible approach is to have an FDA master file of ingredients (just like in the food industry) and leave it at that. But we collectively disrupted big corporations and government tax dollars so sensible and logical play no role here. Quite the opposite.

 

[sos2001]

I really tried to buy local. Did so exclusively at first. But here is an example of what changed that for me. When the regs were first being discussed, I decide to buy up some of the "older" mods that had a reputation of being solid and reliable. Example...the Siegeli (despite their resent offerings) 150. Found it on clearance for $49. was in a local shop about 3 months ago and they had it on "sale" for $149.95. There's a want to support your local economy and then there's being stupid. And I did not get it from China...Good ole USA on line.

The shop that I purchased my first eGo from has gone under...that was kinda sad to see.

 

[OlderNDirt]

*Gasp* mixing liquids behind counters!

At the risk of throwing this thread even more off topic, mixing e-liquid is literally as simple and straightforward as mixing a cocktail. If you believe a bar can mix a drink on premises and should not be required to only serve cocktails that come in individual sealed packaging, I don't see the problem with in-shop mixing. Of course the regulators don't see it that way, but they're paid not to.

The "problem" is one ingests a drink and one inhales e-juice (well, normally anyway). Therefore, they must be treated differently.


Uh........oh.....wait a minute...... In my younger days when drinking was akin to breathing, I heard on more then a few occasions....."WOW! You sure inhaled that one!"

In my best Roseanna Rosannadanna voice, "NEVER MIIND!"

Hopefully, I don't need a "sarcasm emoticon" for anything said in this post.

 

[ScandaLeX]

I think that with "Master Files" there will be a pathway.
So, if a juice manufacturer only used ingredients for which a Master File already exists, it greatly reduces the regulatory hoops they would have to jump through as they wouldnt have to provide all the testing.

Correct me if I'm wrong ....so if a juice manufacturer uses ingredients for which a master file already exists BUT the FDA wants to charge $100.000 for the very same thing that already exists, wouldn't that be in a sense Double Dipping? Stealing? Double Standard?
And with that thought, how can the FDA say what's in ejuice in not safe or hasn't been tested- then why have a master file to begin with?

 

[retired1]

wouldn't that be in a sense Double Dipping? Stealing? Double Standard?

Welcome to the FDA.

 

[bnrkwest]

Wouldn't PG and VG already be on a master list? PG and VG being used as consumables already?

 

[Bob Chill]

Wouldn't PG and VG already be on a master list? PG and VG being used as consumables already?

The tricky part is consumptiom by inhalation all day every day. Ingestion is a stark difference. It seems simple to all of us but from a regulatory sense it's a lot more complicated. What we need is a master file for consumption by inhalation. How we get there is no easy task. We're still in the infancy of all this.

I do believe at some point in the future that vaping will be widely accepted and a master list of indredients with tested additives will exist. I hope I live long enough to see it. Lol

 

[bnrkwest]

PG may be ok since it is used for inhaled drug delivery, not sure about inhaled VG?

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

The tricky part is consumptiom by inhalation all day every day. Ingestion is a stark difference. It seems simple to all of us but from a regulatory sense it's a lot more complicated. What we need is a master file for consumption by inhalation. How we get there is no easy task. We're still in the infancy of all this.

I do believe at some point in the future that vaping will be widely accepted and a master list of indredients with tested additives will exist. I hope I live long enough to see it. Lol

But isn't there inhalers that also have pg in them? And what about breathing treatments? Those products also have pg in them as well and have been approved by the FDA.

 

[Bob Chill]

But isn't there inhalers that also have pg in them? And what about breathing treatments? Those products also have pg in them as well and have been approved by the FDA.

PG inhalers typically use no heat. Just pressure and nozzle. PG is probably the easiest to analyze though. But that's just a small piece of the puzzle.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

PG inhalers typically use no heat. Just pressure and nozzle. PG is probably the easiest to analyze though. But that's just a small piece of the puzzle.

never mind

 

[YoursTruli]

Oh yes I know, but breathing treatments use heat. My comments were geared towards maybe as far as pg goes, the FDA would already have a Master file on hand, and therefore hopefully leave it alone. They can't really prove on an individual level if I plan to inhale pg through vaping or through breathing treatments without actually observing my use.

breathing treatments do not use heat ......and as far as I am aware (after much research) there are no products currently on the market, (or that have been in quite some time) either inhalers/nebulizer treatments, that contain PG.