When it comes to devices where does the true responsibility for safety rest

[Bad Ninja]

That would be a fun research project. I don't know if that is all of them or if the info on what they produce is current. However nothing stops rewrapping one of those cells...

ie this one: 18650 3.7v2200mah cell - News - Sincpower Qinhuangdao Xinchi Photoelectric Technology Co., Ltd. - lithium ion battery manufacture

or maybe this is an ebay "25r" 18650 3.7v2200mah - News - Sincpower Qinhuangdao Xinchi Photoelectric Technology Co., Ltd. - lithium ion battery manufacture

Many of the companies listed are contracted to produce for a single
Buyer, which is why the application is listed.
Some may or may not actually manufacture anything. ( see the bottom of that list).

There aren't it of companies that actually manufacture 18650 LiMN batteries.

It's not a small venture, and no one does it just to sell to vapers.

 

[0blong]

It's not a small venture, and no one does it just to sell to vapers.

Its true, but [re]wrapping can be done easily. Those new XXXfires come from somewhere. At times they were really bad and reclaimed cells or legitimately fake cells inside. I cut open the ones I had and they were legit new batts of unknown origin and low capacity.

There aren't it of companies that actually manufacture 18650 LiMN batteries.

There aren't a HUGE amount of high capacity/high CD cell manufacturers but there are way more than just the big boys. That 20A, if the specs are close could pass for any number of 4 pole positive offerings which undoubtedly cost more. An end user would have to have the means to test capacity or notice their batteries last much less. The recharge cycles are low... something you'd find out after a few months or more.

Many of the companies listed are contracted to produce for a single
Buyer, which is why the application is listed.

I don't know why you think that. They also assemble larger battery packs for the listed applications, some of these are made from 18650s.

my low hanging fruit poster boy here sells directly to the public: high power 18650 2.6Ah, 2.8Ah, 3.0Ah cells - RC Groups

so an enterprising individual who buys a bunch of wrappers should have no trouble getting what they need from a company that frankly sounds desperate to pay off their fab. Some of those guys sell 18650s in paper cases.... They don't make anything and are taking rejects from LG?

my imren as you said isn't manufactured by imren... but then who? Its a 10A batt and really has 3000mah (as tested by mooch). Several of those vendors had similar batteries, its just difficult tracking them down as the sites are crap, especially english versions. Same for the fake 25rs.. who made them. I can't even stop their sale by a US based supplier.

You are right in the point that the main players are the only ones you can really trust to deliver the 20A and MAH rating at the pinnacle of LiMN tech... the problem is you can hardly be sure a legit cell is in your hands. Even major suppliers like ilumn can get tricked and have to actively test every single batch.

nobody counterfeits cells....

also here: li-ion battery 3.7v 3000mah / li-ion battery 3.7v 2000mah / li-ion battery 3.7v 1000mah, View li-ion battery 3.7v 3000mah, Howell/OEM, Howell/ OEM Product Details from Howell Energy (Shenzhen) Co., Ltd. on Alibaba.com

samsung, lg, sanyo made at the same fab.

 

[Bad Ninja]

Many times these re wrapped batteries are ICR or low CDR cells, who knows what they are.

Now if all your posts were to correct one statent that no one counterfeits cells I'll give you this:
It was a general statement that was most likely incorrect, however you can't prove that it's anything more than a low drain cell re weapped.

 

[0blong]

you can't prove that it's anything more than a low drain cell re weapped

No and that is the problem. The 20A battery proves the little guys are starting to advance on density, a lot of the other homegrown formula batteries are 1C and have weak specs. So the fakes are going to get harder to spot no matter how much research you do.

The whole post wasn't just saying its easy to counterfeit but that people do have LiMN battery factories and they aren't owned by LG/Panasonic/etc.

This machine is not for re-wrapping.

you can buy your own stuff too: Linyi Gelon LIB Co., Ltd. - lithium battery cathode materials LFP LCO NMC LMO,lithium battery anode materials MCMB LTO natural graphite

 

[Bad Ninja]

No and that is the problem. The 20A battery proves the little guys are starting to advance on density, a lot of the other homegrown formula batteries are 1C and have weak specs. So the fakes are going to get harder to spot no matter how much research you do.

The whole post wasn't just saying its easy to counterfeit but that people do have LiMN battery factories and they aren't owned by LG/Panasonic/etc.

This machine is not for re-wrapping.

You are assuming a lot, and twisting keywords.
"Homegrown" LiMN 18650 batteries?
No. LiMN batteries can't be made in a small shop. The materials alone are cost prohibitive.
Mislabeled inferior cells? Sure.
"Manufacturing plants" set up and started to build counterfeit cells?
Who would buy them? How would they a profit?

 

[0blong]

"Homegrown" LiMN 18650 batteries?

I assume multiple large battery OEMs subbing out to a single Chinese factory while their own offerings don't boast impressive specs means that LG/Samsung/etc control+invent the chemical formula which produces those specs.

"Manufacturing plants" set up and started to build counterfeit cells?

Somebody did set up a manufacturing plant to build the above fake battery or used one. The other guys that actually make cells from scratch are just making them. Its not counterfeit until you rewrap it. Granted they may be ....ty batteries for vapers but 3000mah at 1C is fine for many applications, especially built into a pack and cheap to buy.

A production line and materials can be purchased right from linyi. I didn't quote a whole line but I'm sure they'll walk you through the costs and processes if you talk to them. Bolivia did it: Turn-key project - Linyi Gelon LIB Co., Ltd. they paid 2.9mil for a rather large scale plant, that isn't .....

Latin American Herald Tribune - Bolivia to Get Chinese-Made Pilot Plant for Making Lithium Batteries

 

[Bad Ninja]

I assume multiple large battery OEMs subbing out to a single Chinese factory while their own offerings don't boast impressive specs means that LG/Samsung/etc control+invent the chemical formula which produces those specs.



Somebody did set up a manufacturing plant to build the above fake battery or used one. The other guys that actually make cells from scratch are just making them. Its not counterfeit until you rewrap it. Granted they may be ....ty batteries for vapers but 3000mah at 1C is fine for many applications, especially built into a pack and cheap to buy.

A production line and materials can be purchased right from linyi. I didn't quote a whole line but I'm sure they'll walk you through the costs and processes if you talk to them. Bolivia did it: Turn-key project - Linyi Gelon LIB Co., Ltd. they paid 2.9mil for a rather large scale plant, that isn't .....

Latin American Herald Tribune - Bolivia to Get Chinese-Made Pilot Plant for Making Lithium Batteries

2.9 million.
They already have buyers and contracts, which is why they spent the money.

I think we are getting way off topic, but is an interesting topic, and I enjoy discussing it.
Maybe you can make a thread about battery manufacturing and ahoot me a link so we can continue and maybe get some feedback from other members who may know more about this than both of us.

 

[0blong]

True, this thread seems dead anyways with some people saying OEMs need to back up their products and give warnings and others that its all on the end user. I think its a gray area because of what I've been posting.

I just researched this battery stuff in a few minutes, but I have had experience with china products being a cheapskate mediocre engineer. Don't know why "only a few people" make all the batteries is repeated as fact. It is right that only a few people make GOOD batteries suitable for our application. Maybe in 2007 it was true. The small cell swapper only needed a 10-20k machine (tubes/etc), batteries from a cheap fab like above and some labels. The buyers and contracts come after, distributors search by price. Counterfeiters can buy a few 100 batteries to send out and then poison the batches with fakes. .1 cents per piece vs $3 per piece is a lot at volume.

Wanna know something else... we get crap batteries no matter what we buy. LG/Panasonic and the others reserve their top grade cells for large people like tesla hp, dell. Like with CPUs, the best chip becomes the flagship but they all come off the same piece of silicon, priced and marked, sometimes crippled appropriately. Smaller orders to relative nobodys are getting lower grade batches.

notice rank C on the box.. its for capacity and performance (there are B/D for sale too). that's why average or nominal capacity is listed on spec sheets. Getting real rank A cells or finding out about this practice is difficult indeed.

 

[Bad Ninja]

Your right about is getting the crappy end of production. Our industry is an afterthought. The big bucks just aren't there yet.
The sony VTC cells weren't even intended to be sold individually to the public.
In fact most of these cells are intended for use in packs.
After the contract is filled, we get the leftovers or the end-of-run stuff.
Lol

The best we can do is order from trusted vendors and vape safely.

 

[0blong]

We're always going to get the short end of the stick. There aren't enough A cells to go around. They crank them out 24/7 but only a certain % make the cut. My A-grade old recycled CGR18650D outperform or match NCR18650PF grade C at 2A. As does sanyo UR18650FK, despite these being only 5A batteries, MAH being lower and constant use for 2 years+. Don't know if the chemistry just deals better with lower currents or if the difference in grades is indeed that big. Need testing equipment like mooch has to prove it beyond what I consistently see on the vamo puff counter.

Speaking of that... every mod I bought, voltage and count is missing, amp draw is a pipe dream. No company in 2016 values how much mileage you're getting from your battery. Error of omission, users don't care, or simply covering for the fakers. More vaping companies are wrapping their own "40A" 3xxx mah batteries, too.

 

[Stinkytofus]

Whether it’s a mech or a regulated device new product is being released at a fairly rapid rate. There has been a lot of conversation around power ratings beyond the capacity of the battery.

Dual 18650 devices rated for 200W
Single 26650 rated for 100W
Single 18650 rated for 90W
LIPO at 200W

Personally I became educated (well to the best of my ability), between Baditude, Mooch and several others I learned ohms law and to match my build to the power level I was going to use and the cells capacity.

So is it a shared responsibility between the manufacturer and the user?

Everyone asks for more power, I would use the Provari Radius as the example. When they released their new 40W device many in the thread said they wouldn’t order one, not enough power and a single cell. I agree on the cell (although I bought my first in the Radius) but like dual cell for battery life.

Are users basically pushing the power race and are manufacturers basically in an arms races?

For what it’s worth regulated or unregulated I believe it’s our responsibility to use equipment responsibly but I also believe that power tools and automobiles fall into the same category.

responsibility rests on the seller to inform and the buyer to learn and KNOW what not to do, but majority of the times seller doesn't inform completely and buyer doesn't find out more and "stuff" happens

best way to go is use regulated, with good authentic batteries and vaping below the amp limit (steam engine site), i honestly dont think anybody will vape 150W plus on a daily basis.... just my opinion tho