Why Vapers are getting a BAD NAME.

[zoiDman]

Wasn't conducive to the moment. This is third or fourth time I vaped in a restaurant in 2014. The other times, I did ask staff and was granted the right to vape indoors in their establishment. Sometimes I choose not to ask. For various reasons, I may not ask.

...

Wasn't Conducive to the Moment?

You ask to speak to the Manager and ask Him/Her one simple Question. "Is it OK for me to use an e-Cigarette inside your Business?"

Some might Question that a Person Didn't Ask because they were afraid that the Manager would say No.

And all that talk about Being Respective and Business Owners having the Right to Allow or Deny e-Cigarette use was just Rhetoric. And that Some Didn't Actually mean it.

 

[Jman8]

Wasn't Conducive to the Moment?

You ask to speak to the Manager and ask Him/Her one simple Question. "Is it OK for me to use an e-Cigarette inside your Business?"

Yes, I understand how the process works. It wasn't conducive to the moment to ask that question. Do you need me to define "conducive" or "moment" for you to understand what I mean by that?

Some might Question that a Person Didn't Ask because they were afraid that the Manager would say No.

Some might make a statement about such a question in an attempt to shame others who would even consider not asking.

 

[zoiDman]

Yes, I understand how the process works. It wasn't conducive to the moment to ask that question. Do you need me to define "conducive" or "moment" for you to understand what I mean by that?



Some might make a statement about such a question in an attempt to shame others who would even consider not asking.

OK. It wasn't Conducive. Why Wasn't it Conducive?

Even Most of the Extreme vape-Everywhere people in this Thread have Acknowledged that a Business should have the Right to Not Allow e-Cigarette Use in their Businesses. And that Asking is the Proper thing to Do.

Hey I'm just Trying to help you out here. Because many are going to read what you have posted and think that there was a Reason why you Didn't Ask.

And that was because you were Afraid you would be Told No. And then Might have to Honor the Policy of a Business to Not Use e-Cigarettes while inside their Establishment.

 

[chellemmm]

I am OUT. I am too old to argue with a ROCK.

 

[zoiDman]

I am OUT. I am too old to argue with a ROCK.

I hear you chellemmm.

It seems like some people just Can't see that Vaper's Actions can give Vaping a Bad Name. Even when they are Not Physicaly Confronted in a Fast Food joint.

---

Hey I believe that Today is the Deadline for the CTA #2

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/fda-regulations/565571-casaa-fda-call-action-2-a.html

If you know of Anyone who might not know about this, perhaps you can shot them an e-Mail with a Link. Every Bit Helps.

 

[Jman8]

OK. It wasn't Conducive. Why Wasn't it Conducive?

Because of my mood at the time foremost. But also because after placing my order and not knowing then in that moment that I may vape, I stepped back and they (staff of about 5 people) were busy doing their jobs. I went up to counter to ask about something with regards to my order, which was minor, but worth questioning. No staff member came over to me, and appeared to assume I was there just to wait for my order. Hence, on hindsight, it was not conducive to ask about it, unless I really pressed the point (was very vocal about my needing a certain question answered). As I knew I'd engage in respectful vaping, which I did, it was not necessary for me to be vocal on that point.

And as I've asked in other restaurants where it was conducive in the moment to ask, then it does seem to me that your prodding me to ask is you being obtuse.

Perhaps it would help you to realize I live in a state that in 2013 sought to exempt eCigs from indoor bans, so went in opposite direction than other states. That exemption wasn't achieved, but neither is an outright ban on indoor vaping. So, is a gray area, and yet of the places I've asked in lately, majority say yes, in Wisconsin (and I'm talking about restaurants).

Even Most of the Extreme Vape-Everywhere people in this Thread have Acknowledged that a Business should have the Right to Not Allow e-Cigarette Use in their Businesses. And that Asking is the Proper thing to Do.

I'm thinking there is not a person on this thread that is as willing to discuss these points rationally as me while also being firmly in camp of vape everywhere.

I agree that a business has the right to expressively deny vaping, just as that would apply to owners/managers of all outdoor locations on the planet. I do think it is as realistic to ask indoor management as it is to ask outdoor management, and to say vaper indoors has burden that is not shared by outdoor vaper is I think skirting issue of what the counter position in this thread is getting at.

I'll continue to post responses that specifically address your points and to speak both honestly and reasonably, while you can appear to ignore questions I ask or key points I raise, cherry pick what you wish to address, and pretend like your side of the debate is not in any way responsible for outdoor bans of vaping, which has already occurred. I'm okay with record of this thread speaking for itself, and enjoy being thorough in my responses.

 

[chellemmm]

con·du·cive
kənˈd(y)o͞osiv/Submit
adjective
making a certain situation or outcome likely or possible.
"the harsh lights and cameras were hardly conducive to a relaxed atmosphere"
synonyms: favorable to, beneficial to, advantageous to, opportune to, propitious to, encouraging to, promising to, convenient for, good for, helpful, instrumental in, productive of, useful for

 

[Jman8]

I hear you chellemmm.

It seems like some people just Can't see that Vaper's Actions can give Vaping a Bad Name. Even when they are Not Physicaly Confronted in a Fast Food joint.

What you are implying is that respectful vapers are giving vaping a bad name.

Then have the audacity to cite a CTA when your position on this thread favors regulation of vapers against their own respectful or reasonable positions.

Shame filled vapers are giving vapers a bad name, and allowing outdoor bans to make perfect sense, as clearly some vapers think vaping is inherently rude and inconsiderate in certain locations regardless of the circumstances.

 

[chellemmm]

Because of my mood at the time foremost. But also because after placing my order and not knowing then in that moment that I may vape, I stepped back and they (staff of about 5 people) were busy doing their jobs. I went up to counter to ask about something with regards to my order, which was minor, but worth questioning. No staff member came over to me, and appeared to assume I was there just to wait for my order. Hence, on hindsight, it was not conducive to ask about it, unless I really pressed the point (was very vocal about my needing a certain question answered). As I knew I'd engage in respectful vaping, which I did, it was not necessary for me to be vocal on that point.

And as I've asked in other restaurants where it was conducive in the moment to ask, then it does seem to me that your prodding me to ask is you being obtuse.

Perhaps it would help you to realize I live in a state that in 2013 sought to exempt eCigs from indoor bans, so went in opposite direction than other states. That exemption wasn't achieved, but neither is an outright ban on indoor vaping. So, is a gray area, and yet of the places I've asked in lately, majority say yes, in Wisconsin (and I'm talking about restaurants).



I'm thinking there is not a person on this thread that is as willing to discuss these points rationally as me while also being firmly in camp of vape everywhere.

I agree that a business has the right to expressively deny vaping, just as that would apply to owners/managers of all outdoor locations on the planet. I do think it is as realistic to ask indoor management as it is to ask outdoor management, and to say vaper indoors has burden that is not shared by outdoor vaper is I think skirting issue of what the counter position in this thread is getting at.

I'll continue to post responses that specifically address your points and to speak both honestly and reasonably, while you can appear to ignore questions I ask or key points I raise, cherry pick what you wish to address, and pretend like your side of the debate is not in any way responsible for outdoor bans of vaping, which has already occurred. I'm okay with record of this thread speaking for itself, and enjoy being thorough in my responses.

People are only rational if they agree with you? The guy from West Virginia is your Huckleberry...

 

[Jman8]

People are only rational if they agree with you?

Not what my point that you emphasized stated or implied.

The guy from West Virginia is your Huckleberry...

Said the person who is too old to argue with a rock.

 

[zoiDman]

Because of my mood at the time foremost. But also because after placing my order and not knowing then in that moment that I may vape, I stepped back and they (staff of about 5 people) were busy doing their jobs. I went up to counter to ask about something with regards to my order, which was minor, but worth questioning. No staff member came over to me, and appeared to assume I was there just to wait for my order. Hence, on hindsight, it was not conducive to ask about it, unless I really pressed the point (was very vocal about my needing a certain question answered). As I knew I'd engage in respectful vaping, which I did, it was not necessary for me to be vocal on that point.

And as I've asked in other restaurants where it was conducive in the moment to ask, then it does seem to me that your prodding me to ask is you being obtuse.

Perhaps it would help you to realize I live in a state that in 2013 sought to exempt eCigs from indoor bans, so went in opposite direction than other states. That exemption wasn't achieved, but neither is an outright ban on indoor vaping. So, is a gray area, and yet of the places I've asked in lately, majority say yes, in Wisconsin (and I'm talking about restaurants).



I'm thinking there is not a person on this thread that is as willing to discuss these points rationally as me while also being firmly in camp of vape everywhere.

I agree that a business has the right to expressively deny vaping, just as that would apply to owners/managers of all outdoor locations on the planet. I do think it is as realistic to ask indoor management as it is to ask outdoor management, and to say vaper indoors has burden that is not shared by outdoor vaper is I think skirting issue of what the counter position in this thread is getting at.

I'll continue to post responses that specifically address your points and to speak both honestly and reasonably, while you can appear to ignore questions I ask or key points I raise, cherry pick what you wish to address, and pretend like your side of the debate is not in any way responsible for outdoor bans of vaping, which has already occurred. I'm okay with record of this thread speaking for itself, and enjoy being thorough in my responses.

So let's do a Brief Recap:

You walk into a Burger King and place an Order. And because you were Not in the Mood, you Didn't ask the Manager if it is OK to use in e-Cigarette in the Business. So for the 5 minutes of less that it takes to get your Order, you hit on your PV.

And because No One Physically Confronted you on it, that that you feel this is Somehow good for the Vaping Community?

I just don't think you are Seeing the Big Picture here Jman.

I also think you Just Lost All Credibility when you agreed that People Should be Respectful and Ask Business Owners if it is OK to use an e-Cigarette in their Establishment.

 

[chellemmm]

pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffft

 

[zoiDman]

...

Then have the audacity to cite a CTA when your position on this thread favors regulation of vapers against their own respectful or reasonable positions.

...

See Post #1200. And replace wv2win with Jman8

You have No Clue what I do. Or the Efforts I have been involved with in things like CAL AB-1500 or the FDA TPSAC.

 

[Jman8]

So let's do a Brief Recap:

You walk into a Burger King and place an Order. And because you were Not in the Mood, you did ask the Manager if it is OK to use in e-Cigarette in the Business. So for the 5 minutes of less that it takes to get your Order, you hit on your PV.

Slight typo on your part, I think as I did not ask if it is okay to use the eCig in the business. You state that I did.

Order took close to 10 minutes to fill.

While in the restaurant waiting for my order, I stood in about 4 different locations, all in the front part of the store. I noticed zero people sitting down and eating in the restaurant. When I first got in, there were 2 other people (together) who were waiting for their order. I was about 15 feet from them when I took my first puff. They got their order and left the store. I then was all alone (minus staff of course) and vaped a second time, in spot that was pretty close to where the 2 other people were. Then another couple came in, placed their order, stood around and waited. I went up to counter, wanting to ask about something on my order. Got zero response, and didn't feel in that moment like being vocal to ask my question. So, I stepped back from counter, took a puff. Another person came in to place order. The other 2 people waiting for their order had their number called and exited. I then took a 4th puff while me and other single person were waiting for our order. That person's order was fulfilled before mine. I believe I took a 5th puff when in there alone, but may not have. By this time, I was waiting near the counter as I figured my order had to be next and I'm the only patron in the entire restaurant at the time.

That is a more accurate recap.

And because No One Physically Confronted you on it, that that you feel this is Somehow good for the Vaping Community?

I don't think of it as somehow good, other than I did practice respectful vaping when there were other people around and I puffed. I also don't think it was inherently bad or giving all vapers a bad name by using my eCig in those moments that I did.

I just don't think you are Seeing the Big Picture here Jman.

That's fine. I believe I am very clearly seeing the big picture and feel you are often disingenuous or condescending when discussing these sort of items whenever they come up.

And I firmly believe your position is partly responsible for outdoor bans that are either in place or will be floated out there as reasonable consideration given that some vapers consider vaping inherently rude or inconsiderate in certain locations.

 

[Jman8]

I also think you Just Lost All Credibility when you agreed that People Should be Respectful and Ask Business Owners if it is OK to use an e-Cigarette in their Establishment.

I didn't say that.

You've made the "lost all credibility" point several times before when we discuss this, and yet, you magically continue coming back to see if you can chip away at my position.

If I am openly admitting to vaping in hospitals, then you can rest assured I'm not always asking because I know what the response is likely to be if I did ask (in a hospital). Thus, I choose to act otherwise, and still engage in respectful vaping.

That I admit to vaping where it is likely prohibited is where you've previously said I've lost all credibility. I understand your position very well and find it shameful, at times irrational and quite plausibly working against the vaping community. I get that you feel the same way about my position. You are on side of regulations on this issue, and yet are inconsistent when it comes to outdoor vaping. You deflect on that charge whenever it comes up.

The one thing you can rest assuredly from your position is that someday I may post on ECF that I'm no longer batting 1.000 and when that day occurs, I'm sure I'll rethink my stance of vaping indoors or anywhere outdoors. Might not change dramatically, but it'll give me a moment of pause.

Today is not that day.

 

[zoiDman]

Slight typo on your part, I think as I did not ask if it is okay to use the eCig in the business. You state that I did.

Order took close to 10 minutes to fill.

While in the restaurant waiting for my order, I stood in about 4 different locations, all in the front part of the store. I noticed zero people sitting down and eating in the restaurant. When I first got in, there were 2 other people (together) who were waiting for their order. I was about 15 feet from them when I took my first puff. They got their order and left the store. I then was all alone (minus staff of course) and vaped a second time, in spot that was pretty close to where the 2 other people were. Then another couple came in, placed their order, stood around and waited. I went up to counter, wanting to ask about something on my order. Got zero response, and didn't feel in that moment like being vocal to ask my question. So, I stepped back from counter, took a puff. Another person came in to place order. The other 2 people waiting for their order had their number called and exited. I then took a 4th puff while me and other single person were waiting for our order. That person's order was fulfilled before mine. I believe I took a 5th puff when in there alone, but may not have. By this time, I was waiting near the counter as I figured my order had to be next and I'm the only patron in the entire restaurant at the time.

That is a more accurate recap.



I don't think of it as somehow good, other than I did practice respectful vaping when there were other people around and I puffed. I also don't think it was inherently bad or giving all vapers a bad name by using my eCig in those moments that I did.



That's fine. I believe I am very clearly seeing the big picture and feel you are often disingenuous or condescending when discussing these sort of items whenever they come up.

And I firmly believe your position is partly responsible for outdoor bans that are either in place or will be floated out there as reasonable consideration given that some vapers consider vaping inherently rude or inconsiderate in certain locations.

Face it Jman.

You believe that you should be able to Vape Anywhere. In Schools, Hospitals, Movies, Grocery Stores, Churches, etc. And Do Not feel that it is Necessary to Ask if it is OK to do so when in Someone's Business or Establishment.

Where I believe that a Business (or a School or Church) should have the Right to say if they want e-Cigarette use or Not.

It just comes down to a Fundamental Difference of Opinion.

And your Continual Attempts to Misdirect the Conversation and to Mislead readers with the "Outdoor" Ban Vaping ploy is causing you to Lose Credibility.

 

[zoiDman]

...

The one thing you can rest assuredly from your position is that someday I may post on ECF that I'm no longer batting 1.000 and when that day occurs, I'm sure I'll rethink my stance of vaping indoors or anywhere outdoors. Might not change dramatically, but it'll give me a moment of pause.

Today is not that day.

If you had Asked the Manager of that Burger King if it was OK to Hit on your PV inside His/Her Store, today May Have Been the Day.

But that was Part of the Reason you Didn't Ask. Right?

 

[Jman8]

Face it Jman.

You believe that you should be able to Vape Anywhere. In Schools, Hospitals, Movies, Grocery Stores, Churches, etc. And Do Not feel that it is Necessary to Ask if it is OK to do so when in Someone's Business or Establishment.

So, in this thread, you get to mischaracterize my position and be righteous but when I call you out on the cross posting of CTA's while you favor regulations, you get to claim "you have no clue what I do?"

I advocate for vape everywhere, and to date, you are unable to counter that with anything reasonable other than, "ask the owner for permission." I ask if you do that with outdoor vaping, and you duck the question, and deflect the very relevant point as vaping usage bans have extended to outdoor locations.

Where I believe that a Business (or a School or Church) should have the Right to say if they want e-Cigarette use or Not.

And I acknowledge that they have a say and that this does include all outdoor locations. I acknowledge this right. But I will not always honor this request because a) of the nature of vaping (backed by scientific data) and b) the reality of not getting caught when vaping openly with respect.

It just comes down to a Fundamental Difference of Opinion.

And your Continual Attempts to Misdirect the Conversation and to Mislead readers with the "Outdoor" Ban Vaping ploy is causing you to Lose Credibility.

I see the outdoor ban as highly relevant to the discussion as such bans are occurring and many vapers are rolling over on those because they've been sold on idea that certain locations are inherently rude or inconsiderate to vape in.

You favor usage regulations and think that will provide good name to vapers. I think our opponents who are pushing regulations look for vapers to admit to certain things so it will be easy to roll them over when certain measures are proposed as rule of law, and then proceed accordingly. "You said it was wrong to vape in a school, therefore surely you agree that anywhere outside that school within x feet is also wrong." Or "you said it was wrong to vape in any hospital, so surely you can agree that anywhere outside that hospital within x feet is also wrong."

Your position would have vapers going to some central manager of a hospital campus and asking, "is it okay if I vape in my car in the parking lot of this hospital?"

And if not asking that question, then presuming it is perfectly fine, when reality is, hospital would probably prefer you not do it anywhere, including own car, on their property or within 3 city blocks of their property. But, you'd deflect that request, and harp on people like me who dare to vape on 4th floor of the hospital in middle of hallway where zero people are visible for umpteen minutes.

 

[zoiDman]

It don't understand how you can say that I "mischaracterize my position".

When Every Time I point out to Others your Vape-Everywhere Attitude and how you Do Not Feel you have to Ask Owners of Businesses if they Allow Vaping in their Establishments, you Agree with Me.

You are Starting to kind of Go Around in Circles.

And I think you should Go Back and Reread Post #1187. And see if it might be Relevant to You and You Arguments?

 

[Jman8]

It don't understand how you can say that I "mischaracterize my position".

When Every Time I point out to Others your Vape-Everywhere Attitude and how you Do Not Feel you have to Ask Owners of Businesses if they Allow Vaping in their Establishments, you Agree with Me.

Because you are ignoring the fact that I sometimes do ask owners. Sometimes I don't. You then presume I never do, and thus present it as if I am inherently disrespectful with my indoor vaping. Hence the mischaracterization.

I ask if you always ask property owner/manager of outdoor location, throwing same logic back at you, and you deflect the question, pretty much knowing darn well you do not, nor likely ever will. Hence the hypocrisy of your position.