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What is the law as far as selling nicotine?

Discussion in 'Law and the E-Cigarette' started by Zben504, Jul 14, 2009.

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  1. Zben504

    Zben504 Registered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2009
    Location:
    Tulsa, OK
    I talked with a compunding pharmacist today whom I was buying dropper bottles from. I told her what they were for and she voiced her opinion about how it was just prolonging an addiction and blah, blah, etc. She said that if I'm "dealing drugs" without proper licensing that I could be in big trouble.
    So my question is this: if I am selling liquid nicotine, is it illegal? Nevermind what it's intended use is. Is it illegal to sell nicotine without some sort of license? You don't need a license to sell cigarettes, just a tabacco tax stamp. Can I be arrested for selling "controlled drugs" at my kiosk? This pharmacist has me a bit worried.
     
  2. dedmonwakin

    dedmonwakin Super Member ECF Veteran

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Destin,FL.
    I think this depends from state to state, but selling tabacco products are not illegal, but illegal to minors. Under federal law, this doesn't fall under burning tabacco restrictions....but it is still a product of tabacco. Most retailers have to acquire a license to sell tabacco or products of and for tabacco(like rolling papers) which could be as simple as signing a document stating that you will not sell to minors. But again, this is a product of tabacco and not for tabacco.

    You should really talk to a lawyer. Get a free consultation or pay for it so you can get correct legal advise. It's worth it, to avoid the headache in the long run.

    Your a seller of this product with in the US, so laws of transportation and shipping may apply differently to you than it would be to a buyer or the discreet shipment from China. Especially if you have large amounts....since nicotine is not only a drug, but a poison, you could be in a world of hurt if your pulled over....this is just speculation though. But based on Hazmat transportation of nicotine liquid. Hazardous Materials Although your not carrying pure nic, an officer would want to see proof that it isn't (that is, if he's a complete A hole!). Plus your in Oklahoma....doesn't this state have strict laws?:confused:....atleast they finally lifted the skin ink ban!lol

    Here is some helpful info that revolves around your state. This could/may be useful for you to use as a guideline, but not necessarily follow.
    OSCN Found Document:Unlawful to Sell or Furnish Tobacco Products to Persons Under Eighteen (18) Years of Age

    I'm just stating the possible, not certainty.


    Again, I would talk to a lawyer.
     
  3. chad

    chad Re-member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    NY, USA
    I'm sorry - I know I'm about to sound like an a**hole and I don't mean to, but I have to ask...

    Isn't this something you should have figured out before you started your business?

    Anyway - I'd like to know myself out of curiosity but I think dedmonwakin is absolutely right. You should be consulting with a lawyer.
     
  4. OutWest

    OutWest Forum Supplier ECF Veteran

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    Oklahoma USA
    consulting with a lawyer is the best. The only thing i've been able to find in oklahoma is a bill defining tobacco as including any tobacco substitute. I think that was in the bill on tobacco tax, but i'm not sure offhand.

    edit - it was in tobacco tax legislation. Not sure what current legislation says, but Oklahoma SB543 (and I havent found if it passed or not) says
     
  5. Kate51

    Kate51 Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Argyle Wi USA
    I don't know about nicotine, but a general rule of thought is that I can't bake cookies in my kitchen and take them to a kiosk to sell them. (Most "bake sales" are illegal, did you know that?) You have some legal responsiblities for the people buying your goods, i.e., that they meet standards for cleanliness, wholesomeness, purity, in the mixing, filling containers, and selling your juices, and FDA inspections or State inspections of your "facility", even if it's your kitchen table. If you're baking cookies, that's one thing, but if you're putting nicotine in them it would be something entirely different. (Nicotine is a toxic, addictive substance.)
    If someone was to get sick from using your products you could be in a legal jeopardy. Could be huge. I would stop selling them right away and seek some legal advice. I think you could also be wrong about selling cigarettes. You definitely would be in Wisconsin. You would need at least a seller's permit, and to have a tax number you need a seller's permit first. I have to have one for my Upholstery business. There are a lot of people who for instance bake and decorate cakes, which calls for a separate kitchen and work area from you home one, state inspected and licensed.
    If you're making your own juice, you would need a permit. If you are buying it wholesale and re-bottling it for sale you still should get some legal advice about that, as well.
     
  6. OutWest

    OutWest Forum Supplier ECF Veteran

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    the FDA is saying that the eliquid is an unapproved drug, and thus there could be legal issues arise, including seizure of goods, fines, etc. Nicotine isnt a scheduled substance (like codeine, *********, *******, etc), though, if that's what youre asking.

    Kate does bring up some good points regarding manufacturing and rebottling, and product liability.

    again, I'd ask a lawyer
     
  7. Zben504

    Zben504 Registered Supplier ECF Veteran

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    Tulsa, OK
    To be honest It was kind of a whirlwind situation with the lease, getting product on time and getting signage for the kiosk. So we really didn't even think about the legalities of nicotine, just the legalities of everything else. I know the FDA wants to come down hard but wasn't really worried. I don't think your an a**hole it's a valid question that I don't have a decent answer to.
    I have a good friend who's an excellent attorney (he vapes) and he told me not to worry too much and that he would look into it. He said since I'm incorporated I don't have to worry about personal liability. I still would hate for something to happen.
     
  8. markarich159

    markarich159 Ultra Member ECF Veteran

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    PA, USA
    As a pharmacist myself, yes she was correct. Eventually, you or your supplier will have to register with the FDA since you are selling a recognized "drug" under FDA law. You won't however be arrested for "controlled substance violations" as Nicotine is not a contolled substance, like Morphine, *******, or oxycontin.
     
  9. Zben504

    Zben504 Registered Supplier ECF Veteran

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    Tulsa, OK

    Isn't caffiene a drug? Did the pepsi company have to register with the FDA to sell their products? Maybe they did I really don't know. U can buy energy "chews" with caffiene in them. If that company extracted caffiene from a source like coffee then added it to a candy how is that any different than extracting it from tabacco and adding it to propelyne glycol? Both in their pure form are deadly right? I just don't see the difference.
     
  10. markarich159

    markarich159 Ultra Member ECF Veteran

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    Yes pepsi did, but as a food manufacturer. The company that sold them the caffeine to put in the pepsi(as well as the caffeine chew company) would have had to register as a "drug" Producer. Pepsi and caffeine chews are defined as "food products" whereas caffeine is a "drug". In the case of Nicotine eliquid, most likely the FDA stance is that it's not a food use intent, it is a drug use intent, therefore nicotine liquid is a "drug" by their definition. You would have to look at the USP, anything listed in there in it's pure form(or in it's USP/NF definition) is a drug. For general purposes, anything "extracted" from it's plant source no longer qualifies as a Food, but a drug, UNLESS it is then mixed into a product that has already been previously classified as a "food" such as Pepsi.
     
  11. Zben504

    Zben504 Registered Supplier ECF Veteran

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    Ok thanks for clearing that up for me.
     
  12. markarich159

    markarich159 Ultra Member ECF Veteran

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    As a pharmacist, again, the lawyer is wrong, corporate legality isn't going to help you if th FDA busts your kiosk. You would be the one with the vaporizers and liquid in your possesion. I'm assuming your not a publicly traded corporation on a stock exchange. Your a private company and your the owner. Your responsible for any Criminal charges levied by the FDA. I'm not trying to scare you or anything, the FDA is most likely not going to come bust you. But at some point, either you or your supplier is going to have to be licensed or registered with the FDA. This will probably not happen for some time, but when it does the company selling the vapes and liquid will have to register as a drug/device manufacturers and you will have to register either federally or thru the state as a licensed distributor of these products.
     
  13. Zben504

    Zben504 Registered Supplier ECF Veteran

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    But wait isn't there a company U.S. Based that sells pure nicotine? They would be approved to manufacture it, therefore making it legal right? I don't know, I'm looking for loopholes for when the whole USA e-cig industry comes crashing down.
     
  14. Kate51

    Kate51 Vaping Master ECF Veteran

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    Argyle Wi USA
    The ONLY US company selling Juices is Johnson Creek, they have just done a re-vamp on the formulas, in anticipation of FDS regs, I suspect, but they do have FDA Approval. The only one I know of at this time. They also have "partners" who sell their product on e-cig websites. I do not know if they could sell bulk pure nicotine, I seriously doubt that they would. Am sure you would need clearance to buy it.
     
  15. Sun Vaporer

    Sun Vaporer Moved On ECF Veteran

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    You need competent Counsel as what you are doing has been documented as a violation of more then just one Federal law.


    Sun
     
  16. Sun Vaporer

    Sun Vaporer Moved On ECF Veteran

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    Kate--Johnson Creek only has registared with the FDA, they have no approval with the FDA whatsoever. Registration can be obtained by anyone, but what they sell is quite a different matter.

    Sun
     
  17. Zben504

    Zben504 Registered Supplier ECF Veteran

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    you do realize that I am a mere small fish in a huge pond of e-cig sellers. When the hammer comes down on a few big guys it's time to rethink how we do business. If it's a violation of federal laws why has noone been repremanded?
     
  18. markarich159

    markarich159 Ultra Member ECF Veteran

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    I agree, but at least they are ahead of the curve. Registering means they at least MUST follow FDA current good manufacturing procedures. When the final regs come down from on high, JC may have some additional licensing issues/requirements they will have to append/ammend. But they have at least taken the 1st step toward compliance and it shows they are willing to take the next steps. As I wrote in a separate thread, what I believe will happen is regulation and, of course, taxation. But that happens in every industry where food and drugs(FDA) are involved. E-cigs and eliquid will remain, just priced higher due to additional industry regs and again taxation.
     
  19. beckah54

    beckah54 Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

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    Ohio
    Since you are a pharmacist with many years of schooling, what are your thoughts regarding the use of nicotine liquid? I'm assuming that you purchase your eliquid and that you vape. Please correct me if I am wrong.
    Do you see eliquid becoming a prescription or just being monitored as tobacco is?
     
  20. markarich159

    markarich159 Ultra Member ECF Veteran

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    Jun 30, 2009
    Location:
    PA, USA
    I do use and love Vaping and think it is SO very much healthier then smoking analogs. I have started a thread called "A pharmacists point of view" in this subforum. Rather then having to retype everything I'll try to link you to it. But bear with me, it's the 1st time I've tried this.

    http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/law-e-cigarette/26895-pharmacists-point-view.html
     
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