Washington bill (6569) would tax tobacco substitutes (including e-cigs) at 95%, referred to Senate Ways and Means Cmte

[Roger_Lafayette]

Placebo I was refering to the sen. bill not the house one.

I'm also curious about what happened. I take it that merging it into the budget makes it harder to stop? This might be some nuance about their procedural rules perhaps ... I'm not used to thinking of a budget as something that makes permanent statutory changes.

DrMA, there's a brief report from the local CBS station in toda's media roundup. Doesn't say much, except that the one comment from a state legislator wasn't terribly positive:

One of the bill's sponsors, Rep. Reuven Carlyle, D-Seattle, said the e-cigarettes should be taxed like a tobacco product because the vapors contain nicotine.

"This nicotine product is highly concentrated," said Carlyle, "It needs to be taxes in a parallel fashion, in my view, to traditional tobacco products, especially as it evolves towards young people."

Susie Tracy, with the Washington State Medical Association, supports the change in the tax structure, citing reports of increased use among middle and high school students.

Tracy told lawmakers there have not been any studies done looking at how much healthier e-cigarettes are compared to standard cigarettes.

 

[DavidOck]

Then maybe we need to get those studies that "haven't been done" to them... and to the WSMedASSn...

 

[Alexander Mundy]

Hey, wouldn't this "Any electronic device that can be used to deliver nicotine or other substances to, the person inhaling from the device, including, but not limited to, an electronic cigarette, cigar, pipe, or hookah." also apply to the "unmentionable stuff" hardware? Maybe they would also be interested in opposing this legislation?

 

[rothenbj]

"This nicotine product is highly concentrated," said Carlyle, "It needs to be taxes in a parallel fashion, in my view, to traditional tobacco products, especially as it evolves towards young people.""

You have to love how the excuse for everything is the kids.

It's not a nicotine tax, it's a tobacco tax, thus, "This product contains no tobacco thus it needs to be taxed in a non-tobacco fashion." Kleptocrats.

 

[rothenbj]

Incidentally, the tax on cigars is not 95% of the taxable sales price, it's "For cigars, except little cigars, 95% of the taxable sales price of cigars not to exceed $0.65 per cigar."

Tobacco products tax

That means a premium cigar selling for $7 doesn't get taxed $6.65, just $.65 yet a disposable e cig would get taxed around $9.

 

[DrMA]

Finally heard back from one of the Rep's. I contacted all the members of the House Finance and Senate Ways&Means Comm's to opposed SB 6569 and HB 2795.

Thank you for taking the time to share your concerns regarding HB 2795, Investing in education by clarifying laws relating to tobacco substitutes, also known as the vaporizer bill. I and many of my fellow Republicans will work hard to prevent this bill from coming to a vote and will fight it throughout the remainder of the session, if necessary. It is apparent to me, that through the use of tobacco substitutes, people are taking steps toward a healthier life and penalizing them for doing so would be nonsense.

This bill is clearly poorly conceived in many ways, but with bothers me the most is that the Democratic sponsors of this bill clearly see you as simply sources of state revenue rather than as businesspeople and as individuals seeking healthier alternative. In my opinion, this is absolutely wrong!

Thank you again and I look forward to working with you.

Warmest Regards,

JT Wilcox
Washington State Representative
2nd Legislative District

My reply

Dear Rep. Wilcox,

Thank you for your candid reply and for considering the comments of a resident from a district other than your own. I am very pleased that there are WA representatives such as yourself who see this sort of initiative of taxing reduced risk products as nonsense. And I most definitely appreciate you making the point that the thousands of WA vapers and businesses are not merely new wallets ready for the tapping for additional state revenue, but rather individuals making significant positive impacts on public health as well as their own.

Thank you for your continued fight against the proposed WA Budget that would include the proposed confiscatory taxes on vapor products.

 

[Neloish]

Awesome! I am glad we have some on our side, in addition the coalition in the Senate has the majority, so if they get on our side this bill will not happen.

 

[Benjalotus]

Whats the current status

 

[DavidOck]

Senate Bill probably isn't going to come out of committee, but I haven't any info on the House version.

 

[DrMA]

Here's what the HB 2795 states in the "Fiscal Notes"
https://fortress.wa.gov/ofm/fnspublic/legsearch.asp?BillNumber=2795&SessionNumber=63

It is estimated that this bill will increase state revenues by $3.4 million in the 2013-15 Biennium and $38.8 million in the
2015-17 Biennium.

Much of this revenue may actually be tax revenue that was lost from reduced sales of conventional cigarettes. The
literature shows that the vast majority of e-cigarette users are current tobacco users. Hence, it is likely that there is some
reduction in consumption of conventional cigarettes as a result of this fact

This is sickening! Their intentions clearly state that they know vapers are former smokers and they want to continue robbing us to cover the "lost" revenue from tobacco. They are also fully aware of the fact that vaping reduces tobacco use. Having stated this knowledge and professed their intentions to go after an extra $40MM in taxes, this bill clearly comes across as a a criminal shakedown with mass murder undertones.

However, I see this as possibly our biggest win here in WA. We can use their own words to fight any future proposed regs for ecigs:
They say "we don't know" we cite the bill. They say "not effective", we cite the bill. They say "gateway", we cite their bill about the vast majority.

Last, but not least, they say it's about chillun, we cite the bill that clearly states it's about the money.

 

[lindsay1126]

Ok, so I have been reading over this and it just makes me sick. I sent a letter to my Representative but should I be writing my Senator? Also, what should be included in the letter? Any studies that you guys know of that I can include? Lastly, someone that understands reading this stuff more than I do, does it include online sales? Would I still be able to order from another state without having this effect me? I know that we have plenty of reservations that will not have to abide by this and just as they have done with ciggs they will open vape shops to make money, but all my favorite juices are from out of state and don't want to be limited to just that. This sucks, my husband is active duty army and we had a choice to stay here or go somewhere else and we chose here for another 3 years. Now I am scared that we are going to be stuck in a state that is going to break our bank account with taxation. I just don't understand, how a state that is ok with ......... being legal but want to tax the crap out of something that is so much better than smoking. Sorry if this is hard to read, I am just a little upset. Does anyone know what they tax .........?

 

[babyk1352012]

Ugh this is so sickening.....seriously it really is truly digusting. They say they want people to quit smoking, and we do and find a healthy alternative we enjoy, and because we like it we should be punished. Every year i hate government more and more. They pass this .... and they will get the exact opposite of what they hope for, i will finish off my supply and boycott that ..... They won't get a dime out of me at that tax rate.

Until i do run out though, i keep wondering can they ban shops from selling cartomizers, rbas, other supplies that have no nicotine online?
I can stock up all i want but if i have nothing to vape on kinda pointless. Anyone know the answer to this?

 

[Alexander Mundy]

Ugh this is so sickening.....seriously it really is truly digusting. They say they want people to quit smoking, and we do and find a healthy alternative we enjoy, and because we like it we should be punished. Every year i hate government more and more. They pass this .... and they will get the exact opposite of what they hope for, i will finish off my supply and boycott that ..... They won't get a dime out of me at that tax rate.

Until i do run out though, i keep wondering can they ban shops from selling cartomizers, rbas, other supplies that have no nicotine online?
I can stock up all i want but if i have nothing to vape on kinda pointless. Anyone know the answer to this?

"Any electronic device that can be used to deliver nicotine or
other substances to, the person inhaling from the device, including,
but not limited to, an electronic cigarette, cigar, pipe, or hookah."

 

[Tedlee]

Sounds like to me that it will come down to the taxation and/or regulation if nicotine fluid. Personally, I plan on being off the nic by then. But, i may want to vape my head off on occasion. So the question is....can they regulate all the mods out there? Not to mention the home made juice. Laws that are passed will be easier to circumvent than the laws made back in the prohibition days. Battery+wire+cotton+juice=VAPE! Easier than a still!! IMHO.

 

[DrMA]

Don't get too ahead of yourselves here. The bill (hb 2795) is still in committee and chances are it's gonna die there.

 

[DavidOck]

We can keep writing them, Reps and Sens, and hope.

And organize. If they lose the issue this time, you can be sure it will come back.

 

[Jordantii]

This will not hold up in court. Thats the problem these days. Legislation gets passed knowing full well it may not hold up in court but it gets passed anyway then gets overturned in court. Then they turn around and complain about legislating from the bench.

 

[Turnkeys]

I got this alert late in the game, CASAA's changed it's e-mail services sometime back..

There's a rally this Saturday to protest the (sneaky) house bill, posted on CASAA's FB page. Please come if you can make it.

Saturday, March 8 at 12:00pm
Washington Capital Building. in Olympia, Washington

 

[babyk1352012]

So wish i could be there, unfortunately I'm all the way in Spokane, but I will certainly be there in spirit! Be sure to let us all know who aren't close by how it went!

I got this alert late in the game, CASAA's changed it's e-mail services sometime back..

There's a rally this Saturday to protest the (sneaky) house bill, posted on CASAA's FB page. Please come if you can make it.

Saturday, March 8 at 12:00pm
Washington Capital Building. in Olympia, Washington

 

[DrMA]

I got this alert late in the game, CASAA's changed it's e-mail services sometime back..

There's a rally this Saturday to protest the (sneaky) house bill, posted on CASAA's FB page. Please come if you can make it.

Saturday, March 8 at 12:00pm
Washington Capital Building. in Olympia, Washington

Great initiative! Is there an organizational link? FB post? something that can be shared far and wide?

News: As far as I can tell, the House Finance Cmtee met today and approved an amended version of the bill that:
- defines vapor products as tobacco products, including all hardware, liquid, and accessories. The bill's language is so all ecompasing, that it could be interpreted that anything that contains nicotine falls under this definition, including tomatoes, potatoes, peppers, and all other plants from the nightshade family. It also appears that "any component" even if "sold separately" is covered, which means copper pipe, Kanthal wire, electric switches, bottle caps, and Lithium batteries among many other things are also subject to this bill.
- taxes vapor products at 75% wholesale
- in a BS move to dispel the mass murder overtones of this punitive tax, the new bill "Excludes electronic cigarettes that are prescribed by a licensed physician and purchased at a pharmacy"; as far as I know, no such ecigs exist, never existed, and none are planned to hit the market.

HFC meeting documents: https://app.leg.wa.gov/CMD/document.aspx?agency=3&year=2014&cid=1624&lid=2795

Amended bill text: https://app.leg.wa.gov/CMD/Handler....umentcontent&documentId=peuLVSdd3A4&att=false