When it comes to devices where does the true responsibility for safety rest

[Marc411]

Whether it’s a mech or a regulated device new product is being released at a fairly rapid rate. There has been a lot of conversation around power ratings beyond the capacity of the battery.

Dual 18650 devices rated for 200W
Single 26650 rated for 100W
Single 18650 rated for 90W
LIPO at 200W

Personally I became educated (well to the best of my ability), between Baditude, Mooch and several others I learned ohms law and to match my build to the power level I was going to use and the cells capacity.

So is it a shared responsibility between the manufacturer and the user?

Everyone asks for more power, I would use the Provari Radius as the example. When they released their new 40W device many in the thread said they wouldn’t order one, not enough power and a single cell. I agree on the cell (although I bought my first in the Radius) but like dual cell for battery life.

Are users basically pushing the power race and are manufacturers basically in an arms races?

For what it’s worth regulated or unregulated I believe it’s our responsibility to use equipment responsibly but I also believe that power tools and automobiles fall into the same category.

 

[edyle]

the manufacturers have a responsibility.
The end user has a responsibility.
Just like cars and power tools.

A good example might be those 18650 batteries with the almost non existent brand/labelling, like the sony vtc's; clearly they are not made as a consumer grade item

 

[zoiDman]

I think the 1st thing I would do is Define the term "Responsibility".

 

[Bad Ninja]

First and foremost, as an adult, YOU are the only one responsible for your own safety.

Depending on others to look out for you is not the sign of a responsible adult, that's what children do.

You are responsible for educating yourself before buying and using any tool or device.

If you aren't acting responsibly you can get hurt.


Manufacturers have a responsibility to manufacture a quality product, and to be honest in advertising.
If they don't, they lose customers.

As adults we cannot ignore our responsibility to ourselves and place that burden on a company selling items.
No one forces anyone to buy gear.

 

[petrotech]

First and foremost, as an adult, YOU are the only one responsible for your own safety.

Depending on others to look out for you is not the sign of a responsible adult, that's what children do.

You are responsible for educating yourself before buying and using any tool or device.

If you aren't acting responsibly you can get hurt.


Manufacturers have a responsibility to manufacture a quality product, and to be honest in advertising.
If they don't, they loose customers.

As adults we cannot ignore our responsibility to ourselves and place that burden on a company selling items.
No one forces anyone to buy gear.

What he said.

Only time I have an issue with a manufacturer is when they straight up lie/mislead consumers.

Barring that, it's completely up to the individual for their own safety. If you don't know what you're doing, don't do it. If you can't understand that you're putting a potential pipe bomb next to your face every time you vape, you don't need to be vaping.

Just my two cents.

 

[Marc411]

I think the 1st thing I would do is Define the term "Responsibility".

Good point!

• The opportunity or ability to act independently and make decision.
• The state or fact of having a duty to deal with something or of having control.
• A duty or obligation to satisfactorily perform or complete a task.

With that begin said a good example would be devices manufactured like I noted above in the OP. Sigelei just released a 90W single cell 18650, others are discussing the Stout 100W with a single cell 26650. While both may be able to handle short continuous or pulse with a low resistance build at high wattage long periods of vaping on the same cell is probably not advisable.

Is it the responsibility of the manufacturer not to build these types of devices? Or the person who purchased the device and batteries to use them as designed and built obtaining the proper knowledge to use them responsibly?

 

[KenD]

Obviously the consumer is ultimately responsible for his/her safety. However, the consumer is in his/her right to expect a device to be safe when used in its parameters. The manufacturer is responsible to create a device that can be safely used within its parameters.

Take guns as an example. The user is naturally responsible if the gun is used to shoot oneself or another person. However, if the gun explodes when used due to being wrongly constructed the manufacturer should be blamed.

Sent from my M7_PLUS using Tapatalk

 

[Marc411]

Using your example Ken then should B&M's be held responsible for anyone that purchases a mech device and a 10A battery? Or that mechs by design could accepts a battery less that 20A?

If a gun own reloads and uses to much powder and the gun explodes who's at fault?

 

[zoiDman]

...

Is it the responsibility of the manufacturer not to build these types of devices? Or the person who purchased the device and batteries to use them as designed and built obtaining the proper knowledge to use them responsibly?

Questions like this are Difficult to Answer. Because things like "Proper Knowledge" are hard to Quantify. And to what Level of Knowledge should Risk and or Safety be pegged to?

There is also the Concept of when does One Responsibility Supersede another? And how does Inherent Risk and Potential for Serious Injury play into things?

If an OEM of a Product can use a Design that Significantly Reduces the Potential for Serious Injury, don't they have a Responsibility to do so? The same goes with Providing enough Information about their Product, that a Lay Person can understand, isn't this a Responsibility Also?

 

[entropy1049]

Using your example Ken then should B&M's be held responsible for anyone that purchases a mech device and a 10A battery? Or that mechs by design could accepts a battery less that 20A?

If a gun own reloads and uses to much powder and the gun explodes who's at fault?

IMO,

Nope.



The reloader.

 

[zoiDman]

...

If a gun own reloads and uses to much powder and the gun explodes who's at fault?

Fault and Responsibility are two Unique Concepts.

It was the Reloader's Fault that the Gun Exploded. It was the Gun's OEM and the Powder's Manufacture Responsibility to provided adequate Writing Warnings that Improper Reloading can cause a Firearm to Explode.

 

[Marc411]

zioD, not remotely thinking about busting chops, but should anyone even think about reloading without educating themselves first.

We all welcome new members to the site and then point them to Steam Engine, Mooches or Baditude's blog and Susan posts at least a dozen great links on safety. Most of us promote education. Some disregard it, some think they don't need it and then weeks later they are the same one's that ask if a .1 ohm coil is safe in a device. Let's just say they throw an Efest in it and the battery vents.

Who's responsibility is it for the failure.

There are 1000 analogies I can use and they all come back to the same place. Personal responsibility, education and self accountability.

Are manufacturers just giving their customers what they are asking for assuming they are responsible and educated? Or is it that they really don't care?

 

[zoiDman]

zioD, not remotely thinking about busting chops, but should anyone even think about reloading without educating themselves first.

...

Now were onto a 3rd Concept. Amount of Education.

The Should or Shouldn't someone Educate themselves to me Isn't all that Viable. Because I know, given a General Population, there will be Plenty of People who will Not Educate themselves. Or will "think" they know what is Going On. When in fact, they Don't.

I think you are seeing why I said Earlier that the Question about Responsibility, and the Share of that is or should be Held, is a Difficult question to answer.

Responsibility to me has to be Weighed against the Severity of the Outcome if there is a Problem.

I can Recommend an e-Liquid Flavor to someone who asked me what is "good juice"? And I don't feel I Bare much Responsibility if the person tries it and they Don't like it.

But I can't say the Same thing if someone Asks me what Battery they should use in their Mod. And I tell them a Trustfire is Fine. And they Blow their Teeth Out when their Mod Explodes.

Are OEM's different? Doesn't an OEM assume some Responsibility if they Know their Product can cause Sever Harm if used Improperly? And they do not Adequately try to Minimize the Chances of this Occurring?

 

[Bad Ninja]

Now were onto a 3rd Concept. Amount of Education.

The Should or Shouldn't someone Educate themselves to me Isn't all that Viable. Because I know, given a General Population, there will be Plenty of People who will Not Educate themselves. Or will "think" they know what is Going On. When in fact, they Don't.

I think you are seeing why I said Earlier that the Question about Responsibility, and the Share of that is or should be Held, is a Difficult question to answer.

Responsibility to me has to be Weighed against the Severity of the Outcome if there is a Problem.

I can Recommend an e-Liquid Flavor to someone who asked me what is "good juice"? And I don't feel I Bare much Responsibility if the person tries it and they Don't like it.

But I can't say the Same thing if someone Asks me what Battery they should use in their Mod. And I tell them a Trustfire is Fine. And they Blow their Teeth Out when their Mod Explodes.

Are OEM's different? Doesn't an OEM assume some Responsibility if they Know their Product can cause Sever Harm if used Improperly? And they do not Adequately try to Minimize the Chances of this Occurring?

Many products can harm you if used improperly.

"For advanced users only".

You see this disclaimer almost everywhere a mechanical mod is sold.
Some foolishly disregard the warning.
If you use the wrong battery, you are not an advanced user and shouldn't have used a mechanical in the first place.
It's up to adults to use a bit of common sense, and take responsibility for their dumb actions.

 

[zoiDman]

Many products can harm you if used improperly.

"For advanced users only".

You see this disclaimer almost everywhere a mechanical mod is sold.
Some foolishly disregard the warning.
If you use the wrong battery, you are not an advanced user and shouldn't have used a mechanical in the first place.
It's up to adults to use a bit of common sense, and take responsibility for their dumb actions.

What Exactly is an "Advanced User" ?

Not saying that Adults shouldn't use "Common Sense" (whatever that is?) or that they shouldn't have a Share of the Responsibility in all this. Perhaps the Larger Share in some cases.

But I also think that OEM's have a Responsibility Also.

 

[Bad Ninja]

What Exactly is an "Advanced User" ?

Not saying that Adults shouldn't use "Common Sense" (whatever that is?) or that they shouldn't have a Share of the Responsibility in all this. Perhaps the Larger Share in some cases.

But I also think that OEM's have a Responsibility Also.

Advanced user is someone who fully understands how the device works, and fully understands the dangers associated with using said item.
No instructions needed.

This is where people need to understand their own limitations.

A mod has no ego. Neither does a battery.
It doesn't care if someone thinks they are an "advanced user" or not.

Example:
I understand how all my gear works.
I understand the dangers of using kanthal to short an IMR battery to get my nicotine fix.
I understand what can go wrong, and I'm aware of how to deal with it.
I may still get hurt, but it's a risk I take . If I get hurt, it's my responsibility.
I don't need to be told the dangers.
I knew them going in.

 

[zoiDman]

Advanced user is someone who fully understands how the device works, and fully understands the dangers associated with using said item.
No instructions needed.

This is where people need to understand their own limitations.

...

This is Great. But does everyone Know/Agree on your Definition of what an "Advanced User" is? Because if there are those Who Don't, for "Advanced Users" kinda loses it's meaning.

If I'm an OEM, and make a Hybrid Style Mech Mod that has No Venting holes, is it OK to sell it as long as I put "For Advanced Users" somewhere in the Description?

 

[Ablonz]

To the OP @Marc411 I agree with you but I am sure some will not. In the way I was brought up, I account for all of my OWN actions. You can only lead a horse to water, you can not make them drink. Sure you could knock them out and hook up an I.V. I would not want anyone else telling me how and what to do in life but I will take into consideration of everyone else around me though. They may be on the opposite side of the fence. It seems to many people are becoming lazy and not wanting to learn about anything they are doing or going to be doing. Common sense is what it boils down to. For every action, there is a total and opposite reaction. Warnings, labels, manuals are there, not followed, someone or something will get hurt. It goes with anything we do in life. Manufactures and OEM's can only lead you to the water. They build what consumers want or need only to a certain degree. Nothing in life is 100% safe or guarantied except one thing, death......whether it be living or man made. Take it for what it is worth to you. As far as "Advanced User" if they do not know the meaning of advanced, then they are not advanced. All one would have to do is look up the definition of advanced to find out if they are considered an "advanced user". Or they could ask someone else who is competent to find out for them. That would be my 2 cents. ***Or just maybe, I may be doing it all wrong and should only hold others responsible for my action and then it would become a major loop. If the user isn't responsible because they didn't make the item, the manufacturer is not responsible because they did not make the user use it. Entered as being very sarcastic***

 

[Bad Ninja]

This is Great. But does everyone Know/Agree on your Definition of what an "Advanced User" is? Because if there are those Who Don't, for "Advanced Users" kinda loses it's meaning.

If I'm an OEM, and make a Hybrid Style Mech Mod that has No Venting holes, is it OK to sell it as long as I put "For Advanced Users" somewhere in the Description?

As said above, if you don't know f you are an "advanced user" is, you aren't one.

If someone is unsure what's meant by "for advanced users only" common sense dictates they aren't one.

Again, this is vaping. Where adult addicts short circuit batteries to get their nic fix.
Let's stay in context.

 

[zoiDman]

As said above, if you don't know f you are an "advanced user" is, you aren't one.

If someone is unsure what's meant by "for advanced users only" common sense dictates they aren't one.

Again, this is vaping. Where adult addicts short circuit batteries to get their nic fix.
Let's stay in context.

So am I correct in thinking that you Believe that an OEM can make anything they want. All they have to do is put for "For Advanced Users" in the Description and then they have No Responsibility for what happens?