Why is WTA such a controversial subject?

[Mr.Mann]

From what (little) I know (and in agreement with snork), alkaloid content may vary by strain of tobacco. This is why it's so important to research the specific tobacco one plans to use in such an extraction. That said, at least it's not the pyrolysis byproduct of nicotine, which is rather carcinogenic in and of itself.

We're all in agreement there, which is why I previously said

My thoughts on this (I touched on it last night) would be that the certain alkaloids are in differing proportions depending on the tobacco used--I am certain each vendor uses completely different tobaccos strains/blends.

And we're certainly all in agreement that this is still far, far from smoking.

Akin to WTA content, TSNA content can vary just as wildly depending on whether you're looking at a producer or non-producer (tobacco strain) of TSNAs.

Just make sure to research the certain type of tobacco you're using, make sure it isn't a known producer of TSNAs, or you're going to concentrate the harmful ones alongside the desired ones.

Now, I don't know if we're quite in agreement here. Sure, fresh/un-dried tobacco as opposed to any cured/fermented (unpasteurized) tobacco will have vastly different levels of TSNAs (the curing/fermenting/processing is, as far as I know, what produces TSNAs formation, or the nitrosation of the amines in tobacco into TSNA), but I don't believe raw, uncured tobacco, can even be used optimally for consumption (smoking, extracting, etc.). Plus, TSNAs are of course specific to tobacco, hence the name, and I don't think there is a such tobacco that is a "non-producer" of them.

From what I know, in uncured tobacco, TSNAs are in trace amounts, and in cured tobacco (even more in fermented tobacco) is where you see the spike (unless it's been pasteurized like snus); even in the same sample of cured tobacco, depending on how long it has been stored and the temperature in which it is stored, the TSNA levels can be higher after time has passed.

What does all of that mean? How the hell should I know?! LOL. Seriously though, I guess the point is that there is likely some detectable amount of TSNAs in WTA, meaning in the tobacco used, but to what degree is the question. Even if untreated tobacco is used, that's not saying that it is uncured. I would like to imagine a day (maybe it's now?) when WTA was made from pasteurized tobacco, much like snus, so that the TSNAs can be more stabilized at lower "safe(er)" levels--that is not to say though, totally absent of TSNAs. So I don't know if any research of a usable tobacco to "make sure it isn't a known producer of TSNAs" will yield any results.

Resources used for this post:

Tobacco.org Progress Report
EFFECT OF BALE SIZE AND DENSITY ON TSNA FORMATION IN BALED BURLEY TOBACCO (Tobacco Science)
Effect of smokeless tobacco (snus) on smoking and public health in Sweden (PDF)

 

[VaporMizer]

I wonder why WTA isn't more available from large scale producers? It should actually be much easier and cheaper to extract than pure nicotine.

Why would you believe that? You have more to extract purely, and very specifically.

Well, for one thing there's this Dvap quote that Mr. Mann provided earlier in this thread:

For those that don't know, a chemist here on ECF named Dvap pioneered the process in late '09
for extracting the "whole alkaloid spread" from tobacco and created the term *WTA to represent it. He once stated:

"1. When you extract tobacco, you get 95% nicotine and 5% other alkaloids. Very sophisticated techniques could be used to separate the minor alkaloids from the nicotine, but this would be extremely involved and astronomically expensive. Far easier to extract WTA and simply dilute with PG/VG.

There's more, but I don't feel like digging for it. It is just easier to target alkaloids in general rather than single out specific alkaloids seems to be the gist of it all.

 

[Mr.Mann]

There's more, but I don't feel like digging for it. It is just easier to target alkaloids in general rather than single out specific alkaloids seems to be the gist of it all.

Well, what I find to be interesting is that there are, as far as I know, no known US nicotine suppliers, but we have had a few US WTA suppliers. LOL

 

[VaporMizer]

Well, what I find to be interesting is that there are, as far as I know, no known US nicotine suppliers, but we have had a few US WTA suppliers. LOL

Yeah...I think when Dvap said it would be incredibly difficult and expensive to isolate the nicotine he meant when using regular small lab techniques. The cost per unit is probably almost nil with giant multi-billion dollar dedicated nicotine processing plants like the Chinese and others have.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Yeah...I think when Dvap said it would be incredibly difficult and expensive to isolate the nicotine he meant when using regular small lab techniques. The cost per unit is probably almost nil with giant multi-billion dollar dedicated nicotine processing plants like the Chinese and others have.

Yeah. I couldn't resist making the comparison though.

Hey VM, maybe you have an idea on this: What I would like to know is, and I am having trouble finding an answer on, does the tobacco processing effect the total alkaloid concentration, or is that inherent to the tobacco prior to and irrespective of processing? Since TSNAs are inextricably linked to curing/fermenting, can fresh leaf tobacco even be extracted for alkaloids? I know some indigenous people smoke uncured tobacco, but with that, we're still talking inhaling the combustion of tobacco (cured or not). I think the levels of alkaloids are off the charts in uncured tobacco and I've read it is known to have other alkaloids that would also pose a problem (deliriants). But, I am not sure on this.

 

[snork]

Yeah...I think when Dvap said it would be incredibly difficult and expensive to isolate the nicotine he meant when using regular small lab techniques. The cost per unit is probably almost nil with giant multi-billion dollar dedicated nicotine processing plants like the Chinese and others have.

Don't doubt that when they think there's a buck to be made they won't do exactly that.

 

[VaporMizer]

Yeah. I couldn't resist making the comparison though.

Hey VM, maybe you have an idea on this: What I would like to know is, and I am having trouble finding an answer on, does the tobacco processing effect the total alkaloid concentration, or is that inherent to the tobacco prior to and irrespective of processing? Since TSNAs are inextricably linked to curing/fermenting, can fresh leaf tobacco even be extracted for alkaloids? I know some indigenous people smoke uncured tobacco, but with that, we're still talking inhaling the combustion of tobacco (cured or not). I think the levels of alkaloids are off the charts in uncured tobacco and I've read it is known to have other alkaloids that would also pose a problem (deliriants). But, I am not sure on this.

I know some curing techniques are aimed at lowering alkaloid content, like soaking Rustica in water. The alkaloids are water soluble.

I don't know beyond that really, interesting question though. When you think about it, there must be an ideal state for extracting alkaloids from tobacco but I doubt it's much of an issue for the sophisticated dedicated processing facilities.

I would think that the easiest way for a small home lab to insure a balance would be to use tobacco already cured for smoking, although that is probably not very cost effective.

Air cured is my guess for highest alkaloids, least TSNA. Fire cured and fermentation curing would definitely add TSNAs.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Just found this from FPO (free patents online):

Process for determining the alkaloid content of uncured tobacco (From 1883 )

 

[snork]

While you guys ponder this minutiae, do you stop to wonder what's in your juice? What have you done to physically verify its integrity?

 

[Mr.Mann]

While you guys ponder this minutiae, do you stop to wonder what's in your juice? What have you done to physically verify its integrity?

I throw it in the toilet and see if it sinks.

 

[VaporMizer]

While you guys ponder this minutiae, do you stop to wonder what's in your juice? What have you done to physically verify its integrity?

Nothing...I don't find that minutiae as interesting as the other minutiae.

 

[VaporMizer]

I know this has been other people's guess too...but if I were going to try a DIY WTA (which I will someday) my first pick would be air cured Rustica, and second choice would be air cured Burley....and I'd be sure to have something like the Wizard Labs nicotine test kit if it's ever in stock. I think Dvap covered an effective way to test nicotine levels in a thread here at ECF too.

I would try the ice water alkaloid soak method mentioned by the vendor who is not to be named in that deleted post...just seems relatively safer, no solvents. Would definitely still require nic testing and general safety procedures, though.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I know this has been other people's guess too...but if I were going to try a DIY WTA (which I will someday) my first pick would be air cured Rustica, and second choice would be air cured Burley....and I'd be sure to have something like the Wizard Labs nicotine test kit if it's ever in stock. I think Dvap covered an effective way to test nicotine levels in a thread here at ECF too.

I would try the ice water alkaloid soak method mentioned by the vendor who is not to be named in that deleted post...just seems relatively safer, no solvents. Would definitely still require nic testing and general safety procedures, though.

the other minutiae.

So much is known about the low levels of TSNAs in snus and the solid alkaloid profile, and this is attributed to the pasteurization of the tobacco used in snus. Even Dvap here made some WTA by using snus and called it "for all intents and purposes, as clean as it gets".

Unfortunately, and apparently, the pasteurization process is quite complicated and there is no (as far as I can see) bulk buying of pasteurized tobacco. But, if you were going to do it (I wouldn't, haha), why not use snus?

VM, check this monograph out (go to page 428): SOME TOBACCO-SPECIFIC N-NITROSAMINES

 

[VaporMizer]

VM, check this monograph out (go to page 428): SOME TOBACCO-SPECIFIC N-NITROSAMINES

Well, the air cured still sounds like the way to go (if not snus) but this says bright tobaccos have less TSNAs...although I know Burley has a higher nicotine content, plus the extremely high sugar contents of bright Virginias would make it a bad choice for the ice water extraction method, so I guess I would still go with air cured Burley but remove the central vein, where the TSNAs are most concentrated according to that source.

Are the TSNAs alkaloids? If not, they could mostly be avoided in the extraction process.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Well, the air cured still sounds like the way to go (if not snus) but this says bright tobaccos have less TSNAs...although I know Burley has a higher nicotine content, plus the extremely high sugar contents of bright Virginias would make it a bad choice for the ice water extraction method, so I guess I would still go with air cured Burley but remove the central vein, where the TSNAs are most concentrated according to that source.

Are the TSNAs alkaloids? If not, they could mostly be avoided in the extraction process.

They are derived from the alkaloids, but I think they are distinguished from nitrosated (what the hell does that mean?) amines. I don't think they are considered alkaloids, but, dude, I don't really know.

 

[VaporMizer]

They are derived from the alkaloids, but I think they are distinguished from nitrosated (what the hell does that mean?) amines. I don't think they are considered alkaloids, but, dude, I don't really know.

Yeah...everytime I start thinking about this I get more and more bogged down in the weeds. I haven't had a cigarette in 16 months so I guess I should just leave well enough alone.

It's weird though....it's like I miss having the addiction more than I miss the cigarettes themselves.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Yeah...everytime I start thinking about this I get more and more bogged down in the weeds. I haven't had a cigarette in 16 months so I guess I should just leave well enough alone.

It's weird though....it's like I miss having the addiction more than I miss the cigarettes themselves.

That's the cool thing with WTA--it gives you something that you'll most likely always crave, but without most of what made you give it up to begin with. I'll likely always have a bottle of unflavored WTA (hopefully).

 

[Mr.Mann]

VM, as goofy as this may seem (more like, d'uh), I think TSNAs are not considered alkaloids, but just carcinogens.

 

[Brobdingnagian]

Good point that the curing process has a heavy influence on the TSNA content. I was poking around and found some more confusing information about low/no-tsna tobacco from Clemson which probably has to do with the curing for burley and another strain I can't identify.

I do know that the GALE/Cengage database has a lot more, though I might have to poke around the Library of Congress and NIH databases to actually get studies I can link to (additionally, I think my access to GALE has expired ) that have to do with the producing and non-producing aspects of TSNAs in relation to tobacco.

The only other information I can find only gives me half of the equation. I need to do some more research, but storage conditions and curing methods might be big factors in this. My mind keeps going to a fresh bottle of e-liquid and how it visibly looks in comparison to an older one- is the same exact thing going on with tobacco but creating these nitrosamines in the process?

If so, could green/fresh tobacco be used in extractions? I'm thinking 'yes', but only if you don't want to actually get flavor out of the tobacco and are aiming purely for alkaloids and nicotine prior to whatever goes on in curing/processing to potentially make TSNAs form.

Then again, can they potentially form afterwards from the extracted alkaloids? What has to happen at that point to make them form, if they even can?

Now I have more questions than answers, again.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Good point that the curing process has a heavy influence on the TSNA content. I was poking around and found some more confusing information about low/no-tsna tobacco from Clemson which probably has to do with the curing for burley and another strain I can't identify.

I do know that the GALE/Cengage database has a lot more, though I might have to poke around the Library of Congress and NIH databases to actually get studies I can link to (additionally, I think my access to GALE has expired ) that have to do with the producing and non-producing aspects of TSNAs in relation to tobacco.

The only other information I can find only gives me half of the equation. I need to do some more research, but storage conditions and curing methods might be big factors in this. My mind keeps going to a fresh bottle of e-liquid and how it visibly looks in comparison to an older one- is the same exact thing going on with tobacco but creating these nitrosamines in the process?

If so, could green/fresh tobacco be used in extractions? I'm thinking 'yes', but only if you don't want to actually get flavor out of the tobacco and are aiming purely for alkaloids and nicotine prior to whatever goes on in curing/processing to potentially make TSNAs form.

Then again, can they potentially form afterwards from the extracted alkaloids? What has to happen at that point to make them form, if they even can?

Now I have more questions than answers, again.

Here is a patent application for the process of curing tobacco with "(TSNA) levels which are (usually) undetectable and are similar to levels found in freshly harvested, green tobacco." It has to do with controlled air flow, controlled humidity, temperature, etc.--there's also a plethora of insight contained within this application: Patent application title: Tobacco Curing Method Now, of course that is an application and I have no idea if that is patented or if it even works, but it is cool to see (published in '12).