!! WARNING !! Kanger Subtank RBA Insulator Dissolving Into my Juice !!! What should I use to make one?

[ErnieKim]

I tell you what. After I started using the rba heads in the Subtank and the Subtank mini, I won't use the occ heads unless I absolutely have to. The wicking is so much better and the flavor is much better.

Ernie,

I agree. The experiments that I'm running are all on the RBA.

I decided to run the current experiment at 25 watts. It's been running 18 hours now. It was getting pretty warm so I reduced the simulated vape (draw) time to 8 seconds and the pause between Vapes 20 seconds. Does this seem reasonable to you; is this how you would vape?

I understand that you wouldn't go 72 hours , but is everything else about right?

Like you, I only use the occ heads when I don't have time to build a new coil. I'm thing about changing wire diameter from the 28ga I'm currently using. I keep breaking coils when I stuff the cotton inside; I use a lot and large diameter since my juice is 100% VG.

Ernie

 

[erieboyz]

I use the stock coil in it and vape around 27 on the big one and 20 on the mini. I chain vape a few times a day. My draws are about 3 to 4 seconds

 

[jlwiseman]

I build mostly 0.5-0.7 ohm on my subtank mini rba. I vape anywhere from 25-43w with the clear insulators. No issues here

 

[ErnieKim]

I build mostly 0.5-0.7 ohm on my subtank mini rba. I vape anywhere from 25-43w with the clear insulators. No issues here

What size wire do you use for your coils? Do you use cotton for your wicks?

Kim

 

[jlwiseman]

Anywhere from 24-28ga... Japanese cotton wicking

 

[ErnieKim]

The sub-ohm experiment has been running for about 60 hours now. The last time I looked there was no obvious change in appearance of the brown insulator. I'm glad that I'm using plain glycerine, the cheap stuff from Walmart, because I've made a pretty good dent in the jug!

I plan to stop it at 72 hours like the previous experiments. I'll repeat the hardness tests and calculate the effects.

 

[ErnieKim]

I build mostly 0.5-0.7 ohm on my subtank mini rba. I vape anywhere from 25-43w with the clear insulators. No issues here

I didn't notice until I re-read your post that you are still using the clear insulator. I thought everyone had replaced them so I didn't bother reporting my results on my experiment on the clear insulator. I ran it at the normal rather than sub-ohm and the insulator failed after only 24 hours. It was cracked and a corner of it fell out. There was no discerable change in the material hardness and no signs of melting. It fell apart into several pieces when I removed it.
Breaking up like it did jives with most of the reports. It appears that the material is more brittle than the brown one. This is understandable sine the hardness of it before the experiment was greater than the brown one.
So the only contradiction is the report of melting by JC. Of course I did not run the experiment at the higher temperatures that you and JC run at, but I would have expected to see some softening of the material if it was prone to melting.
So, it is what it is. Perhaps yours is a slightly different material, it wouldn't suprise me in the least; nuff said on that topic.

 

[ErnieKim]

The brown insulator showed no change in hardness after 72 hours. I got some requests to run it at 40 watts but probably won't unless I hear from a few more folks.

 

[RyGuy83]

yea idk, i dont use the rba ever, and for the most part put my subtanks(og and mini) down the minute my Goblin arrived and never looked back. It blows the subtank away. I did for a while however,and this is what i much prefer doing rather than screwing with the rba section. Rebuild the stock occ heads with parallel 24-28g getting .3ohm now in the heads,and it just rips way better with a build like that,imo. Before that for more airflow/flavor i tried putting in vertical coil build in the rba section,and it seems to improve airflow a little. If i still used my subtank i would still prefer to use the occ head. Now time will tell if either of these tanks i got coming in will replace my goblin.


-ryguy

 

[ErnieKim]

yea idk, i dont use the rba ever, and for the most part put my subtanks(og and mini) down the minute my Goblin arrived and never looked back. It blows the subtank away. I did for a while however,and this is what i much prefer doing rather than screwing with the rba section. Rebuild the stock occ heads with parallel 24-28g getting .3ohm now in the heads,and it just rips way better with a build like that,imo. Before that for more airflow/flavor i tried putting in vertical coil build in the rba section,and it seems to improve airflow a little. If i still used my subtank i would still prefer to use the occ head. Now time will tell if either of these tanks i got coming in will replace my goblin.




-ryguy

Do you leave big gaps between the coil wraps like they came originally?
Thanks

 

[ErnieKim]

I build mostly 0.5-0.7 ohm on my subtank mini rba. I vape anywhere from 25-43w with the clear insulators. No issues here

I've decided to do an experiment at 45 watts. I'll use the same parameters as before. If the brown insulator will stand up to this, it will stand up to pretty much anyone's vaping style.

I'm just suprised Kanger doesn't do what I'm doing, it's not rocket science. I saw a photo online showing their "testing". I'm sure it was in response to this issue. It was one guy sitting in a corner puffing. I'll see if I can find it again and post it.

Ernie

 

[ErnieKim]

I started the final experiment at noon on the 8th. It's held up well so far.

The tank is over 120 degrees on the outside surface.

One of the O-rings gave out already; not surprising. Perhaps I can get Kanger to donate some to the cause. The temperature is not too different than I've noticed during "chain" use though; fairly representative, just over a longer period of time.

 

[ErnieKim]

Well the insulator failed. Didn't even make 48 hrs. The edges started swelling. I repeated the hardness test and the material was mush, I couldn't even get a reading off of it.

So now we know the limit; if it starts getting hot to the touch on the outside, the insulator is going to fail.
Does this mean that yours is going to fail? Who knows? There's not enough consistency from one part to the next to predict with any confidence.

I measured the "Rockwell" hardness when I first got the insulators. They were not even close to the specification of a medium-grade Peek material. It's advertised as Peek, OK, but what "grade level" is it really? Don't we deserve to know in light of the fact that we have to do the research and development on these things. I would be willing to pay a couple bucks more for a "high-quality Peek" insulator.

KANGER, if you are listening, put a very high quality PEEK insulator on you USA parts website, as an "upgrade", if you like. They would sell like crazy. Charge a 500% profit if you like, I'll bet they would still be cheap. Customers would really appreciate this, it would be great "press", it would show that you care about your customers and you're "in the trenches" with them to make a Great tank even better, and truly appropriate for sub-ohm.
Someone else is going to do it if you don't, I guarantee it.

Funny though, I'm right back to where I was when I started this thread; I'm back to looking for a better insulator for the Subtanks, one that will actually withstand the temperatures that it advertises. Peek material should hold up much better than this one did.
In summary, my finding says that performance is questionable at best for sub-ohm vaping. Unless you find a better quality "aftermarket" insulator.
So here I go again, off to find a better insulator for them.

 

[Racehorse]

There are far too many of these kinds of topics lately. To me, that says something about the quality control in this industry. You can't go so fast that you crash n' burn. Vape gear is already zooming past battery technology. Time to get feet more firmly planted on ground, folks. I'm not suggesting a glacial pace, or no innovation. But certainly one that is somewhat more *deliberate* and thoughtful. Somebody has to be the "grownups" here. I remember when people thought the housing boom would go on forever....Look Mom, no Brakes!!!!!!!.....and then......

The industry better do it before the regulators do. Unmanaged growth is never good.

I'm just suprised Kanger doesn't do what I'm doing, it's not rocket science.
Ernie

It is nice of you, as a paying customer, to do the R&D…….for them and for us. I for one do appreciate it.

JC,
I don't blame you for stepping back. You took a lot of heat too.
Erniekim

I can't believe how rudely you address a fellow vaper who has a problem!

“Blame the user” is at an all time high lately. Maybe it’s a (dreadful) reaction to being paranoid about ANTZ. That's why JC took heat.

However, reading his posts, by anyone with even the semblence of what I guess is now "old fashioned values" he was asking very logical and fair questions!

Consumers do have a right to expect relative safety if they are using a product in the manner it was designed to be used. They also have a right to be informed, i.e. have information about a product that is adequate enough to make a knowledgeable decision about the product, purchasing it, and using it.

At the same time, should a paying customer really have to go through all of this to get the product that he paid for in working condition? It is not my fault the insulator melted or was damaged, and any factory defects or issues with the coils, tanks, insulators, etc should be handled by Kanger if there are issues as serious as this arising. Its just common courtesy.

Seems like a *reasonable expectation* to me. It conforms to a basic value system that many of us were brought up with, and that is that you don't waste your hard earned money, and you do have a right to expect to be treated in a reasonably respectful courteous manner by those to whom you give your trust and your money. It's the rudiments of how you teach your kids how to develop self-respect.

If he's been vaping for awhile he should know that some juices destroy tanks over other juices.

They can't know that if they don't know what the tanks and coil materials are, and what temps and such they can be used at:

I don't know what the original material was, Kanger won't tell me. I use cinnamon in my juice. They won't tell me what the replacement is made out of either.

I have no idea why they changed material again, but I think it is safe to assume the brown insulators are latest and greatest. The clear peek must have had some kind of issue also.

Thanks what miffs me is when I bought it the site said they were the new insulators and now when I go to check of course that statement has disappeared.

Also the FOURTH revision? So there is now a revision after these brown insulators? Man, when will it end?

When vapers stop sending money for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th time, step back.....

We teach others how to treat us. Repeated acquiesance makes practices become *customary*.

(thinking back to the protank w/glue, then the almost immed release of the improved one w/out glue, then the almost immed release of the one with a removable drip tip) rinse, repeat, rinse repeat). If you keep spending money over and over, while companies send out products “before they are ripe”, you can expect to keep paying 3 times.

“We shall sell no wine before it’s time” is now a dead meme, I guess? I must be too old fashioned.

This is like sending a racehorse out to the track before they are properly conditioned and race-ready. Greedy, unethical owners do that, but the horses end up injured or worse…..injuring other humans and horses when they break down.


I often wonder if those who claim nicotine is addictive are right. Why? Because it is somewhat unusual to see people not walk away after being burned numerous times……….... unless they are UNABLE to walk away.

 

[ErnieKim]

I totally agree with you on all points Racehorse. I'm thinking hard right now on how we can use the power of this forum to get the vendors to provide information on both ejuice and equipment. It really is absurd when you think about it; this stuff Can impact our health, what in the world are they thinking?
We are well aware that they are deliberately:
1) using inferior components; to increase their profits,
2) rushing to get a product out for Xmas or other buying seasons, as was the case with the Subtank,
3) paying self-proclaimed "expert" reviewers to rant about how good their products are
It's not asking much to see some accurate specifications on what we are buying. For example, I just discovered Open Source Vapor LLC; fantastic, they list exactly what is in their juice! They still have a market edge because of their manufacturing process but we KNOW what we're putting in our bodies; kudos to them! Great plan; honesty, what a breath of fresh air? We need to run them up the flagpole as an example to other companies.
So if anyone has ideas on how to get other companies to follow their lead, Please speak up. We need to be squeaky wheels!
Petitions?, Chain-Mail emails demanding accurate specs on products, other ideas?

 

[Rizzyking]

They are not supposed to be used over 30 watts and your demanding better because you ran it at 45 watts I've had one of my subtanks since Xmas and I've run everything through at stated voltages and the insulator is still like new even though I have packets of replacements and of the dozen or so friends that have bought subtanks since Xmas including another I bought none NONE have any issue with the insulator. If your going to run things above spec your going to get problems run anything over it's spec you'll get problems issues of dissolving insulator in comparison to the number of subtanks sold is ridiculously minute well within the number that can be attributed to user error which from the one's I've seen is exactly what the problem was.

 

[ErnieKim]

They are not supposed to be used over 30 watts and your demanding better because you ran it at 45 watts I've had one of my subtanks since Xmas and I've run everything through at stated voltages and the insulator is still like new even though I have packets of replacements and of the dozen or so friends that have bought subtanks since Xmas including another I bought none NONE have any issue with the insulator. If your going to run things above spec your going to get problems run anything over it's spec you'll get problems issues of dissolving insulator in comparison to the number of subtanks sold is ridiculously minute well within the number that can be attributed to user error which from the one's I've seen is exactly what the problem was.

The idea of the experiment was to find the upper limit of temperature tolerance for the Subtank insulator; to collect real data, not second-hand speculation. The manufacturer has stated that the insulator material is PEEK, which should tolerate temperatures of between 500 to 600 degrees. This one melted at 200 degrees with a 50/50 PG/VG, no flavoring juice. How exactly would "user error" factor in here? It melted at 300 to 400 degrees below spec. Please explain your logic.

 

[ErnieKim]

well within the number that can be attributed to user error which from the one's I've seen is exactly what the problem was.

Also, Please explain the "user error" that you have seen.

 

[vincom]

.

ur testing seems to show that grade and/or quality of the peek insulator is low grade.
did kangertech know this when contracting out for the insulator?
does kangertech test the quality of the peek insulator? if so how often, i out of 100, 1000, 5000 units.

questions we like to know the answer to but, i stress but, very few incidents compared to the numbers sold have been reported, afaik.

seems kanger is trying as they did change the insulator in relatively short order but none the less what u seem to have demonstrated in an intellectual way that kanger should acknowledge or debunk the findings, at least something for the consumers concerns.
same goes for aspire.

still lovin my 2 stmini's, they have the tan insulator btw.

 

[ErnieKim]

Vincom,

My feeling is the same as yours, I don't believe that Kanger would deliberately sell items with inferior parts.

It's important to keep in mind that I did an "accelerated" test here; my result is indicative of what will happen "down the road" a bit.

Also, they likely get insulators in large quantities; hundreds or even thousands in a batch; need I say more?

It's simple enough to do so I switched it out to high quality PEEK material. Now I KNOW that it's safe, I took the material to 500 degrees F and the hardness didn't change at all.

I still think that the tank is great and well worth a little extra effort. I'm totally confident with the tank now so I can go back to worrying about what's in my juice


Take Care