Why Vapers are getting a BAD NAME.

[zoiDman]

Because you are ignoring the fact that I sometimes do ask owners. Sometimes I don't. You then presume I never do, and thus present it as if I am inherently disrespectful with my indoor vaping. Hence the mischaracterization.

I ask if you always ask property owner/manager of outdoor location, throwing same logic back at you, and you deflect the question, pretty much knowing darn well you do not, nor likely ever will. Hence the hypocrisy of your position.

So Why Didn't you ask the Manager of the Burger King?

It seems that it leaves one to Think that you Didn't want to Chance It that He or She might have Said No.

Why Don't you make your Last Attempt to Shift the Conversation to Outdoor vaping instead of what we were Trying to Discuss here, Indoor Vaping in a Someone's Place of Business.

Because this becoming a Dead Horse Beating.

 

[DC2]

And this is why this topic is such a contentious issue.
And this is why there will always be two schools of thought.

Because you're both right.

Vaping indoors IS different than vaping outdoors.
But some of the the problems with vaping indoors ARE the same as the problems with vaping outdoors.

Where is the line where vaping somewhere becomes disrespectful?
Where is the line where vaping somewhere shows that vaping is not something to be hated like smoking was?

Indoors, outdoors, none of it matters, and yet it all matters.

 

[sonicdsl]

Zoid & Jman... take it to PM if you want to discuss this further. This unending circle needs to stop in open forum.

 

[zoiDman]

Zoid & Jman... take it to PM if you want to discuss this further. This unending circle needs to stop in open forum.

Can Do sonic.

 

[wv2win]

If you can say one thing about wv2win, it is that he is Consistent.

Because if he reads something that he Does Not agree with, instead of Contributing to the Thread, he will Attack the Poster for being in Favor of Bans. Or Out Right Accuse people of being an ANTZ.

And once again, there is an Attempt to Shift the Conversation to Outdoor Bans.

I contributed by pointing out the fallacy of your position. There was no attack on the poster, I just disagreed with your "logic" in supporting the idea that vapers should not vape where smoking is banned. As well as applauding the reasoned approach that Jman outlined.

I never called you an ANTZ. Or a troll, as you have called others on ECF. Yet your whole response is just an attack on me, accusing me of actions that are clearly not evident in my response. And you just ignore the actual point being made that when one supports the proposition that one should adhere to not vaping where smoking is prohibited, that includes outside. Quite ironic.

Most of us are quite familiar with your little games. They only further diminish any point your are trying to make.

 

[zoiDman]

I contributed by pointing out the fallacy of your position. There was no attack on the poster, I just disagreed with your "logic" in supporting the idea that vapers should not vape where smoking is banned. As well as applauding the reasoned approach that Jman outlined.

I never called you an ANTZ. Or a troll, as you have called others on ECF. Yet your whole response is just an attack on me, accusing me of actions that are clearly not evident in my response. And you just ignore the actual point being made that when one supports the proposition that one should adhere to not vaping where smoking is prohibited, that includes outside. Quite ironic.

Most of us are quite familiar with your little games. They only further diminish any point your are trying to make.

Why don't you PM me and you can Tell me All About It wv2win.

 

[DC2]

It mystifies me why so many of the people I like and respect are often at each other's throats.

There is only one poster whom I despise.
The rest I can have a civil conversation with as needed.

And I'm not a particularly social person, nor a very tolerant one in real life.



EDIT: I suppose if you go to the Outside there is another poster there I also despise.
EDIT: So I guess that makes two.
EDIT:

Shall I quote Rodney King here?

 

[wv2win]

Why don't you PM me and you can Tell me All About It wv2win.

I only respond sparingly to you on ECF, in support of the reasoned and logic based posters opposing you.

 

[zoiDman]

...

EDIT: I suppose if you go to the Outside there is another poster there I also despise.
...

On this side of the ECF, we Refer to that Members as... "The One Who Shall Not Be Named."

 

[Baldr]

Even Most of the Extreme Vape-Everywhere people in this Thread have Acknowledged that a Business should have the Right to Not Allow e-Cigarette Use in their Businesses. And that Asking is the Proper thing to Do.

I certainly agree that they have the right to not allow it. Much like, before the government mandated smoking bans, there were many restaurants which did not allow smoking. They handled that by putting up a sign saying "no smoking".

If I'm a manager, I don't want people asking me "Is it OK if I vape". I have other things to do. I also don't want them asking "Is it okay if I text?" or "Is it okay if I call my friend on the phone?" or "Is it alright if I read the newspaper?". If you're running a business, you have more important things to do. If I ran a business and considered vaping a problem, I'd put up a sign. Around here, even though it would be illegal anyway, most restaurants already have a sign saying No Smoking.

The basic problem is that you want us to treat it like smoking and you want us to assume that we are wicked horrible people who shouldn't be allowed to vape anyplace where we might be seen.

 

[zoiDman]

I certainly agree that they have the right to not allow it. Much like, before the government mandated smoking bans, there were many restaurants which did not allow smoking. They handled that by putting up a sign saying "no smoking".

If I'm a manager, I don't want people asking me "Is it OK if I vape". I have other things to do. I also don't want them asking "Is it okay if I text?" or "Is it okay if I call my friend on the phone?" or "Is it alright if I read the newspaper?". If you're running a business, you have more important things to do. If I ran a business and considered vaping a problem, I'd put up a sign. Around here, even though it would be illegal anyway, most restaurants already have a sign saying No Smoking.

The basic problem is that you want us to treat it like smoking and you want us to assume that we are wicked horrible people who shouldn't be allowed to vape anyplace where we might be seen.

Why don't you Read Post #1223 and then send me a PM.

 

[Dominique Hoogduin]

I certainly agree that they have the right to not allow it. Much like, before the government mandated smoking bans, there were many restaurants which did not allow smoking. They handled that by putting up a sign saying "no smoking".

If I'm a manager, I don't want people asking me "Is it OK if I vape". I have other things to do. I also don't want them asking "Is it okay if I text?" or "Is it okay if I call my friend on the phone?" or "Is it alright if I read the newspaper?". If you're running a business, you have more important things to do. If I ran a business and considered vaping a problem, I'd put up a sign. Around here, even though it would be illegal anyway, most restaurants already have a sign saying No Smoking.

The basic problem is that you want us to treat it like smoking and you want us to assume that we are wicked horrible people who shouldn't be allowed to vape anyplace where we might be seen.

The problem with running a shop or business. If u allow someone to vape it pleases that customer.. it can annoy another. It may be less irritating then smoke but its still noticeable and it lingers. people have no idea what they are sitting in.

If a business owner bans it on his premises thats his right to do so. Its the vapers right to choose to go to another place of business or just vape outside

I still have to sit outside with the smokers during my breaks.. why? because its not illegal by law to vape inside.. its determined in the house rules of individual company's. And theres nothing wrong with that.. its not about us being able to vape its about everyone else not being subjected to our vape without them wanting too.

 

[Jman8]

People outside can be subjected to your vape without them wanting to be.

And to the degree that they may not be, I can think of many indoor places where that is equally true, like a hospital for instance.

 

[sonicdsl]

Zoid & Jman... take it to PM if you want to discuss this further. This unending circle needs to stop in open forum.

This goes for everyone. I'd rather not close the thread, but anymore attacking goes on, and it will be closed.

Keep the discussion to the merits of the content ONLY.

 

[Forkeh]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. A little personal courtesy goes a long way. It's not that vaping should be banned in certain places. I'd completely disagree with that. It's just that, maybe consider the circumstances and act in a considerate manner.

For example, I'll vape in doors in certain places that I feel fairly confident that I won't be bothering anyone. As long as the managers/owners don't have a problem with it, places with good airflow, open space, and high ceilings are fair game. I have and still do vape in hardware stores, and other warehouse stores (not huge clouds though). But in small, confined spaces with poor airflow I avoid. If I want a vape, I'll go outside or in the bathroom (where my vapor will be less offensive than any other expected smell LOL).

And it's not that I think there's anything dangerous or wrong about vapor. It's just that, well personal taste is subjective. What smells good to me might be rank to the next person. I'd rather not invade their personal space with an obnoxious smell if I can help it. I try not to vape around people in enclosed areas for the same reason I wouldn't spray perfume, or would avoid farting in the same circumstance.

But that's just the way I feel about it. I'm not every vaper, and my own personal code of conduct isn't the standard for everyone else on earth.

 

[Jman8]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. A little personal courtesy goes a long way. It's not that vaping should be banned in certain places. I'd completely disagree with that. It's just that, maybe consider the circumstances and act in a considerate manner.

For example, I'll vape in doors in certain places that I feel fairly confident that I won't be bothering anyone. As long as the managers/owners don't have a problem with it, places with good airflow, open space, and high ceilings are fair game. I have and still do vape in hardware stores, and other warehouse stores (not huge clouds though). But in small, confined spaces with poor airflow I avoid. If I want a vape, I'll go outside or in the bathroom (where my vapor will be less offensive than any other expected smell LOL).

And it's not that I think there's anything dangerous or wrong about vapor. It's just that, well personal taste is subjective. What smells good to me might be rank to the next person. I'd rather not invade their personal space with an obnoxious smell if I can help it. I try not to vape around people in enclosed areas for the same reason I wouldn't spray perfume, or would avoid farting in the same circumstance.

But that's just the way I feel about it. I'm not every vaper, and my own personal code of conduct isn't the standard for everyone else on earth.

I mostly agree with everything you are saying. Perhaps entirely agree if you are saying that it is fair game to vape in larger spaces or places that are not crowded. But if saying only okay if it is permitted by owners/managers, I disagree on the basis that this does apply to outdoors. I believe it is fair assumption that if few people or no one is around, then it is okay. If many people are around, then less okay and best to seek permission. And just best to go with sense of common courtesy.

All people exhale something. That something is arguably, in all cases, bad breath. How bad that breath is, is entirely subjective, so safe assumption is it could plausibly offend someone. If common courtesy is stretched to a point of 'beyond common sense' then reasonable to say that all people everywhere ought to have a mouth filter on, to prevent bad breath from being smelled by others. I reckon breath stays in the air about as long as exhaled vapor from an eCig. Or at least the cigalike eCigs that I always use when in public.

 

[e-pipeman]

Imho it's sensible to ask permission to vape in a pub. If they say "no" you thank them and go to another pub. Always ask permission to vape BEFORE buying your beer. If enough people did this then many more pubs would welcome vaping rather than lose beer sales.

Once the landlord has given permission then you can vape with impunity. I still think that it is unreasonable to sub-ohm in a pub, however. Do that at home or at a vape meet.

 

[potholerepairman]

Being social means caring for others, imo.Would not like to see vapers act like" open ashault texas "down home folk, (the name of their cause escapes me).I love vaping with out conviction and want to see it prosper without pushing.I grew up in dc during some of the hippy days of trash cans of illegal stuff given to kids and anyone who walked past(smokein, earthday original etc...) the rope on the monument grounds.It was fun, but wrong to me.We all have an interest to keep it going, not just I got mine forget about the rest, vape on .

 

[h0tsh0t]

I'm fairly new to vaping but (here in the UK where smoking in public places is banned) vape openly in public places/ shopping centres (malls)/ restaurants/ whatever. If in a very small "cozy" cafe/ restaurant I have occasionally asked permission of the waiter/ manager (if necessary) and explained that I'm vaping, not smoking. I do also take care not to produce huge clouds of vape (easy to make lighter if you inhale a second breath "on top" of the vape inhale and then exhale quickly rather than slowly), and not to vape some particularly strongly scented juice (eg turkish delight!) near other diners. My reasons for my behaviour? 1) I want to vape and don't believe I'm harming anyone (if I thought it was harmful I wouldn't do it myself! 2) I don't want to vape in the toilet (UK)/ restroom (USA) - that's just tacky - and 3) as a non-smoker previously (yes, that's right - I didn't smoke before, just took up vaping) I don't wish to go outside with the cigarette smokers and inhale their smoke clouds with fairly well established health risks of secondary smoke. I've only once been refused permission - in a dentist's waiting room, while waiting for my wife, and I accepted it with good grace and went and sat in my car outside to vape. Until, and unless, a ban is brought in (which I will help campaign against, and hope doesn't happen if ignorance and predjudice can be disarmed) I don't see why I should sneak around or stop vaping when I'm not hurting anyone.

 

[ABx009]

Disclaimer: My comments are about urban areas where smoking is more contentious and smokers are expected to avoid exposing others to their smoke. I realize that different areas will have different attitudes toward smoking, and smokers may be more brazen. In those areas, what I'm saying may be less relevant and it may be more worth vaping in public. I can't really speak to vaping in those places, and I assume that those different attitudes play some small part in the differences of opinion here.


IMO it's important that we be good citizens for the time being. There is no logical reason for the bans that some cities have enacted, but they are happening because, at least for the time being, it doesn't appear much different than smoking to most people, and to non-smokers it's still pretty rational to want to avoid exposure when the risks are yet unknown. I've generally found people to be a lot more accepting once they realize that I'm vaping and not smoking, but I think that it's important to keep it that way. The more that we self-regulate now, the less backlash there will be in the short term and the more freedom we'll have in the future when more people know about vaping and recognize the difference.

Right now it seems like we're hitting critical mass, in which more people know about it and it's becoming more common to see at least one vaper in a group of smokers. If we take care to vape where smoking is accepted (or tolerated, at least), then people will be exposed to it in a context in which they're prepared to be, and will be pleased to find that it doesn't affect them the same way. OTOH, if we're vaping where smoking is unthinkable, then people are going to have that initial shock of thinking that it's smoke and, rational or not, their subsequent thoughts will be all about justifying that initial reaction. I think we also have to keep in mind that just because people aren't reacting visibly doesn't mean that they're entirely accepting; a lot of people won't confront you no matter how much they may dislike it. Instead, they'll just go home and talk about how it should be banned.

I do think that we should be afforded a little leeway to vape in a few places where smoking is not allowed. I don't think there should be a problem in an out-of-the-way corner or a place like a bar, as long as the owners/staff give permission, and I don't see a problem with vaping in most outdoor spaces as long as we make a small effort not to envelop people in clouds of vapor (especially kids). One of the nice things about vaping is that it doesn't smoulder, so waiting an extra 5 seconds for someone to walk past will avoid exposing them to really any vapor at all.

Lastly, if we don't show some restraint, then people will think it less credible when we talk about vaping being harmless. People are funny about others' addictions, and when they perceive someone as being so addicted that they can't control themselves, and can't wait 10 minutes for their next fix, then it doesn't matter how much science you have to back you up; they'll see it as inherently bad and make blanket assumptions.

The bottom line is that the more courteous we are now, the more leeway we'll get in the future until, hopefully, it's accepted as harmless and the general population can see a cloud of vapor and not assume that it's smoke. Until then, however, pushing a "deal with it" kind of attitude is more likely to result in backlash, and make us look like fiends that are so addicted to nicotine that we have to be regulated because we're incapable of regulating ourselves.