Vaping nicotine as a never-smoker, why not?

[coralsands]

"Limited" is not the correct word. "No" would be a more correct word. NO study has ever demonstrated nicotine dependence when nicotine is divorced from tobacco. Therefore, it is most likely impossible to become "addicted" vaping nicotine. However, because of the loose definition of "addiction" (as in sex addiction, gambling addiction, internet addiction, food addiction, etc.), as with many formed habits you very probably can become "addicted" to vaping, but it has little to do with the nicotine.

Do you have any studies showing that nicotine is specifically not addictive? if not then what your saying is akin to saying that since we do not have any studies concluding that deer have eyesight, we can likely conclude that deer cannot in fact see. Now I am not as riled up as before and I am genuinely curious as to what research everyone is getting their conclusions from? or is it specifically the lack of research?
also, in my defense, I think we are kind of playing down the power of habitual addictions such as gambling. I have heard about a study that gave gambling addicts amphetamine with a non gambling control group and the gambling addicts responded less to the amphetamine than the non gamblers. I will try to find the study now.

 

[coralsands]

Do you have any studies showing that nicotine is specifically not addictive? if not then what your saying is akin to saying that since we do not have any studies concluding that dear have eyesight, we can likely conclude that deer cannot in fact see. Now I am not as riled up as before and I am genuinely curious as to what research everyone is getting their conclusions from? or is it specifically the lack of research?
also, in my defense, I think we are kind of playing down the power of habitual addictions such as gambling. I have heard about a study that gave gambling addicts amphetamine with a non gambling control group and the gambling addicts responded less to the amphetamine than the non gamblers. I will try to find the study now.

 

[coralsands]

Do you have any studies showing that nicotine is specifically not addictive? if not then what your saying is akin to saying that since we do not have any studies concluding that dear have eyesight, we can likely conclude that deer cannot in fact see. Now I am not as riled up as before and I am genuinely curious as to what research everyone is getting their conclusions from? or is it specifically the lack of research?
also, in my defense, I think we are kind of playing down the power of habitual addictions such as gambling. I have heard about a study that gave gambling addicts amphetamine with a non gambling control group and the gambling addicts responded less to the amphetamine than the non gamblers. I will try to find the study now.

Gambling Addicts' Brains Don't Have The Same Opioid Systems As Others
THERE WE GO. Anyone else having problems trying to post here? ok so this is an article citing the study, i searched the study citation in google and all that came up was some website with a pdf in french. so thats annoying. To be honest though Iv looked into research before, Im not really sure how to search for studies other than through google.(that quality high school education kicking in)

 

[VNeil]

Do you have any studies showing that nicotine is specifically not addictive? if not then what your saying is akin to saying that since we do not have any studies concluding that deer have eyesight, we can likely conclude that deer cannot in fact see. Now I am not as riled up as before and I am genuinely curious as to what research everyone is getting their conclusions from? or is it specifically the lack of research?
also, in my defense, I think we are kind of playing down the power of habitual addictions such as gambling. I have heard about a study that gave gambling addicts amphetamine with a non gambling control group and the gambling addicts responded less to the amphetamine than the non gamblers. I will try to find the study now.

There are a number of studies that were done to look at the neurological benefits of Nicotine for alleviating Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and similar problems. They've been quoted on this site and you can probably find them with a site search.

Also consider that it is unethical to give never users an addictive drug. If Nicotine is truly "highly addictive" how could those studies ever get past ethical preview? Similarly, how could the FDA have possibly made all the NRT's OTC if they deliver a highly addictive substance? Despite much propaganda from the gov't, OTC sales of Nicotine are tacit proof that the FDA does not consider Nicotine addictive.

Here is an article about one such study, you may want to search on the lead researcher's name, Dr Paul Newhouse, because he is frequently quoted in the press and here as being convinced Nicotine, by itself is not addictive, based on his study(s).

Study finds nicotine safe, helps in Alzheimer's, Parkinson's | Tampa Bay Times

This FDA document changing (loosening) the labeling requirements for NRTs mentions...

"We also note that although any nicotine-containing product has the potential to be addicting, based on the available evidence, currently marketed OTC NRT products do not appear to have significant potential for abuse or dependence. "

My interpretation of the above government-speak... "We are rather reluctant to totally abandon 100 years of Nicotine propaganda, but honestly we can find nothing addictive about it in the various studies available to us". You are, of course, free to interpret it as you desire

In reply #4 below, some details of a Newhouse study, the same or similar to the one linked above...

New study: Quitting Smoking Gradually May Be Best Option | E-Cigarette Forum

 

[coralsands]

alzhiemers article does not actually cite the study its referring to from what i can tell

 

[VNeil]

alzhiemers article does not actually cite the study its referring to from what i can tell

No, but I cite a study by the same researcher (Newhouse) in another link, and you can google his name or search it here on the forum and get more info on his studies, and that may lead to more studies by others.

 

[coralsands]

There are a number of studies that were done to look at the neurological benefits of Nicotine for alleviating Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and similar problems. They've been quoted on this site and you can probably find them with a site search.

Also consider that it is unethical to give never users an addictive drug. If Nicotine is truly "highly addictive" how could those studies ever get past ethical preview? Similarly, how could the FDA have possibly made all the NRT's OTC if they deliver a highly addictive substance? Despite much propaganda from the gov't, OTC sales of Nicotine are tacit proof that the FDA does not consider Nicotine addictive.

Here is an article about one such study, you may want to search on the lead researcher's name, Dr Paul Newhouse, because he is frequently quoted in the press and here as being convinced Nicotine, by itself is not addictive, based on his study(s).

Study finds nicotine safe, helps in Alzheimer's, Parkinson's | Tampa Bay Times

This FDA document changing (loosening) the labeling requirements for NRTs mentions...

"We also note that although any nicotine-containing product has the potential to be addicting, based on the available evidence, currently marketed OTC NRT products do not appear to have significant potential for abuse or dependence. "

My interpretation of the above government-speak... "We are rather reluctant to totally abandon 100 years of Nicotine propaganda, but honestly we can find nothing addictive about it in the various studies available to us". You are, of course, free to interpret it as you desire

In reply #4 below, some details of a Newhouse study, the same or similar to the one linked above...

New study: Quitting Smoking Gradually May Be Best Option | E-Cigarette Forum

the fda site is far from proof that nicotine isnt addictive, it is simply stating that nicotine replacement is not highly abusable. otc nrt is also generally much lower dosed than the ejuice available today. The new version of oxycontin is also considered not as highly abusable since it is "uncrushable" but it also leads to dependence if used for extended periods of time. last time i checked they still require you to be 18 to buy nicotine replacement products. and that last study your pointing to also uses nrt at 5 mg released over 16 hours(correct me if im misinterpreting this data) which is .3 mg per hour, also extremely low. on top of which the op in that thread posted an article stating "Nicotine, the chemical in cigarettes that makes them addictive, initially increases brain activity when a person first begins smoking, the study suggests. The brain tissue, however, quickly adapts and these brain-boosting effects disappear. Then, when a person first tries to quit, the brain’s oxygen uptake and blood flow immediately decrease by up to 17 percent, according to brain scans" which supports what im saying. ill read the study the article is citing in one second but i have to piss first

 

[coralsands]

also the post your citing is a study of 4 weeks in length (again at low dosages). in my experience even opiates take longer than that to actually get to a point where you will experience withdrawal significant enough to be noticed(again only my personal experience) . on top of that the people in this study from what i can tell were using it specifically for the study and not to get a specific affect from the substance its self which makes a difference from a behavioral standpoint(which is needed to actually get you to the point of physical dependence with any drug in my experience and from the other addicts i have talked to). now im sure nrt can be used without dependence when used for short alotments of time but this is about ejuice being used for a pick me up much like coffee. ejuice is more pleasurable to use as it doesnt itch or irritate skin like patches or generally taste disgusting like gum and it comes in any flavor you want. on top of this im fairly sure i just read that fda site specifically saying that nicotine is addictive, just not likely to be abused in nrt form. but .... it im sick of reading this much and not actually learning something useful so i will fully admit that its possible nicotine is not addictive when used in never smokers in low dosages. yall can has this one

 

[JohnnyVsGirl]

I went away from vaping for awhile after I quit cigarettes, then I went low carb. I've found the sweet vapes curb my cravings for carbs. Vaping is a tool. If vaping strawberry cream keeps me from packing on the pounds because I'd rather have a slice of cake, so be it. I've managed to kick cigarettes and carbs, thanks to vaping.

 

[unixunderground]

After having vaped some more, I am still liking it but I really can't stand the harsher throat hit that comes at higher nic levels.

I tried lowering the voltage but that didn't do too much. So I then tried to do 100% VG but my Kangertech Emow refused to wick it.

At this point I am therefore looking to upgrade to something able to handle pure VG, as to further reduce TH. After looking at some options, rebuildable drippers though perhaps "best", seem like way too much hassle for a casual hobbyist like me.

So I have been looking at box mods with sub-ohms tanks. In particular, I have been taking a look at Sigelei's 150w mod, with an Aspire Triton tank.

Would this be any good for my purposes? Once again I am looking to minimize TH, and vape 100% unflavored VG.
And if so, should I use 0,3 0,4 or 1,8 ohm coils?

 

[puffon]

Depending on your brand of unflavored nic, some will have more TH and harshness.

 

[englishmick]

After having vaped some more, I am still liking it but I really can't stand the harsher throat hit that comes at higher nic levels.

I tried lowering the voltage but that didn't do too much. So I then tried to do 100% VG but my Kangertech Emow refused to wick it.

At this point I am therefore looking to upgrade to something able to handle pure VG, as to further reduce TH. After looking at some options, rebuildable drippers though perhaps "best", seem like way too much hassle for a casual hobbyist like me.

So I have been looking at box mods with sub-ohms tanks. In particular, I have been taking a look at Sigelei's 150w mod, with an Aspire Triton tank.

Would this be any good for my purposes? Once again I am looking to minimize TH, and vape 100% unflavored VG.
And if so, should I use 0,3 0,4 or 1,8 ohm coils?

I think the trick with pure VG is not to be too aggressive in terms of resistance and power. It doesn't wick as well as PG. With low resistance or high power you are likely to burn more than the wick can push through. I use 1.5 at 10W in a Lemo and it's fine. Hardly any throat hit, which is how I like it. If I raise the power over 12W it gets dodgy and dries out sometimes. I've seen a Nautilus run fine with VG at around 20W.

 

[VNeil]

also the post your citing is a study of 4 weeks in length (again at low dosages). in my experience even opiates take longer than that to actually get to a point where you will experience withdrawal significant enough to be noticed(again only my personal experience) . on top of that the people in this study from what i can tell were using it specifically for the study and not to get a specific affect from the substance its self which makes a difference from a behavioral standpoint(which is needed to actually get you to the point of physical dependence with any drug in my experience and from the other addicts i have talked to). now im sure nrt can be used without dependence when used for short alotments of time but this is about ejuice being used for a pick me up much like coffee. ejuice is more pleasurable to use as it doesnt itch or irritate skin like patches or generally taste disgusting like gum and it comes in any flavor you want. on top of this im fairly sure i just read that fda site specifically saying that nicotine is addictive, just not likely to be abused in nrt form. but .... it im sick of reading this much and not actually learning something useful so i will fully admit that its possible nicotine is not addictive when used in never smokers in low dosages. yall can has this one

I gave you some links with searchable words, names and phrases. If you are already "sick of reading this much" then you are likely uninterested in exploring further. I have no ax to grind here, nor any interest to search and compile links to studies I've seen referenced on this and other sites. Good luck in your quest for the truth on this.

 

[VNeil]

After having vaped some more, I am still liking it but I really can't stand the harsher throat hit that comes at higher nic levels.

I tried lowering the voltage but that didn't do too much. So I then tried to do 100% VG but my Kangertech Emow refused to wick it.

At this point I am therefore looking to upgrade to something able to handle pure VG, as to further reduce TH. After looking at some options, rebuildable drippers though perhaps "best", seem like way too much hassle for a casual hobbyist like me.

So I have been looking at box mods with sub-ohms tanks. In particular, I have been taking a look at Sigelei's 150w mod, with an Aspire Triton tank.

Would this be any good for my purposes? Once again I am looking to minimize TH, and vape 100% unflavored VG.
And if so, should I use 0,3 0,4 or 1,8 ohm coils?

Try adding 10% distilled water to the 100% VG. That will thin it without adding TH like PG does. And of course you can vary that percentage to suit.

If you want high nic level, but minimal TH you are probably better off with higher resistance coils, which are more appropriate for lower wattage levels. The main purpose of a "sub-ohm tank" is to make big clouds, or maximize flavor, either resulting in max TH.

In a way, though, and perhaps very directly, you are just playing games and trading numbers. There is more to life than eJuice nic level. You night find 24mg in an EVOD comparable to 6-12mg in the Triton in terms of actual nic dosage in your bloodstream. And one or the other may deliver less harshness/TH.

You also want to research brands of Nic that are least harsh. And i'd be interested in that list too . I bought all my nic from MFS. MFS is generally said to be peppery but not particularly harsh. So I don't know (but would like to know!) what if anything can be done to smooth that out. And you are in the EU so your sourcing may have to be very different anyway. I would typically only buy from USA sources, just to minimize freight and customs issues.

 

[mosspa]

Do you have any studies showing that nicotine is specifically not addictive? if not then what your saying is akin to saying that since we do not have any studies concluding that deer have eyesight, we can likely conclude that deer cannot in fact see. Now I am not as riled up as before and I am genuinely curious as to what research everyone is getting their conclusions from? or is it specifically the lack of research?
also, in my defense, I think we are kind of playing down the power of habitual addictions such as gambling. I have heard about a study that gave gambling addicts amphetamine with a non gambling control group and the gambling addicts responded less to the amphetamine than the non gamblers. I will try to find the study now.

The word "addiction" has little real meaning anymore, since it can be applied to sex, internet, gambling, food, etc. There are plenty of studies in non-smokers that fail to demonstrate any kind of dependence, at all. Personally I have vaped for 4 months continually, and when I stoped for the summer, I had no kinds of symptoms of dependence, psychological, or otherwise. As a matter of fact, classes start tomorrow, and I have been vaping for the last 5 days or so trying to get accustomed to it again. Since I do all my vaping with 45-48 mg/ml nicotine, using a SmokTech glass chamber cartomizer (EVOD clone), I found the first couple drags pretty intense, the first one causing me to cough the vapor out my nose

 

[mosspa]

Gambling Addicts' Brains Don't Have The Same Opioid Systems As Others
THERE WE GO. Anyone else having problems trying to post here? ok so this is an article citing the study, i searched the study citation in google and all that came up was some website with a pdf in french. so thats annoying. To be honest though Iv looked into research before, Im not really sure how to search for studies other than through google.(that quality high school education kicking in)

First, the author of the review piece appears to be an idiot. Nowhere does he mention where the work was done, the title of the paper, and the authors (he mentions on person that I presume is an author, but doesn't even give his affiliation). With so little information it is hard to do an exhaustive search.

Anyway, about doing searches for things related to medical research, the best source is pubmed. The best way to get there is to do a Google search for "entrez pubmed". Click on the hit that says only "entrez pubmed". That should bring you to the National Library of Medicine PubMed Database Search Page (which is an index of hundreds of thousands of medical research studies, most of which have an abstract written in English, and some federally funded studies have free access to the entire journal article). If you have user access at some university library, you will be able to download a great majority of the complete articles for free.

In the search box (after the for, and where the cursor should be when you load the search page), you put in what you are searching for. Like Google, pubmed uses implies 'ands' so, for example, you were searching for a specific research team made up of John T. Smith, George A. Jones and Paula Myers you would put "Smith JT Jones GA Myers P" in the search box (in pub med the initials go together after the last name the way I have typed it). That will give you every article published by the team. You can also put "Google-like" search phrases (only nouns), for example if you wanted to find out studies related to nicotine dependence you would put "nicotine dependence" in the box. If you wanted to find articles that specifically mention nicotine dependence, you would use quotes and put " "nicotine dependence" " in the box. The more you use it the better you will get at it.

Good Luck

 

[mosspa]

After having vaped some more, I am still liking it but I really can't stand the harsher throat hit that comes at higher nic levels.

I tried lowering the voltage but that didn't do too much. So I then tried to do 100% VG but my Kangertech Emow refused to wick it.

At this point I am therefore looking to upgrade to something able to handle pure VG, as to further reduce TH. After looking at some options, rebuildable drippers though perhaps "best", seem like way too much hassle for a casual hobbyist like me.

So I have been looking at box mods with sub-ohms tanks. In particular, I have been taking a look at Sigelei's 150w mod, with an Aspire Triton tank.

Would this be any good for my purposes? Once again I am looking to minimize TH, and vape 100% unflavored VG.
And if so, should I use 0,3 0,4 or 1,8 ohm coils?

Like a good scotch, throat hit is an acquired taste. I vaped for the fall 2014 semester, took a month off over Christmas break then resumed for spring semester 16 weeks. Like I've said many times, neither pause was accompanied by any withdrawal symptoms. Last week I started vaping again in order to get ready for this Fall semester, that starts tomorrow. The throat hit with the first drag was overpowering (48 mg/ml EVOD-type SmokTech glass chamber cartomizer and a large adjustable battery). I quickly remembered that the way to deal with the throat hit was to draw only small amounts of vapor into the mouth before inhaling. So, assuming you are interested in nicotine, not just inhaling glycerol vapor, then I suggest you acclimatize yourself that way (small puffs, gradually increasing)

 

[mosspa]

Gambling Addicts' Brains Don't Have The Same Opioid Systems As Others
THERE WE GO. Anyone else having problems trying to post here? ok so this is an article citing the study, i searched the study citation in google and all that came up was some website with a pdf in french. so thats annoying. To be honest though Iv looked into research before, Im not really sure how to search for studies other than through google.(that quality high school education kicking in)

I think I fount the correct "Mick I" in pubmed (does pet studies with alcohol addiction, etc). A journal form of that paper does not appear to have been published. However, that doesn't mean it isn't "in press". It can take some journals a very long time to publish an article once they receive a first submission. I've had articles that have gone over a year from when I first submitted them. Look at the process... the authors send the article off to a journal, journal receives article and gets it to content review for determination of whether it is in the scope of the journal, then two or three scientists doing similar work are identified and sent the article (peer-review process), then the peer-reviewers procrastinate until the journal's editor gets on their backs, article revision requests are sent back to the journal, journal sends article back to author with recommended revisions. Then, the author makes revisions, and repeats the whole process over again. Since most articles are not accepted without revision, depending on each link in the chain, it can take a long time. In the case of the research under discussion, the conference was in late 2014, and we have no idea how close the authors were to a final publication-ready document. My students an I presented a poster the first week of June at a behavioral neuroscience conference. I am just getting to the final edits of the paper we will submit for publication.

 

[Maurice Pudlo]

Why not?

The short answer is, there is a stigma attached to nicotine, and secondary to that stigma are very real effects which are cast upon those who do decide to vape.

Personally I feel nature made the very best set of rules, do whatever you damn well please, if you live great, if you don't great too.

Our jumble of safety nets and be huggy kissy kinder gentler to one another laws has only served to push us to the point of over population.

We could do with a decade or two of natures law, that might just get us back on track population wise.

You ask "Why not?", I say pass the koolaid brother, I'm tired and old.

Maurice

 

[AndriaD]

Why not?

The short answer is, there is a stigma attached to nicotine, and secondary to that stigma are very real effects which are cast upon those who do decide to vape.

Personally I feel nature made the very best set of rules, do whatever you damn well please, if you live great, if you don't great too.

Our jumble of safety nets and be huggy kissy kinder gentler to one another laws has only served to push us to the point of over population.

We could do with a decade or two of natures law, that might just get us back on track population wise.

You ask "Why not?", I say pass the koolaid brother, I'm tired and old.

Maurice

Hey Maurice, long time no type! I was just wondering the other day why we didn't see you around anymore.

Andria