How could you be aware of a malfunction before the malfunction happens?
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Whats is the 'Maximum Vaping Amps' in Mooch's safety rating tables?
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CDR is not a safety or performance limit. It is a statement about how hard you can discharge the battery every single cycle, from 4.2V down to 2.5V, without losing more than a certain amount of capacity, or gaining a certain amount of internal resistance, after a certain number of cycles. It is the "every day" level you can operate at and still get good performance and good overall battery life. The CDR has almost nothing to do with safety except that because it is chosen to ensure decent cycle life it ends up setting a discharge current level that results in a huge safety margin.
My MVA rating has nothing to do with being a pulse rating. I don't set pulse ratings.
My MVA rating is how hard you can use a battery when vaping while still giving you a good safety margin in case the mod breaks and discharges the battery continuously. Essentially, it is the highest continuous current level I recommend operating the battery at.
Since we should assume there could be an autofire situation, or that the mod might somehow break and continuously discharge the battery, we shouldn't vape at a battery discharge current level that could cause problems if the mod malfunctions, even if it is pulsed current. The MVA rating is a recommendated vaping, i.e., pulsed, current limit only because it is the continuous current limit I recommend.
You can vape at levels much higher than the MVA rating, of course, since the current is pulsed and the battery can cool between pulls. But the risk of venting goes up in case of an autofire situation or mod malfunction. Thermal runaway is essentially impossible without short-circuiting the battery though.
Well, that was clear.. Thanks
Actually, we have stories of people that had a defective mod that had an autofire problem and the battery vented fairly quickly or other bad situations, a few were lucky and the battery only drained as they were low wattage users. (but the mod did end up very hot, possibly damaged from the heat, and the battery while not vented, was no longer reliable)
The worst enemy of any battery is heat... basically the way Mooch explains (as I understand it) is that while a battery is rated to output a certain Amp level, but as long as it doesn't overheat, that battery might be fine/safe at a higher Amp level. (for a limited amount of time, of course)
But, as safety is a lot more important than trying to push a battery beyond it's safety margins, I know that I wouldn't even touch the possibility to go over the rating of a battery. But then, I don't vape at the crazy wattage, only use decent batteries, nor ever really go under 0.2 ohm for resistance, so that keeps me within safety levels in every way.
But you also have to consider that 18650 are a split thing, low and high drain types (low for flashlights that require very little wattage, and the high drain for devices that need a punch of high power fast such as for vaping)... so it depends on usage in regards to a battery becoming a danger.
So, just to make sure I understand, you're saying it's safe for the user, if not so good for the battery's lifespan, to run it continuously up to MVA? I can set my mod/build to draw MVA and just, hold the button down until the battery is dead? And the worst thing that will happen (you know, probably, knock on wood, YMMV, etc.) besides burned-up cotton, is I'd burn my hand if I touch the hot battery, and it won't last as many cycles? I too, thought that's what the CDR was for and was therefore confused when I saw the MVA as recommending higher usage than that.CDR is not a safety or performance limit. It is a statement about how hard you can discharge the battery every single cycle, from 4.2V down to 2.5V, without losing more than a certain amount of capacity, or gaining a certain amount of internal resistance, after a certain number of cycles. It is the "every day" level you can operate at and still get good performance and good overall battery life. The CDR has almost nothing to do with safety except that because it is chosen to ensure decent cycle life it ends up setting a discharge current level that results in a huge safety margin.
My MVA rating has nothing to do with being a pulse rating. I don't set pulse ratings.
My MVA rating is how hard you can use a battery when vaping while still giving you a good safety margin in case the mod breaks and discharges the battery continuously. Essentially, it is the highest continuous current level I recommend operating the battery at.
Since we should assume there could be an autofire situation, or that the mod might somehow break and continuously discharge the battery, we shouldn't vape at a battery discharge current level that could cause problems if the mod malfunctions, even if it is pulsed current. The MVA rating is a recommendated vaping, i.e., pulsed, current limit only because it is the continuous current limit I recommend.
You can vape at levels much higher than the MVA rating, of course, since the current is pulsed and the battery can cool between pulls. But the risk of venting goes up in case of an autofire situation or mod malfunction. Thermal runaway is essentially impossible without short-circuiting the battery though.
Your statement about the MVA rating is correct. You might get 50 cycles, you might get 2 cycles. It depends on the battery.
The CDR is the current level that allows you to do that and still get good cycle life, i.e., the rated number of cycles. Typically it's around 250 cycles.
Good to know, thanks. Until now I've been advising people that it isn't safe to exceed CDR. I suppose now I'll modify that to say it isn't good for the battery, but it "probably" won't end in catastrophic failure below MVA.
We've always known that it was possible to push batteries past their CDR rating. But, that has never been the real question! The real question has always been WHY would you want to?
Personally, I'd really like to hear from the folks that have figured out how to vape all day on a single 14500 battery!
I have no interest in learning how to drain a 18650 in one hour!
Personally, I'd really like to hear from the folks that have figured out how to vape all day on a single 14500 battery!
I have no interest in learning how to drain a 18650 in one hour!
All things can and will fail at some point. I would rather be aware that they might, will, or can than expect it not to.
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Ok, so if I'm understanding you correctly your point was to use batteries within their specification, not to exceed their rating?
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Again, WHY would you want to. What is gained & what is lost by exceeding their rating?
Always consider the consequences as part of the equation.
Cloudz (like Eskie said) is the number one reason that some uneducated people just have to "push" between the batteries, badly built mods, and way too low ohm coils... to show their mad skillzzzzz
Then you hear about them on the news....
Wait, wait....I thought those are the guys who "know what they´re doing". Now you say it aint so. What are your credentials to say something like that? Do you sport all black clothing? A baseball cap? A hula-hoop ring + cockatoo in your earlobes?
I am so confused...
Trouble is, some might take that as permission to be stupid and end up with a bad situation..
If I was you, I'd continue telling them that it's not safe, as technically, it still isn't safe to push a battery regardless.. if it's bad for the battery, it's plain and simply "bad".
It makes me think of someone telling them that their car CAN go over the speed limit and their engine won't blow up, BUT it's still a bad thing to do as they could get a ticket or crash, hence, it's "bad" and technically not safe to do it (and at your own risk).
Wait, wait....I thought those are the guys who "know what they´re doing". Now you say it aint so. What are your credentials to say something like that? Do you sport all black clothing? A baseball cap? A hula-hoop ring + cockatoo in your earlobes?
I am so confused...
It's simple.. I've seen guys that claimed "I know what I'm doing" debate about battery safety, and eventually they admit by accident that they've vented a few batteries... some even came close to a run-away.
Sorry but that's not what I'd can "knowing what I'm doing".
Almost every mech mod explosion on the news was "someone that knew what they were doing" (some claiming to have been vaping with mechs for years without incidents) and it's someone else's fault and it's blamed on "vaping is dangerous"...
Truth it, it is if you're one of those that believe that you know everything, have bad info, don't do your homework, and doesn't do it step by step to practice, learn, etc.
If you think you're confused... I'm completely at a lost when it comes to some people I see post on here providing crap information that is not just wrong but could be dangerous and yet, even after being kicked out for a while, they return and still don't get it. (and earn a spot on my ignore list)
I thought it was obvious that I was just joking around.
I know exactly what type of dullards you're refering to. Stupid low builds and, of course, its always those guys who insist on "you have to know what you're doing".
You dont have to push 40+ Amps per battery to achieve "cloudZ, bro".
I know exactly what type of dullards you're refering to. Stupid low builds and, of course, its always those guys who insist on "you have to know what you're doing".
You dont have to push 40+ Amps per battery to achieve "cloudZ, bro".
I thought it was obvious that I was just joking around.
I know exactly what type of dullards you're refering to. Stupid low builds and, of course, its always those guys who insist on "you have to know what you're doing".
You dont have to push 40+ Amps per battery to achieve "cloudZ, bro".
Oh I know.. but it was still a valid point to bring up though...
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