Vaping nicotine as a never-smoker, why not?

[Maurice Pudlo]

Hey Maurice, long time no type! I was just wondering the other day why we didn't see you around anymore.

Andria

Hey there Andria, I took a break for a number of reasons, the constant talk of impending regs against vaping was quite honestly on top of that list.

I certainly miss conversations like this though, as well I miss the good natured helpful people.

On topic, I think some folk struggle with peer pressure and vaping with or without nicotine might help these people resist the urge to fall into lockstep with smoking or drug using friends. This is the case with one of my stepchildren at least, I do not wholeheartedly approve however as he is yet to be 18 and I have to be the mature adult in his life. We're it legal I still would not support it, nicotine is a potentially dangerous substance at high enough doses, I don't think he is as of yet able to understand that fact.

Like most kids his age, he has found a way around legalities and parental blessing and secured a "vape", I hate that term by the way. In any case he gets the gear and I take it away. I got smokes, drugs, and liquor when I was far younger than he, I'm sure a fair number of us have too. It's part and parcel to growing up, if your bright enough it doesn't destroy your life, unfortunately many aren't blessed with such illumination.

How any of this might relate to an adult that might decide to vape nicotine I am not going to pretend to know, I just feel to each his own. I know why I started smoking, just as well as I know why I started vaping, who but each individual can know why they do anything?

For the record I have a brother that blows bubbles out of cut straws, its his version of smoking. I vape, mom smokes, he blows bubbles. From the outside I'm quite certain its an odd sight when we are all together doing our individual thing.

I think in all seriousness that people just want to fit in with others we admire, to that end we do things that may or may not be healthy or very wise. I don't think there is much place to worry about it at our level. I am no scientist, I am not about to devote my life to research aimed at the very finer points of what vaping will do to my own body, I'm satisfied enough that I'm still here and in better health than when I was a smoker.

Maurice

 

[WharfRat1976]

It sounds inflated to me as well. However, it may not be as far off I would have imagined, as I look at the CDC mortality and morbidity statistics from 2011. They reported that 207,339 people had lung cancer and 156,953 people died of it. Now 157K (and that would assume 100% of all lung cancer deaths were in smokers) is clearly a lot less 480K. I also looked at lung function and COPD mortality rates and got another 3000 there. Where they really get a break is that the cardiopulmonary mortality rate was 880K. So, well over a million people died of diseases that have been linked to smoking. Are a little less than half of them attributable to smoking? It's anybody's guess. But, in that 480K number I'm sure there were many cases where a smoking-related bias was a factor in death classification.

You forgot to add that not one of those deaths was from nicotine dependence lolz.

 

[WharfRat1976]

I went away from vaping for awhile after I quit cigarettes, then I went low carb. I've found the sweet vapes curb my cravings for carbs. Vaping is a tool. If vaping strawberry cream keeps me from packing on the pounds because I'd rather have a slice of cake, so be it. I've managed to kick cigarettes and carbs, thanks to vaping.

Lost 50 lbs on the vapes[emoji41]

 

[Racehorse]

It's part and parcel to growing up, if your bright enough it doesn't destroy your life, unfortunately many aren't blessed with such illumination.

It's not always about illumination though. Then there are the things people try once or twice, and the combination of their particular metabolism / brain and the substance itself is a disaster. There are many substances that are addictive even after once or twice, and highly so in some people.

I just talked to a friend of mine, a 65 year old woman, who underwent back surgery recently and told me the kinds of painkillers she was on put her into withdrawal and I mean serious withdrawal after only several weeks. So much so that she had to seek medical attention.

YOu just never know.

 

[mosspa]

You forgot to add that not one of those deaths was from nicotine dependence lolz.

Huh?

 

[mosspa]

It's not always about illumination though. Then there are the things people try once or twice, and the combination of their particular metabolism / brain and the substance itself is a disaster. There are many substances that are addictive even after once or twice, and highly so in some people.

I just talked to a friend of mine, a 65 year old woman, who underwent back surgery recently and told me the kinds of painkillers she was on put her into withdrawal and I mean serious withdrawal after only several weeks. So much so that she had to seek medical attention.

YOu just never know.

Actually, most of the therapeutic data on opiates suggests that people who are actually in severe pain, do not become dependent on opiates unless they continue to use them after the "real" pain is gone (e.g. Rush Limbaugh). I had a hemicolonectomy in 2001 and was on ad lib morphine for a week while I was in the hospital. I never got high or ever experienced a pleasurable reaction to the morphine. Also, after that week, I never thought about taking morphine, or any other opiate, again.

 

[AndriaD]

It's not always about illumination though. Then there are the things people try once or twice, and the combination of their particular metabolism / brain and the substance itself is a disaster. There are many substances that are addictive even after once or twice, and highly so in some people.

I just talked to a friend of mine, a 65 year old woman, who underwent back surgery recently and told me the kinds of painkillers she was on put her into withdrawal and I mean serious withdrawal after only several weeks. So much so that she had to seek medical attention.

YOu just never know.

Very true. If you took a survey of occupations and gave an IQ test to a large AA meeting, you'd find a large group of bright and talented people -- being "bright" doesn't have one iota to do with addiction -- in fact, there's some (anecdotal) evidence that brighter people are more prone to it than others!

Andria

 

[unixunderground]

Try adding 10% distilled water to the 100% VG. That will thin it without adding TH like PG does. And of course you can vary that percentage to suit.

If you want high nic level, but minimal TH you are probably better off with higher resistance coils, which are more appropriate for lower wattage levels. The main purpose of a "sub-ohm tank" is to make big clouds, or maximize flavor, either resulting in max TH.

In a way, though, and perhaps very directly, you are just playing games and trading numbers. There is more to life than eJuice nic level. You night find 24mg in an EVOD comparable to 6-12mg in the Triton in terms of actual nic dosage in your bloodstream. And one or the other may deliver less harshness/TH.

You also want to research brands of Nic that are least harsh. And i'd be interested in that list too . I bought all my nic from MFS. MFS is generally said to be peppery but not particularly harsh. So I don't know (but would like to know!) what if anything can be done to smooth that out. And you are in the EU so your sourcing may have to be very different anyway. I would typically only buy from USA sources, just to minimize freight and customs issues.

It's unfortunately illegal to order nicotine outside the EEA here, so I don't really have much choice, but I'll look into different brands

I guess I'll just have to try out various juice solutions.
Is there any setup in particular you would recommend with TH minimization in mind within $300, wanting to upgrade from an EVOD-like solution?

Like a good scotch, throat hit is an acquired taste. I vaped for the fall 2014 semester, took a month off over Christmas break then resumed for spring semester 16 weeks. Like I've said many times, neither pause was accompanied by any withdrawal symptoms. Last week I started vaping again in order to get ready for this Fall semester, that starts tomorrow. The throat hit with the first drag was overpowering (48 mg/ml EVOD-type SmokTech glass chamber cartomizer and a large adjustable battery). I quickly remembered that the way to deal with the throat hit was to draw only small amounts of vapor into the mouth before inhaling. So, assuming you are interested in nicotine, not just inhaling glycerol vapor, then I suggest you acclimatize yourself that way (small puffs, gradually increasing)

You are right, there are definitely certain drawing techniques that help minimize it. Going gradually definitely seems to help. But I think the vaping hardware has a substantial role in it too. I am now trying to determine what the best setup will be for getting the most nicotine in the fewest draws possible and least TH.

---
BTW: This just came out: E-cigarettes are 95 percent less harmful than tobacco -UK study| Reuters
This made headlines in most media publications today, so I predict a huge influx of non-smokers will start vaping nicotine in the very near future.

 

[VNeil]

Is there any setup in particular you would recommend with TH minimization in mind within $300, wanting to upgrade from an EVOD-like solution?

I've never compared gear to figure this out. If you want something better than an EVOD, then in my limited experience the solution would probably be a Nautilus *or* a Kanger Subtank Mini, or something in the same classes (those are just a few things I'm familiar with that might be best and are popular and easily sourced). For a mod, any variable wattage mod of up to 20W will do, because you probably won't want to run any tank above 20W, in order to minimize TH. You'd probably want a mod that goes down to 7W or lower, on the low end.

 

[mosspa]

I've never compared gear to figure this out. If you want something better than an EVOD, then in my limited experience the solution would probably be a Nautilus *or* a Kanger Subtank Mini, or something in the same classes (those are just a few things I'm familiar with that might be best and are popular and easily sourced). For a mod, any variable wattage mod of up to 20W will do, because you probably won't want to run any tank above 20W, in order to minimize TH. You'd probably want a mod that goes down to 7W or lower, on the low end.

If Wattage equals [(volts squared) divided by resistance], then wouldn't a variable voltage battery be just as appropriate because if you know the resistance from the coil value and the voltage from the selector on the battery you have all the information to determine wattage? So, other than for convenience, is there any advantage to a variable wattage mod?

 

[VNeil]

If Wattage equals [(volts squared) divided by resistance], then wouldn't a variable voltage mod be just as appropriate because if you know the resistance from the coil value and the voltage from the selector on the mod you have all the information to determine wattage? So, other than for convenience, is there any advantage to a variable wattage mod?

Just convenience, and eliminating the need to reset the mod when the atty is changed. I used to believe VW was a marketing thing (I owned a couple VV Provaris),for the reasons you mention. You are just changing voltage in a different way. But....

What you are really doing with a mod is setting the power, the voltage is irrelevant. Given that VW is so mainstream, why deal with the math?

Quickly... you own a Provari, 14W maximum (maybe, sort of). Your Atty is 1.6R. What is the max voltage to get to 14W? You got 5 seconds to answer. If it takes longer, you really ought to own a VW. You shouldn't have to think that hard to set a vape.

I need a calculator or spreadsheet to figure out where to set my Provaris although I have a very rough sense of what certain resistances can be taken to.

I like my Provaris but I do not like the VV aspect (these are the older P2.5 models). If you exceed some wattage threshold you get an error number. First, you need to carry a cheat sheet of the error numbers. But you can assume if you are pushing the volts, and you get an error, it is probably an over limit. The problem is, as best I understand it, that there is no specific voltage (wattage) that will trigger that error. Not only does it vary from sample to sample (and they acknowledge that in their docs I think), but when you are at the bleeding edge, you may get a couple hits and then an error. Which is frustrating. So you have to back it down to get a conservative buffer between your setting and the edge of the envelope of your sample.

Now, that is a Provari P2.5. Other VV mods may work differently, check the manual.

(I kind of think that VV Provari was designed wrong. Rather than error out, the thing ought to just drop down to the max voltage it is willing to deliver to the atty in use, but maybe they thought that through and had some reason to nix it... or maybe just have a Warp 9 setting (max afterburners))

Now, given the effort it took me to explain the above, and the effort it took you to read that and maybe figure out what I was trying to say, wouldn't it be a hell of a lot easier to set your 14W mod to 14W and be done with it? Or 10W if you decide that 10W with a certain atty "works" for your 50mg wonder hit juice?

Most people looking for an economical VW mod now in the range we are talking seem to buy an iStick 20W or 30W. They are like 30-35 bucks. They may not last forever, but just buy 2 or 3 . And only the 50W has a rep for burning houses down

 

[mosspa]

Yes, if I really cared about power. I set my voltage to 'taste'. Technically, when I am increasing the voltage, I'm increasing the power at the same current and resistance. I'm not sure why one needs to care about the 'absolute' accuracy of the power estimation if they are getting done what the want just by playing with the voltage. My newest batteries are continuously variable voltage (by twisting the sleeve ring. I just twist to the point that I'm getting the maximum tolerable (throat hit) vape.

 

[WharfRat1976]

Actually, most of the therapeutic data on opiates suggests that people who are actually in severe pain, do not become dependent on opiates unless they continue to use them after the "real" pain is gone (e.g. Rush Limbaugh). I had a hemicolonectomy in 2001 and was on ad lib morphine for a week while I was in the hospital. I never got high or ever experienced a pleasurable reaction to the morphine. Also, after that week, I never thought about taking morphine, or any other opiate, again.

You are a non addict. You have shed that fact ad nauseum. You will never understand addiction as hard as you try.

 

[WharfRat1976]

Very true. If you took a survey of occupations and gave an IQ test to a large AA meeting, you'd find a large group of bright and talented people -- being "bright" doesn't have one iota to do with addiction -- in fact, there's some (anecdotal) evidence that brighter people are more prone to it than others!

Andria

Yes, above average intelligence but people who would normally not mix. wink[emoji6] [emoji6] wink

 

[VNeil]

Yes, if I really cared about power. I set my voltage to 'taste'. Technically, when I am increasing the voltage, I'm increasing the power at the same current and resistance. I'm not sure why one needs to care about the 'absolute' accuracy of the power estimation if they are getting done what the want just by playing with the voltage. My newest batteries are continuously variable voltage (by twisting the sleeve ring. I just twist to the point that I'm getting the maximum tolerable (throat hit) vape.

I think you are using basically the same setup all the time... an EVOD style atty with either the same resistance coil all the time, or the coil resistances do not vary much. In that case, yes, you get at least rough calibrated to a certain voltage, and while you think in terms of voltage, various voltage levels equate to certain wattages (more or less). Where you start thinking about power is when you start swapping back and forth between sub ohm and higher ohm coils, and especially rebuilding (just because rebuilding allows one to build to any resistance and that is not always an exact science).

I don't think most vapers using VW devices are really thinking about "absolute power", as in they think they need 21.5W or some specific and precise wattage. But I know, for example, that my sweet spot is usually around 20-25W. If I remove a 1.8R atty and install a 0.5R atty, and my device is set somewhere in that 20-25W range, I know I'm in a reasonable ballpark, from which I can dial in quickly. If I were set to 4.5V with a 1.8R coil, and then installed a 0.5R coil, I would need to do some math to figure out a reasonable starting voltage, and that math is solving for wattage, in some form. If I fire that 0.5R coil at the same 4.5V I might be a very unhappy camper, depending on the ATTY (my kanger Subtank Mini might not like that at all).

ETA: I'm struggling to explain why VV makes perfect sense with an EVOD style atty running ~2R coils, but it doesn't make sense when you get into higher power atty's and drippers. Totally different set of problems (actually certain problems arise that you haven't seen yet)

 

[VNeil]

Yes, if I really cared about power. I set my voltage to 'taste'. Technically, when I am increasing the voltage, I'm increasing the power at the same current and resistance. I'm not sure why one needs to care about the 'absolute' accuracy of the power estimation if they are getting done what the want just by playing with the voltage. My newest batteries are continuously variable voltage (by twisting the sleeve ring. I just twist to the point that I'm getting the maximum tolerable (throat hit) vape.

I'm going to try another angle. Power is a universal language among vapers. If you tell me you have an EVOD running 6W I understand that. If you have a 1 ohm dripper running 25W I get that, I know at least approximately the vape you are getting. And regardless of the resistance of the dripper, if I know you run it at 50W I have a pretty close idea of your vape.

If you tell me you are running your mod at 4.2V it means nothing to me, without knowing the resistance of the coil, and at that point I am computing wattage, at least roughly in my head, at some level to relate to the vape you are getting.

If you tell me you are running your mod at 14W I don't really have to know the resistance of your coil to know the vape you are getting (although it does help to refine things, for sure).

If you tell me you are running your EVOD at 4.2V then it actually does mean something. Only because an EVOD is an EVOD and everyone had a similar experience because they all use higher resistance coils. But once you get away from an EVOD, voltage has less and less meaning without calculating your way to wattage.

 

[Rossum]

My recollection is that Evod coils were available in various resistances; 1.5 ohms, 1.8 ohms, and 2.2 ohms at least. So even there, the voltage alone doesn't provide a very precise picture.

 

[VNeil]

My recollection is that Evod coils were available in various resistances; 1.5 ohms, 1.8 ohms, and 2.2 ohms at least. So even there, the voltage alone doesn't provide a very precise picture.

Yea, I thought about that when I was typing. But I'm thinking mosspa is basically using the same resistance coils all the time, or if he varies, maybe something like 1.5R <--> 1.8R and my dim recollection is that the differences were not earthshaking in terms of voltage/power/vape. It was very subtle?

At 4V, a 1.5R coil is powering 10.67W. At 2.2R and 4V it is powering 7.27W. Considering those are about the widest extremes you can do with an EVOD, that is pretty close.

Now consider a 0.5R dripper verses a 1.8R dripper (and I have both at the moment). At 4V, the difference is 32W verses 8.9W. That is a HUGE difference. Depending on the atty and the coiling and wicking, swapping into the 0.5R coil could end in a horrendously bad burnt hit. I don't think that would happen with an EVOD. And at least in my mind this is where the difference lies.

Plus, consider that those eGo spinner style VV batteries don't typically have a huge range of voltage, so it was difficult to get yourself in trouble. At least the ones I used had a very narrow swing, and were not even capable of putting out enough power to do any real "damage" (in terms of a very unpleasant dry hit).

And I want to reiterate that I'm just trying to explain why VV works with an eGo/EVOD setup, but not so well as the potential power levels increase when you get into things like 30+ watt box mods, RDAs and such.

 

[inclination]

A couple of people I know started with vaping no nic, then went to nic and now they smoke a pack every couple of days. Very backwards

 

[VNeil]

A couple of people I know started with vaping no nic, then went to nic and now they smoke a pack every couple of days. Very backwards

Why did they take up smoking?