Washington bill (6569) would tax tobacco substitutes (including e-cigs) at 95%, referred to Senate Ways and Means Cmte

[9ball_AJ]

Awesome! Look at those clouds

Any media coverage?

I emailed all the local media outlets and there was talk of the 3 major networks covering it but I'm not sure if they are there.

 

[9ball_AJ]

I was unable to attend today unfortunately

 

[cmknight]

A new amendment to the proposed house bill 2795 has surfaced which redefines the tax on nicotine liquid to 8 cents per milligram of nicotine. Absolutely outrageous.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/documents/billdocs/2013-14/Pdf/Amendments/House/2795-S AMH THAR H4509.4.pdf

Page 2, line 34 to page 3, line 8 ... means they have to also tax vegetables containing nicotine, so this does not only affect us, it affects everybody who buys groceries ("Ok ma'am. Three eggplants and a 5 lb. bag of potatoes ... Two heads of cauliflower ... One head of Broccoli ... Six tomatoes ... and four green peppers ... ... ... That'll be $179.54, please").

As well, Lines 25 and 26 on page three defines Internet as "any computer network, telephonic network, or other electronic network".


Anyone else see a problem with this?

 

[9ball_AJ]

Page 2, line 34 to page 3, line 8 ... means they have to also tax vegetables containing nicotine, so this does not only affect us, it affects everybody who buys groceries ("Ok ma'am. Three eggplants and a 5 lb. bag of potatoes ... Two heads of cauliflower ... One head of Broccoli ... Six tomatoes ... and four green peppers ... ... ... That'll be $179.54, please").

As well, Lines 25 and 26 on page three defines Internet as "any computer network, telephonic network, or other electronic network".


Anyone else see a problem with this?

A huge problem, and that has been the argument of many. Even if this law passes there is much ground to stand on to get it overthrown. We have seen 3 revisions so far, and we will see more. The Republican vote has the majority in the Senate, and my prediction is that the bill gets killed in the Senate Vote if the House Floor passes it...

 

[rothenbj]

Page 2, line 34 to page 3, line 8 ... means they have to also tax vegetables containing nicotine, so this does not only affect us, it affects everybody who buys groceries ("Ok ma'am. Three eggplants and a 5 lb. bag of potatoes ... Two heads of cauliflower ... One head of Broccoli ... Six tomatoes ... and four green peppers ... ... ... That'll be $179.54, please").

As well, Lines 25 and 26 on page three defines Internet as "any computer network, telephonic network, or other electronic network".


Anyone else see a problem with this?

Vegetables have always been a gateway to smoking. There has not been one child that didn't eat them before they started smoking. More research is needed, but there's no doubt of the correlation. The evidence is irrefutable.

 

[Bill Godshall]

Although any tax on e-cigs or nicotine is outrageous (unless they also tax gums, patches/lozenges), the proposed tax has dropped twice so far (from 95% tax on all e-cig products including mods/batteries/rechargers, down to a 75% tax, and now down to an $.08/mg tax on nicotine.

Don't know the ad valorem (i.e. percentage of price) tax rate equivalent to a $.08/mg tax on e-liquid, but it has to be lower than 75% of the price (even for 36 mg/ml e-liquid) and it doesn't apply to any mods, components or accessories.

For disposable e-cigs and refillable cartridges (that typically contain .4 to .5 ml of e-liquid), a $.08/mg tax on a 24 mg/ml disposable and a 24 mg/ml refillable cartridge would be $.77-$.96, or about a 10% tax on disposables, and about 20% tax on refillable cartridges.

16 mg/ml and 8 mg/ml cigalike products would be taxed at 2/3rds and 1/3rd (respectively) of the tax applied to 24 mg/ml cigalikes.

WA vapers and vendors have done a great job (the best yet) to protest and oppose this proposal so far. Continued vigilance is needed to kill or further reduce the proposed tax rate, and continued vigilance is occurring.

 

[9ball_AJ]

Although any tax on e-cigs or nicotine is outrageous (unless they also tax gums, patches/lozenges), the proposed tax has dropped twice so far (from 95% tax on all e-cig products including mods/batteries/rechargers, down to a 75% tax, and now down to an $.08/mg tax on nicotine.

Don't know the ad valorem (i.e. percentage of price) tax rate equivalent to a $.08/mg tax on e-liquid, but it has to be lower than 75% of the price (even for 36 mg/ml e-liquid) and it doesn't apply to any mods, components or accessories.

For disposable e-cigs and refillable cartridges (that typically contain .4 to .5 ml of e-liquid), a $.08/mg tax on a 24 mg/ml disposable and a 24 mg/ml refillable cartridge would be $.77-$.96, or about a 10% tax on disposables, and about 20% tax on refillable cartridges.

16 mg/ml and 8 mg/ml cigalike products would be taxed at 2/3rds and 1/3rd (respectively) of the tax applied to 24 mg/ml cigalikes.

WA vapers and vendors have done a great job (the best yet) to protest and oppose this proposal so far. Continued vigilance is needed to kill or further reduce the proposed tax rate, and continued vigilance is occurring.

The tax is on the total nicotine content. A 10 ml bottle of 24 mg e juice contains 240 mg of nicotine total. This is what the tax would be applied to. .08 x 240 = $19.20 tax on a 10ml bottle @ 24mg nic. It is unconscionable.

The latest amendment also puts back in the 95% tax on hardware and accessories at the wholesale level...

 

[Alexander Mundy]

While $.08 per mg tax on nicotine might be 10% for cig-alikes it is disastrous to eliquid and DIY.

Taking a quick look at a reasonable premixed eliquid online for 10ml of 24mg/ml was $5.99.
The amount of nicotine in that 10ml is 240mg total so 240 X $.08 = $19.20.
That is a 320% tax!

Worse yet for DIY, currently 250ml of 100mg/ml (just random online) is $20.99
That contains 25,000 mg of nicotine so 25,000 X $.08 = $2,000
That is a 9,528% tax!

Looks like a win for BT to me.

Edited to reflect correct math

 

[Bill Godshall]

Joe Baba of the WA Vape Association sent the following e-mail today about yesterday's rally in Olympia.


Good Morning

Shaking the cob webs out of my head and realizing it is an hour later than normal. Thanks for being patient with my delayed update; just needed to get caught up on some much needed rest.

RALLY
Even with all the curve balls thrown at us by Mother Nature, we had several hundred Vapers attend the rally at the north steps of the Capital. It was a great sight to see and the support was obvious. Representatives Muri, Reykhal, Hunt and Wilcox were guest speakers along with our Lobbyist Stu Halsan and Vaporium's Kim Thompson closed out the presentation for us. The show of strength had to send a strong message to the legislature – WE ARE NOT ROLLING OVER – WE ARE NOT EASY TARGETS – WE WILL NOT QUIT UNTIL THE BILL IS DEAD! Thanks to a strong sense of urgency and commitment, our group of manufacturers, distributors, retailers and fellow vapers all banded together, united in one-voice – collectively we were able to rally support in an effort to save our business model, and ultimately people's lives!

To see pictures, please visit https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=677078402356639&set=a.677084359022710&type=1&theater

Next Steps
Stu Halsan has given us a "To Do" list for the next couple of days. The FOCUS is on calling constituents from our own Districts (House Representatives and Senator) so we aren't calling members in districts which we don't live or work in. To find your contact information in your specific district, go to http://app.leg.wa.gov/DistrictFinder/ and make the 3 calls:

House Republicans
If your House Rep is Republican, thank him/her for supporting us and encourage them to continue opposing legislation that would add any new taxes to vaping products
House Democrats
If your Representative is either Reykhal, Blake, Goodman, Hurst, Kirby, Moscoso, Pettigrew, Santos and Sells, please do the same and extend a Thank You for opposing HB2795 and ask for continued support against a new tax on vaping products.
Senators
If your Senator is Andy Hill (Kirkland, Woodinville, Sammamish) , Steve Litzow (Bellevue, Mercer Island, Issaquah) or Joe Fain (Covington, Auburn, Kent); ask them to stand strong and oppose legislation containing new taxes on vaping products (reference HB2795 and SB6569); thank them for opposing the tax.
Democrat Senators need to hear from us as well
This amounts to 3 phone calls per person. Please remind/encourage all customers, friends, family members, etc. to make their calls. If the elected officials don't hear from us, they think we don't care. WE DO CARE so the calls have to be made. Putting this Call To Action on social media tools will help this go viral.

We are entering the HOME STRETCH – the session is about to end this Thursday. The consensus is that the officials are not interested in having an extended Special Session so we only have a couple of days this week to make our points. Much like our personal vaporizers, it's in our hands to kill the effort to tax our products out of existence!

WA Vape Association also had a meeting with the Anti-Tobacco Alliance and initial discussions went very well. More on this in coming weeks. For those of you supporting WA Vape, please send your checks of support to:

WA Vape Association
10 SE Everett Mall Way
Suite C
Everett, WA 98208

We appreciate your support.

Regards,

Joe Baba
WA Vape Association
360-348-2029

 

[Bill Godshall]

Alexander wrote

Looks like a win for BT to me.

In fact, it would be a win for BP and for ANTZ.

BT has been opposing the WA tax proposal.

 

[ImperfectFuture]

Here's another one I recieved today.

Dear John,

Thank you for contacting me regarding Senate Bill 6569 which would place electronic cigarettes and vaporizers in the same category as tobacco and other nicotine products. This is a complex issue and one that I am still studying.

As you are aware tobacco products are dangerous and cause many preventable diseases and deaths each year. I am glad that these electronic versions have helped many people combat their dependence on tobacco. However, I do have concerns that these new forms of smoking will encourage young people to take up smoking, something no one wants to see.

Thank you again for writing to me on this important issue. I will certainly keep your comments in mind as I consider this piece of legislation. Please do not hesitate to contact me again if you have any further questions or concerns.

Always,
Keiser2
Senator Karen Keiser
33rd District of Washington
Sen. Karen Keiser – Washington State Senate Democrats

In regards to my earlier rant about how they only help people on Medicaid, since this is the state, whipped out a few choice words (oh, when you're new to quitting, a good rant can make your day). Sorta make us pay, then maybe you should too (hint, hint, we did get a socialist in Seattle, though wasn't part of that). Also, bring up how are they taxing 0mg? I am now vaping 6mg, with mostly 0 for maintenance and chain vaping. Brought up how us fixed income peeps get really po'd about stuff that costs more.

 

[brickfollett]

Everybody keep in mind that Provape, the makers of the beloved Provari is based in Washington State...

 

[ImperfectFuture]

If there is somewhere else I should be posting this please let me know.

Here is a list of the democrat reps that have not said they are opposed. The number is their district #. If they tell you they are now opposed post an update here. If you email them I recommend emailing them individually. I sent a mass email and then once they figured out I wasn't in their district they basically blew me off. If any of their offices tell you they are opposed send me a message or post here and I will update my list. Thanks!

Cool, wrote out letters (may post to this sites and my upcoming, blogs. Shared in twitter and YouTube, the change.org petition.

 

[9ball_AJ]

Everybody keep in mind that Provape, the makers of the beloved Provari is based in Washington State...

And for the first time since this started, they are making their customers aware that they are behind the vapers of WA State...

Dear ProVape Customer and Washington State resident,

We at ProVape need your help. We wouldn't ordinarily ask, but this is a special case.

The Washington State Senate and Legislature are considering new taxes (HB2795 and SB6569) that would heavily tax e-cigarettes.

The result of these new taxes will be the following:
1. Taxes up to 95% on all e-cigarettes, e-juices and e-cigarette related hardware.
2. Massive closures of vapor lounges, e-cigarette retailers, e-cigarette manufacturers and e-juice manufacturers.
3. Limited availability and limited (or no) access to different e-cigarette models and juice flavors.
4. Cause serious harm to thousands of Washington citizens who have quit smoking analog cigarettes by replacing them with electronic cigarettes.
5. Remove a viable option many physicians and dentists are recommending to their patients wishing to replace analog cigarettes.

This legislation will kill vaping in Washington State.

Please help us in our fight against these outrageous taxes:

Step 1:
Use this online tool to locate the contact info for your State Representative and State Senator.
http://app.leg.wa.gov/DistrictFinder/

Step 2:
Once you have located this information, please take the time to call your senator and representatives.
This amounts to just 3 phone calls.

Step 3:
Tell them where you are from and ask them to oppose legislation containing new taxes on vaping products (reference HB2795 and SB6569).

This amounts to 3 phone calls per person.

Please encourage friends, family members, and anyone else to make these calls.

If the elected officials don't hear from us, they will think we don't care. WE DO CARE so the calls have to be made.

We don't have much time - the deadline is this Thursday, March 13 at midnight.

Please make the calls today!

Thank you for your time and your support.

 

[rothenbj]

A tax of $08/mg would be disastrous to the industry. Part of the conversion from smoker to vapor is a massive learning curve. I know I saved absolutely nothing for over six months buying e cigarettes, liquid, trying this trying that. An additional consideration was that I was smoking 2-3 PAD so I broke even at a very large budget.

If a PAD smoker had the same early results and did not have a lot of disposable income, the conversion attempt would probably be abandoned. Adding excessive taxes would further discourage the effort.

 

[brickfollett]

I got the email from provape and made my calls. Gonna send a mass email to every congressional person /senator

 

[ImperfectFuture]

A tax of $08/mg would be disastrous to the industry. Part of the conversion from smoker to vapor is a massive learning curve. I know I saved absolutely nothing for over six months buying e cigarettes, liquid, trying this trying that. An additional consideration was that I was smoking 2-3 PAD so I broke even at a very large budget.

If a PAD smoker had the same early results and did not have a lot of disposable income, the conversion attempt would probably be abandoned. Adding excessive taxes would further discourage the effort.

Yeah, my letters included someone smoking 4 to 5 cigarettes a day, probably break even in 10 months.

There is no other alternative for light smokers. Everything is too strong. And they quit selling individual cigarettes with the tax started in 2005.

 

[rothenbj]

Yeah, my letters included someone smoking 4 to 5 cigarettes a day, probably break even in 10 months.

There is no other alternative for light smokers. Everything is too strong. And they quit selling individual cigarettes with the tax started in 2005.

It's funny how they seem to forget those nearly $200b in "society costs" for medical and productivity when they lose a few million in cigarette taxes.

 

[DrMA]

Everybody keep in mind that Provape, the makers of the beloved Provari is based in Washington State...

I was hoping Provape would've been far more visibly active in the fight against the inane taxes in proposed in WA. IMO, that email is too little too late.

For some reason, the vaping industry as a whole has just kinda sat back through all this legislative storm and let the consumers do all the heavy lifting (not the BT side, or the big cigalike manufacturers).

 

[9ball_AJ]

I was hoping Provape would've been far more visibly active in the fight against the inane taxes in proposed in WA. IMO, that email is too little too late.

For some reason, the vaping industry as a whole has just kinda sat back through all this legislative storm and let the consumers do all the heavy lifting (not the BT side, or the big cigalike manufacturers).

I agree that Provape's effort is disappointing. But what I do see is other WA State companies lobbying for the Vapers. Mt Baker Vapor showed up to testify at the HB275 hearing, as well as several owners and reps from area vape shops. B&M's are trying to get information out there, and if I am not mistaken Joe Baba, who is heading up the WA Vape Association, is also the owner of Tobacco Joe's, a converted tobacco shop with several locations. The small businesses are helping in just about every way that they can, it's the larger companies like Provape that are late to the game.