What is an e-cigarette?

[JoeMcPlumber]

Forgive me, i do not mean to be flippant but i've been out of the loop for a long time
and just recently got the hint that FDA regulations might actually be a thing, or,
a thing that will shortly become a thing.

The forum has grown since i last visited, it's too big for me
and i just want to cut to the chase...

What are they proposing to regulate? And on what bases?

What i mean is, i have a bunch of battery holders with regulating circuitry.
I have a collection of tanks with rebuildable coils,
and a couple hundred feet of resistance wire of various sorts.
In my fridge i've got several bottles of 100mg/ml nicotine,
(i stopped buying it because two years later i haven't finished the first one),
and i've got a couple gallons of pharmaceutical grade PG.
Only thing i'm low on is flavoring, i've only got about a year's worth of that.
But i didn't come to brag about how OK i am,
i'm genuinely concerned for my fellow vapers.

So, as i ponder my supplies here, i honestly wonder
where is the e-cigarette?

It almost seems like an absurd question, to which the answer
is entirely semantic and subjective.

What will they regulate, and how is it determined to fall
under FDA jurisdiction?
Again please excuse my ignorance but it seems to me
that the only possible way to exercise control over this industry
is to exercise control over intended purpose,
as expressed in product presentation.
To that point, (and i hope i'm vague enough to avoid breaking any rules),
there is an entire parallel industry devoted to vaporizing substances other than nicotine.
Those devices are functionally identical, often just rebranded e-cigs,
but they can't possibly come under the heading of "tobacco products"
if nothing even tobacco derivative is intended to be used in them.

So will they regulate tanks and mods intended for nicotine consumption
and force us to switch to (those other sort)?
Will they regulate nicotine and force us to purchase "food grade insecticide"?
Will they regulate flavorings and force us back to confectionary products?
To my mind they have a righteous mandate to regulate the things
you buy in a wrapper in convenience stores,
which are unambiguously labeled
"e-cigarettes".
To stretch it further than that is to enter the realm of intent and thought control.
Very Orwellian.
It's deja vu all over again, only different.

It's difficult, at this point, to sort fact from hysteria.
However, i confirmed several smaller outfits losing their businesses already
because their payment processors refuse to be involved in "tobacco" sales
and i thought, hey that's pretty serious.
So i thought i'd better come see what's up.

Can someone summarize what this regulation means to us
as a practical matter?
Thanks.

 

[K_Tech]

Can someone summarize what this regulation means to us
as a practical matter?
Thanks.

IANAL, but quoting from The Motley Fool:

The FDA itself admits it could take as many as 5,000 hours to complete the necessary paperwork and cost "only" several hundred thousand dollars per product. Industry estimates, however, run orders of magnitude higher, between $3 million and $20 million per product. Plus applications have to be submitted for everything a manufacturer wants to do. New product design? Submit an application. Make a health claim? Submit an application. Register with the agency? Application. Introduce ingredients? Application.

This is for ANY "nicotine delivery" product manufactured after 2007.
It's an attempt by the FDA to shut down anything on the market that (basically) ISN'T a cigalike manufactured by BT.
For me, it won't have THAT much of an impact. I DIY and rebuild, and have enough gear to last decades. I'm upset about the new and potentially new vapers that will have their once easy access to good gear eliminated.

 

[Bunnykiller]

they are trying to stop the usage of devices that are used to vape...
for example, tanks, drippers, regulated devices (VV/VW), nic juice...
wire, batteries,wicking materials, VG/PG and most of the flavors that have uses in other industries wont be controlled...
as long as nic is processed from tobacco, it will be considered a tobacco product, until someone can process nic from any other nightshade plant or even make it synthetically ( cheaply), it will become difficult to obtain once this goes full effect.
There will be work arounds... nic is used for many different items and it will be just a matter of time before someone will obtain a way to clean up food grade insecticide...

 

[tj99959]

Most everything we use comes under the heading of an "accessory", which they spell out in the regulation. So it would cost someone a bazillion bucks to introduce a new drip tip. (or get one already on the market approved)

Most seem to not understand the intent of the (2007) tobacco control act.
It's intent is to END the use of tobacco products.
The e-cig deeming regulations are no different.

 

[Bad Ninja]

The FDA wants to control the flow of profit.


If the FDA wanted to ban vaping the would have just banned sales of liquid nicotine.
Checkmate.

They didnt, because there is too much money at stake.


Btw,
Much of the gear falls outside the FDAs authority.
Its not specific to vaping nicotine liquid.

 

[JoeMcPlumber]

Much of the gear falls outside the FDAs authority.
Its not specific to vaping nicotine liquid.

See but that's what i mean.

I'm sorry i don't know where the boundaries are about discussing such things,
(........, e.g., is entirely legal in my state now),
but then apart from nicotine and mixed juices
that makes the law entirely subjective.
So like if MadVapes, for instance, simply stopped selling juice
and never mentioned anything about nicotine on its pages,
there'd be no justification for regulating any of their products.
If they can only regulate stuff that is to a specific purpose,
then they are effectively regulating thought and speech.
Then, when we start purchasing food grade insecticide
and come here to discuss our suppliers and
an FDA lackey sees our discussions,
the suppliers will be in the tobacco business?

This is just so stupid and quintessentially un-American
i can't believe it's actually happening.

But yeah i see regardless of how we get on from here,
given extra expenses, scarcity, barriers to entry, etc.,
this is tragic for business, newbies and the less sophisticated,
and for public health.

We were doing really well there for a while, all on our own.

EDIT: Hah, i found a ........ boundary.

 

[Tempesta]

Problem is, it's the FDA, not any sensible person, who decides whether a device is "intended" for use in vaping. They also want to drastically regulate what a manufacturer can SAY about its products. I predict a lot of newfangled flashlights coming out in the next few years...

 

[JoeMcPlumber]

as long as nic is processed from tobacco, it will be considered a tobacco product, until someone can process nic from any other nightshade plant or even make it synthetically ( cheaply), it will become difficult to obtain once this goes full effect.

I found this series of videos almost immediately after posting here.
These folks are in actual contact and conversations with FDA reps,
trying to unpack the meaning and ramifications of the regulations,
so as to know how to comply.



Bottom line seems to be,
the regulations will mean what FDA flunkies decide they mean, on the fly.
They don't address it directly but from the sum total of what i heard here,
doesn't seem to matter in the least if you extract nicotine from a tomato,
it is a tobacco product.

Because reasons.

As i said. Orwellian.

 

[Vaslovik]

I've never cared for the tem "e-cigarette" because it's NOT a cigarette. There's electricity involved, but not burning tobacco that would make it a cigarette. Moreover the term "e-cigarette" equates it with tobacco products and plays into the hands of ANTZ trying crush the industry so they can own it and have a monopoly on nicotine from any source or delivery device. I smoked for many years, and trust me, my vape is no cigarette.

 

[crxess]

It's intent is to END Expansion of tobacco products.

Corrected for truth - they See the Profit in BT

 

[JoeMcPlumber]

I've never cared for the tem "e-cigarette" because it's NOT a cigarette.

I totally get what you're saying but on the other hand
i cringe every time i have to say "vape", "vaping", or "vapers".
My spellcheck doesn't even approve of the latter.

This was a recurring topic back in the day, because
a lot of people wanted to distance from anything smoking related
but felt "vaping" was a lame term.
Only we couldn't collectively think of a better one.

Now it seems common enough nobody thinks twice.

I blame it on the inventor. He coulda called them something cool.
Like i dunno... "dragons"?
(I am dragging, on my dragon; i am a dragger... oh nm.)

We did call our devices "pv's" for a while, do we still do that?

 

[mcclintock]

Do yoi

Most everything we use comes under the heading of an "accessory", which they spell out in the regulation. So it would cost someone a bazillion bucks to introduce a new drip tip. (or get one already on the market approved)

Most seem to not understand the intent of the (2007) tobacco control act.
It's intent is to END the use of tobacco products.
The e-cig deeming regulations are no different.

Not really that I can see, beyond limiting further expansion of tobacco and requiring payments from BT. Also, an accessory is defined as something that does not affect what goes into your body (e.g. ash tray) and is not what we vape with but will not be restricted.

The TCA does not anticipate less harmful new products, or at least that requires as much paperwork as more harmful new products. It seems to me that BT was probably more aware of e-cigs than the government and "compromised" by limiting the market to what they were already in control of. It doesn't allow much movement on their part to continue popularity but it kills competition.

They are correct that vaping may increase the popularity of smoking-like recreational activities. It should, it's a better product. It's also less addictive than whole tobacco use, so nicotine cannot be blamed for that.

People in Tobacco Control look forward to tobacco use ending soon, but they are delusional.

 

[tidegirl]

I too have been away for a while and just wandered back after finding this news today.

So am I reading this correctly that none of the changes go into effect until 2018?

I am nic free now and I have been DIYing my juice since a few weeks after I joined here, so the tank parts are about the only thing that will be affected for me. (I expect my Provari to outlast the apocalypse) Still, this news hurts my heart for all of the future vapers that will never convert due to these ridiculous regulations.

 

[JoeMcPlumber]

So am I reading this correctly that none of the changes go into effect until 2018?

I encourage anyone attracted to this thread to watch the series of videos i posted up ^there.
Notso much for to gain understanding, as that remains elusive,
but to get a feel for the utter absurdity of the situation.

I'm not even sure of the context but it appears to be
a gathering of wholesalers, manufacturers, and retailers,
being addressed by people who have as good a grasp on things as can be had.
Which is to say, not very good.

Amongst the more salient points i took away...

- The effects are going into effect, they are affecting, now.
They will get progressively worse as time goes on
and more rules go into effect.
- Consumers will begin to see these effects later this year, as e.g.,
geriatric customers are assaulted at the door of the vapor cafe, for their IDs.
- It doesn't really matter when this or that rule goes into effect except inasmuch
as it will be progressively difficult for nearly all small businesses
to comply anyway.
The strategy, at this point, is to comply with the the initial filing requirements
as compliantly as possible, so as to delay the death of their businesses
while other legal and legislative remedies are pursued. Because,
- Nobody really knows what it all means.
The FDA inserted itself into a massive market it does not understand,
found itself drowning in minutiae,
and decided the best strategy was to pull the market in with it.
The agency noticed my point about the ambiguous nature of the product,
and responded with hundreds of open-ended rules which
will mean whatever it is convenient to mean.

All of which means to me, (and i hope to others like me
who got their personal systems down to a routine, got complacent,
and went away),
it's time to come back,
attach ourselves to advocacy groups, and get politically active again.
Because ultimately it isn't about us.

 

[Lessifer]

I encourage anyone attracted to this thread to watch the series of videos i posted up ^there.
Notso much for to gain understanding, as that remains elusive,
but to get a feel for the utter absurdity of the situation.

I'm not even sure of the context but it appears to be
a gathering of wholesalers, manufacturers, and retailers,
being addressed by people who have as good a grasp on things as can be had.
Which is to say, not very good.

Amongst the more salient points i took away...

- The effects are going into effect, they are affecting, now.
They will get progressively worse as time goes on
and more rules go into effect.
- Consumers will begin to see these effects later this year, as e.g.,
geriatric customers are assaulted at the door of the vapor cafe, for their IDs.
- It doesn't really matter when this or that rule goes into effect except inasmuch
as it will be progressively difficult for nearly all small businesses
to comply anyway.
The strategy, at this point, is to comply with the the initial filing requirements
as compliantly as possible, so as to delay the death of their businesses
while other legal and legislative remedies are pursued. Because,
- Nobody really knows what it all means.
The FDA inserted itself into a massive market it does not understand,
found itself drowning in minutiae,
and decided the best strategy was to pull the market in with it.
The agency noticed my point about the ambiguous nature of the product,
and responded with hundreds of open-ended rules which
will mean whatever it is convenient to mean.

All of which means to me, (and i hope to others like me
who got their personal systems down to a routine, got complacent,
and went away),
it's time to come back,
attach ourselves to advocacy groups, and get politically active again.
Because ultimately it isn't about us.

It seems like you've gotten your answers. They're coming down hard, and going after everything that they think they can. There will be challenges but there are no guarantees. So, yes, get active. Join and follow the advocacy groups. Support businesses that are active in advocacy and/or litigation. Call/write your reps. Talk to your friends and family and help them understand what vaping means to you, and what this all means for vapers/smokers.

 

[Susan~S]

I expect my Provari to outlast the apocalypse

Yea, but at $29 for a blem, why not get a few more? Keep checking back for their weekly specials.

 

[tidegirl]

Yea, but at $29 for a blem, why not get a few more? Keep checking back for their weekly specials.

Believe me, when I saw the current prices that thought started flitting around in my head.

 

[JoeMcPlumber]

Yea, but at $29 for a blem, why not get a few more? Keep checking back for their weekly specials.

Do those have spring loaded firing pins? Or at least sturdy ones, that'll hold a kayfun rebuildable? The death of almost every mod i've had die on me, was the insulator mooshing down so either the tank won't make contact or it shorts out.