What is the truth about 18650 batteries?

[mcclintock]

It's called CYA. The batteries we use in our devices were not specifically developed for that purpose. Even Sony has sent out letters in the past stating that their batteries are not to be used for vaping.

You'll most likely find that it's the legal departments behind the "not for vaping use" statements.

Yeah apparently! I mean, they're the ones making 25A batteries, are they really safer when you pile up 100 of them and stick them in a car? Actually, are they even used there, what else are 25A 18650s for?

They're right though with mechs, mostly. Low power protected batteries are intended for unprotected applications such as flashlights. High power needs a limit circuit, as reg mods do.

 

[Baditude]

Yeah apparently! I mean, they're the ones making 25A batteries, are they really safer when you pile up 100 of them and stick them in a car? Actually, are they even used there, what else are 25A 18650s for?

Most 18650 IMR batteries are designed for use in the auto industry. Others are designed for OEM power tools that use rechargable batteries, such as cordless vacuum cleaners, cordless power drills, cordless leaf blowers, etc. All of these battery devices have BMS (battery management systems) of some sort which manage multiple batteries within a battery pack. These BMS have built-in protection circuitry, and sometimes include battery cooling mechanisms to keep batteries from overheating. That's why battery manufacturers like Sony doesn't want the vaping industry to use their batteries, because most of us use these batteries stand alone without the sophisticated BMS they were designed to be used with.

battery pack with BMS

 

[aliceisinwonderland]

The reason that the ICR protected batteries aren't recommended is that the chemistry is different. The batteries that are recommended for vaping are what is known as safe-chemistry IMR batteries and while they aren't protected, are safer if something bad were to happen, compared to the protected ICR batteries.

(9) Battery Basics for Mods; the Ultimate Battery Guide | E-Cigarette Forum

Thank you Ed_C !

I'm sorry, wires must have gotten crossed there. I didn't mean to imply you had ill intentions at all, just you've read too much and your head is spinning trying to make sense of it. I get it, been there!
You're fine, you're asking smart questions and I didn't mean my reply to be snarky towards you!
Back when "mods" first came out, they were modified flashlights, "pipe bombs", screwdrivers, whatever was easily adapted to hold a battery and screw on an atomizer. NO, 18650's, were NOT developed for this, nor do manufactures really like us using them for this. But they are as safe as you make them! Use a 10a battery in something that needs 20a, you will have a problem! Same as tears in the wrap, hard shorts, I can go on. Buy good batteries, from a trusted vendor, listen to the most valuable information @Mooch has graciously provided us with, and I doubt you'll ever have a problem.
I've been around since 2010, never had a battery so much as vent on me, and I'm by no means the most careful person you'll ever meet!
Again, sorry you took my post wrong, but does that make you feel a little better?

Thanks for that sawlight! You're cool. Really appreciate it!

 

[aliceisinwonderland]

Protected batteries are low discharge and unsafe chemistry. Do not use them in mods.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

Got it! Thank you KenD!

 

[aliceisinwonderland]

Yeah apparently! I mean, they're the ones making 25A batteries, are they really safer when you pile up 100 of them and stick them in a car? Actually, are they even used there, what else are 25A 18650s for?

They're right though with mechs, mostly. Low power protected batteries are intended for unprotected applications such as flashlights. High power needs a limit circuit, as reg mods do.

Good point mcclintock , good to know!

 

[aliceisinwonderland]

Most 18650 IMR batteries are designed for use in the auto industry. Others are designed for OEM power tools that use rechargable batteries, such as cordless vacuum cleaners, cordless power drills, cordless leaf blowers, etc. All of these battery devices have BMS (battery management systems) of some sort which manage multiple batteries within a battery pack. These BMS have built-in protection circuitry, and sometimes include battery cooling mechanisms to keep batteries from overheating. That's why battery manufacturers like Sony doesn't want the vaping industry to use their batteries, because most of us use these batteries stand alone without the sophisticated BMS they were designed to be used with.

battery pack with BMS

Great content and photo Baditude, Thanks!

 

[aliceisinwonderland]

I like you too Eskie

 

[mcclintock]

Most 18650 IMR batteries are designed for use in the auto industry. Others are designed for OEM power tools that use rechargable batteries, such as cordless vacuum cleaners, cordless power drills, cordless leaf blowers, etc. All of these battery devices have BMS (battery management systems) of some sort which manage multiple batteries within a battery pack. These BMS have built-in protection circuitry, and sometimes include battery cooling mechanisms to keep batteries from overheating. That's why battery manufacturers like Sony doesn't want the vaping industry to use their batteries, because most of us use these batteries stand alone without the sophisticated BMS they were designed to be used with.

battery pack with BMS

Appreciate you posting this information, but only because it's real.

The irony of the situation is that Sony batteries are preferred by many in vaping devices for the same reason they're preferred in other applications: the highest level of safety and performance. They would be placed in proprietary battery packs in order to keep users from using anything else in devices using that pack. The biggest danger of a loose 18650 cell device using a Sony is that the Sony can be taken out and replaced with another brand.

Clearly, they are saying vape devices is an unapproved use of their cells and that is their right. However, they are also making statements of technical fact that their products are inadequate, while in fact they are perhaps the best available. Basically, they are saying ALL vape devices using replaceable 18650 cells are dangerous.

They are correct in that 18650s aren't really intended for direct use by consumers because they aren't labelled or identified suitably. But again, this is an area where Sonys are better than most....

 

[aliceisinwonderland]

Appreciate you posting this information, but only because it's real.

The irony of the situation is that Sony batteries are preferred by many in vaping devices for the same reason they're preferred in other applications: the highest level of safety and performance. They would be placed in proprietary battery packs in order to keep users from using anything else in devices using that pack. The biggest danger of a loose 18650 cell device using a Sony is that the Sony can be taken out and replaced with another brand.

Clearly, they are saying vape devices is an unapproved use of their cells and that is their right. However, they are also making statements of technical fact that their products are inadequate, while in fact they are perhaps the best available. Basically, they are saying ALL vape devices using replaceable 18650 cells are dangerous.

They are correct in that 18650s aren't really intended for direct use by consumers because they aren't labelled or identified suitably. But again, this is an area where Sonys are better than most....

Thanks for this thoughtful post mcclintock ! Sorry didnt see it sooner but have been fighting long term ilness. Happy New Year!

 

[DaveP]

Commercial applications for lithium batteries are designed and sold for a particular purpose. Airplane backup power supplies are one. Electric automobiles are another. Those packs are built and sealed under an engineering spec and controlled by the designer and the manufacturer and the service end of the airline industry and automobile industry are trained to handle and install the packs properly. Still, mishaps occur.

High end flashlights (CandlePowerForums) also have their issues with venting because flashlight enthusiasts compete for brightness and battery life, so there's been venting issues with people who have to have the brightest flashlight in the group.

In ecig mods the batteries are user replaceable, so there's no control by the manufacturer over which batteries get used at 200 watts. That's where ECF and other forums are valuable in educating users about which cells to use for which application. It's also why battery manufacturers are concerned about their reputation in applications that aren't controllable by the manufacturer.

 

[aliceisinwonderland]

Commercial applications for lithium batteries are designed and sold for a particular purpose. Airplane backup power supplies are one. Electric automobiles are another. Those packs are built and sealed under an engineering spec and controlled by the designer and the manufacturer and the service end of the airline industry and automobile industry are trained to handle and install the packs properly. Still, mishaps occur.
Thanks DaveP! We learn so much here at ECF and your contribution is appreciated!
High end flashlights (CandlePowerForums) also have their issues with venting because flashlight enthusiasts compete for brightness and battery life, so there's been venting issues with people who have to have the brightest flashlight in the group.

In ecig mods the batteries are use replaceable, so there's no control by the manufacturer over which batteries get used at 200 watts. That's where ECF and other forums are valuable in educating users about which cells to use for which application. It's also why battery manufacturers are concerned about their reputation in applications that aren't controllable by the manufacturer.

 

[CaponeGiaccone]

I'm confused as to why the LG HB2 HB4 and HB6 all have the same 25A and 1500mAh rating, what is the purpose then of 3 different batteries?

The HB2 has the lowest potential amperage in benchmarks. I can tell,the difference between HB4s and HB6s on a regulated box mod at higher wattages.

 

[aliceisinwonderland]

The HB2 has the lowest potential amperage in benchmarks. I can tell,the difference between HB4s and HB6s on a regulated box mod at higher wattages.

Thanks for that post CaponeGiaccone! Awesome name!