A bit annoyed: vaping indoors all of a sudden upset ONE coworker

[Rossum]

As I see this thing: You might or might not be doing more harm than help for vaping, and if vaping gets banned in your favorite bar for example, you are in no position to cry about it. If someone complained about your vaping in the bar, it will most likely be banned in that specific bar for every vaper possibly coming to the bar.

OK, so I shouldn't vape in my favorite bar so that vaping doesn't get banned there. Good idea! You want me not to vape there so that vaping is allowed there for other people, is that right?

FWIW, I don't go to bars. But if I did, it sure wouldn't be my MTl vaping at moderate power levels that got vaping prohibited by the bar's management. It would some young cloud chaser fogging up the place.

 

[HotRodCarts]

That's a huge admission on your part given your earlier question.

Do you think there are things "generally regarded as safe" that are also not 100% safe? Perhaps air in a room would be example of this for you. I'm sure there are plenty of examples you could think of.

Me, I think of exhaled eLiquid vapor as in that category. I'm glad current scientific data backs up my thoughts on this.

Carry on then and blow your vape in peoples faces.

Define polite vaping. As no form of vaping has been proved to be harmful polite or not you have no case.

yes there are a lot of things 100% safe. Vaping is one of them. Once harm reduction is lowered below the 5% threshold for all intents and purposes it is 100% safe as any harm is not verifiable. there is not
a large enough pool of sick people to determine the actual cause.
Everyone in the world has a risk factor.

I already gave my definition of what I think polite vaping is in a previous post.

 

[Woofer]

Carry on then and blow your vape in peoples faces.

It is tougher to defend an opinion than it is to simply have an opinion.

 

[YoursTruli]

It is tougher to defend an opinion than it is to simply have an opinion.

....especially when a group of members make sure any opinion you have that they dislike or disagree with is beaten to death.

 

[AndriaD]

May i ask how old are you? When I was in school (mid/late 1980s, in secondary school), there were huge ashtrays everywhere FOR THE TEACHERS. (And it wasn't some godforsaken dump, but a prestigious school with 300+ year old history.) Workplaces and most public spaces (incl. transport, etc.) were smoking spaces by default.
Not saying it was good, just that's how things were not so long ago.

I really, really missed being able to smoke while I went about the mind-numbing boredom of GROCERY SHOPPING. Or standing in line ANYWHERE. I now use the drive-thru at one of my banks, because they always have a damned long line inside -- so because people are being idiots about vapor, I'm wasting gas and causing yet more air pollution. Yeah, there's a real win!

Andria

 

[Woofer]

....especially when a group of members make sure any opinion you have that they dislike or disagree with is beaten to death.

Like this

And it will be inconsiderate people like you we can thank when vaping is banned.

followed by this

It just amazes me how rude and inconsiderate some people are and give polite vapors a bad name.

and this

I see a lot for "forum scientists" that seem 100% positive that second hand vape is 100% safe.
Does anyone have some REAL evidence of this? And if so can you please post the source I'd like to read it.

I am extraordinarily happy that no one gets away without challenge for stating "opinions" like these.

 

[AndriaD]

OK, so I shouldn't vape in my favorite bar so that vaping doesn't get banned there. Good idea! You want me not to vape there so that vaping is allowed there for other people, is that right?

FWIW, I don't go to bars. But if I did, it sure wouldn't be my MTl vaping at moderate power levels that got vaping prohibited by the bar's management. It would some young cloud chaser fogging up the place.

ROFL... I'm frankly amazed at all these benighted places that don't even allow smoking in bars. Here in Ga, we have this really sensible law that says if a place is open and can be frequented by those under 18, you can't smoke there -- though it says nothing about vaping. And if a place requires one to be 18 just to walk in the door -- SUCH AS A BAR! -- you can smoke there! So yeah, you can vape there too.

But I stopped going to bars when I stopped poisoning my brain and liver with alcohol.

Andria

 

[pappcam]

May i ask how old are you? When I was in school (mid/late 1980s, in secondary school), there were huge ashtrays everywhere FOR THE TEACHERS. (And it wasn't some godforsaken dump, but a prestigious school with 300+ year old history.) Workplaces and most public spaces (incl. transport, etc.) were smoking spaces by default.
Not saying it was good, just that's how things were not so long ago.

I don't care about the 80's and it's not at all pertinent to this debate. Vaping is about 10 years old. That is the time frame I'm talking about. There has been no smoking allowed in the places you speak of since vaping came on the scene so that means when you were smoking before you started vaping you weren't lighting up at school, in the doctor's office, on a plane, in the Walmart cereal aisle. Now that you vape you feel you should be able to do this although smoking has been marginalized and pushed outdoors and banned altogether in certain outdoor places?

Do you really think blowing plumes of vapour in any of these places is somehow going to make people take your side?

Also, I was born in the mid-sixties so I'm well aware of how things "used to be".

 

[Jman8]

yes there are a lot of things 100% safe. Vaping is one of them.

Hey, we disagree on something. Finally. What would be (some of) the other things that you know of to be 100% safe?

 

[Jman8]

Carry on then and blow your vape in peoples faces.

Why would I do that?

Like, I understand exhaled human breath to be GRAS, but can't recall the last time I walked up to someone in public and blew on their face(s).

People who think this is epitome of vaping in public make me wanna ask, have you ever seen public vaping?

 

[Jman8]

I don't care about the 80's and it's not at all pertinent to this debate. Vaping is about 10 years old. That is the time frame I'm talking about. There has been no smoking allowed in the places you speak of since vaping came on the scene so that means when you were smoking before you started vaping you weren't lighting up at school, in the doctor's office, on a plane, in the Walmart cereal aisle. Now that you vape you feel you should be able to do this although smoking has been marginalized and pushed outdoors and banned altogether in certain outdoor places?

Yes.

I feel smokers ought to be able to do it. I very much wish we/they weren't marginalized. If a smoker can get away with smoking in public, I'm all for it. That a vaper can makes the actual point a no brainer.

Do you really think blowing plumes of vapour in any of these places is somehow going to make people take your side?

I actually do, but I acknowledge it is unlikely. For me, I'm more in the mindset of 'you'll never know.' So, with that said, I don't see how a side could be chosen. But it would be interesting if say 3 vapers entered a building, went their separate ways, all took a minimum of 5 puffs while in there for a half hour, and then other people visiting that building were asked if they noticed anything. Anything at all. Cause I'm thinking if 3 smokers entered same building, taking minimum of 5 puffs, that there'd be a few people that notice that. I think if only vapers (who didn't vape in the building) were interviewed upon exit, that even they wouldn't have a clue that people were vaping in the same building as them, and yet same vapers would have a pretty darn good idea if anyone smoked while they were in there. If it were me, I'd be sure to take a puff (or two) right by the main entrance to help make the point even stronger. You'd never know I vaped in there.

I might just fly to Finland and say I vaped everywhere and see how they react. Would be even more fun/funny if I didn't vape, but told them I did. I'd find it incredibly humorous.

Also, I was born in the mid-sixties so I'm well aware of how things "used to be".

Hey, study up on the ANTZ stuff then if there is any part of you that entertains things changed because of how smokers are. I used to think it was smokers myself. Then I became aware. Hard to maintain ignorance after one has actual awareness.

 

[skoony]

Carry on then and blow your vape in peoples faces.

Anyone blowing vapor in peoples faces is not vaping, we call it disturbing the peice here.

Do you really think blowing plumes of vapour in any of these places is somehow going to make people take your side?

Do you really think if perhaps there was no bans and we did vape in these places
the general public would freak out or something. Why do some people assume they
know how other people are going to react. Before the county rammed through the smoking
bans here every single business had already addressed the issue and had their own
policies in place and everyone was happy. Yes right here in good old Saint Paul MN we
did it ourselves without government help but,they butted in anyway and took all the credit.
These bans are about control. They are about dumbing down society. They are about not
letting society take care of its own business in the normal course of events.
It's against the law not to have a no smoking sign,why? Everyone knows there's no smoking.
If government is ultimately allowed to arbitrate something as benign as vaping we all
are lost.

Regards
Mike

 

[pluviose]

Anyone blowing vapor in peoples faces is not vaping, we call it disturbing the peice here.


Do you really think if perhaps there was no bans and we did vape in these places
the general public would freak out or something. Why do some people assume they
know how other people are going to react. Before the county rammed through the smoking
bans here every single business had already addressed the issue and had their own
policies in place and everyone was happy. Yes right here in good old Saint Paul MN we
did it ourselves without government help but,they butted in anyway and took all the credit.
These bans are about control. They are about dumbing down society. They are about not
letting society take care of its own business in the normal course of events.
It's against the law not to have a no smoking sign,why? Everyone knows there's no smoking.
If government is ultimately allowed to arbitrate something as benign as vaping we all
are lost.

Regards
Mike

A thousand likes, Mike.

 

[pluviose]

I don't care about the 80's and it's not at all pertinent to this debate. Vaping is about 10 years old. That is the time frame I'm talking about. There has been no smoking allowed in the places you speak of since vaping came on the scene so that means when you were smoking before you started vaping you weren't lighting up at school, in the doctor's office, on a plane, in the Walmart cereal aisle. Now that you vape you feel you should be able to do this although smoking has been marginalized and pushed outdoors and banned altogether in certain outdoor places?

Do you really think blowing plumes of vapour in any of these places is somehow going to make people take your side?

Also, I was born in the mid-sixties so I'm well aware of how things "used to be".

1. "Taking sides" is a two way street. If someone decides to take my side (for they find that their own convictions, principles, opinions, whatever align with mine), then i'll feel damn honoured, humbled, and even loyal to them.
Likewise, if i happen to take someone's side, they damn better feel honoured by it.
That's how "societal consensus" works. It's a mutual, unspoken agreement (a dynamic) between INDIVIDUAL people.

2. As far as i see, nobody here is banging on about "vaping rights in the grocery aisle". There are (always been) certain places / occasions where one would never smoke, nor vape - some of those for practical material reasons (like foodstores, museums, libraries), others more like cultural taboos (churches, etc.)

3. What on earth makes you think that we all walmart? Hereabouts only Asda has any affiliation with Walmart and i would never set foot in that place (esp. not with Aldi / Lidl offering continental quality at the same price league) - i hardly even go to Tesco, now that i don't buy tobacco anymore (they used to be the cheapest on 50g Virginia). If/when i need a good booze deal, i go to Morrisons.

 

[bigdancehawk]

ROFL... I'm frankly amazed at all these benighted places that don't even allow smoking in bars. Here in Ga, we have this really sensible law that says if a place is open and can be frequented by those under 18, you can't smoke there -- though it says nothing about vaping. And if a place requires one to be 18 just to walk in the door -- SUCH AS A BAR! -- you can smoke there! So yeah, you can vape there too.

But I stopped going to bars when I stopped poisoning my brain and liver with alcohol.

Andria

Once while vaping at my favorite bar I encountered HotRodCarts just as he was entering the joint and caught him on my iPhone video cam.

 

[YoursTruli]

I thought it was against the rules to attack other posters on ECF...

 

[Jman8]

Anyone blowing vapor in peoples faces is not vaping, we call it disturbing the peice here.

And is best understood as an individualized thing unless shown otherwise in a very consistent way. Otherwise, it truly would be in opposition's best interests to go into any indoor place, inhale vapor and exhale it intentionally into someone's face and capture that on video. Then suggest, this is what they (vapers) all do.

Or imagine if that was done outdoors, anywhere. I wonder how many vapers would then go along with the notion that even outdoors, there shouldn't be any (public) vaping? You're in a public park, no one is around for at least 200 feet from you, but still shouldn't vape there, based on the notion that someone once vaped there and they intentionally blew it into someone's face.

Do you really think if perhaps there was no bans and we did vape in these places
the general public would freak out or something.

I don't think the public would freak out UNLESS they were led to believe that SHV were dangerous to them, to inhale, or the public was self convinced (by substantial segment) that it is as bad as inhaling SHS. If instead lead to believe that it is akin to inhaling normal room air, and shown data to back that up, I think it would then come down to simple annoyance factor. So, if vaper were caught on a camera vaping and it then shown no one was around while they vaped, I would think vast majority (of non-vapers) would say, "I don't get what the possible problem is with this video you are showing me." But if shown a video of say 10 people vaping in same location and closeups were shown on all 10 where they inhaled and then directly exhaled into people's faces, and all recipients of that exhaled vapor were seen coughing or in some sense disgusted, I could see it being viewed as something is wrong. But if same 10 didn't purposely blow into people's faces, and crowd was shown to go on with whatever they are doing as if it is non-issue that people are vaping, I think opposition would be so defeated, it would be time to manufacture new video where it has to be spun as inherent problem for all involved.

 

[Jman8]

2. As far as i see, nobody here is banging on about "vaping rights in the grocery aisle". There are (always been) certain places / occasions where one would never smoke, nor vape - some of those for practical material reasons (like foodstores, museums, libraries), others more like cultural taboos (churches, etc.)

I go along with occasions, but not 'certain places one would never vape.' I'm very interested in one who mostly agrees with my take (that would be you @pluviose ) explaining to me what about these particular places makes it wrong/bad to vape in there, for practical reasons.

I guess I would also stipulate that with idea of different vape devices have different output. Personally, as one who doesn't use big devices that produces a lot of exhaled vapor, I still wouldn't see the issue with these places you mentioned on at least a few occasions. With little device I use, that would transfer from a few into many, but surely not all.

For me, an obvious situation to not vape is when more than say 5 of us are congregated into a space that is say 30 x 10 feet (or smaller), ventilation is likely poor, and for at least next 5 minutes there is strong likelihood that a non-vaper could enter the area, while the 5 of us remain, puffing away. For me, this would include a vape shop (that is open to non-vapers, which I would presume all of them are). It would also include some outdoor areas. Even then, I wouldn't assume harm that is likely to occur to anyone in that situation, but could see how it could be annoying (even to vapers).

But if the same amount of people were vaping in a Wal-mart sized building spread out, I would not understand how it would be seen as consistently annoying by anyone. Would take an overhead camera angle that is edited down to 10 seconds and happens to capture a vaper exhaling right when they turn an aisle corner and into close proximity of non-vaper. Even then, it could be treated as bumping into someone in public inadvertently, and thus dealt with a "excuse me, my bad" and neither person care and each go on their merry way. While I do acknowledge that it might not go that way and that person who does get face full of vapor, might be like "what the heck? Damn that's annoying."

It would be to me, fair game to discuss 'vaping etiquette' in the wal-mart sized building and present the many situations where it would plausibly be genuinely annoying to general public while also showing the many instances in same situation where it would be very okay/not annoying in that same building. A 10 minute video ought to be able to capture that.

On review of the places, the food store / restaurant is the only one that comes off as 'obvious' to me for place that I would think many / most people would say is not a place to vape. But even there, I can easily see how vaping etiquette comes into play and that situations could be shown, rather easily, showing that it is perfectly acceptable to vape in that location, while many situations in that location would not be acceptable to most people.

But alas, I don't know if human civilization will ever get to place where we are open minded enough to discuss vaping etiquette for indoor places. It's nice to think about, though.

 

[AndriaD]

I go along with occasions, but not 'certain places one would never vape.' I'm very interested in one who mostly agrees with my take (that would be you @pluviose ) explaining to me what about these particular places makes it wrong/bad to vape in there, for practical reasons.

I guess I would also stipulate that with idea of different vape devices have different output. Personally, as one who doesn't use big devices that produces a lot of exhaled vapor, I still wouldn't see the issue with these places you mentioned on at least a few occasions. With little device I use, that would transfer from a few into many, but surely not all.

For me, an obvious situation to not vape is when more than say 5 of us are congregated into a space that is say 30 x 10 feet (or smaller), ventilation is likely poor, and for at least next 5 minutes there is strong likelihood that a non-vaper could enter the area, while the 5 of us remain, puffing away. For me, this would include a vape shop (that is open to non-vapers, which I would presume all of them are). It would also include some outdoor areas. Even then, I wouldn't assume harm that is likely to occur to anyone in that situation, but could see how it could be annoying (even to vapers).

But if the same amount of people were vaping in a Wal-mart sized building spread out, I would not understand how it would be seen as consistently annoying by anyone. Would take an overhead camera angle that is edited down to 10 seconds and happens to capture a vaper exhaling right when they turn an aisle corner and into close proximity of non-vaper. Even then, it could be treated as bumping into someone in public inadvertently, and thus dealt with a "excuse me, my bad" and neither person care and each go on their merry way. While I do acknowledge that it might not go that way and that person who does get face full of vapor, might be like "what the heck? Damn that's annoying."

It would be to me, fair game to discuss 'vaping etiquette' in the wal-mart sized building and present the many situations where it would plausibly be genuinely annoying to general public while also showing the many instances in same situation where it would be very okay/not annoying in that same building. A 10 minute video ought to be able to capture that.

On review of the places, the food store / restaurant is the only one that comes off as 'obvious' to me for place that I would think many / most people would say is not a place to vape. But even there, I can easily see how vaping etiquette comes into play and that situations could be shown, rather easily, showing that it is perfectly acceptable to vape in that location, while many situations in that location would not be acceptable to most people.

But alas, I don't know if human civilization will ever get to place where we are open minded enough to discuss vaping etiquette for indoor places. It's nice to think about, though.

I go along with you probably about 99% on the matter of vaping in hospitals, and stealth-vaping in general, but there is one place I would never vape, under any circumstances -- mind you, I am not religious, but I would not vape in the place of worship of any religion -- church, synagogue, temple, or what have you. This is the one situation in which I would call the restraining factor "respect," rather than courtesy. I would not wish others to disrespect anything I hold sacred, and I would never want to offer any sort of disrespect to the place of worship of any religion -- I would never have smoked there, and won't vape there either; to me it feels inappropriate.

Andria

 

[pluviose]

I go along with occasions, but not 'certain places one would never vape.' I'm very interested in one who mostly agrees with my take (that would be you @pluviose ) explaining to me what about these particular places makes it wrong/bad to vape in there, for practical reasons.

Sorry - should've explained it in the earlier post.

Museums - you simply don't want to release any amount of humectant into a museum environment. (Let alone unknown / uncontrolled amounts.) It's a very fine-tuned precarious thing to set and maintain the optimum humidity etc. conditions (esp. in "mixed materia" spaces), exhaled vape in the air is the least thing you want there.
Heck, if it was up to me, i would ban breathing in museums. (You can guess i used to work in the museum industry... Ban people - problem solved!)

Libraries - basically the same as for museums, above.
That aside, there's the noise factor - libraries are really twitchy about noises above whisper level. Vaping is noisy. My protanks sizzle like bacon frying, my new Lemo is like Darth Vader manning a popcorn stall - while i love their noises, i can imagine that they would irritate the hell out of non-vapers in a library.

Food-store / storage situations - again, the same-ish as above, plus smell reasons. Again if you think about conditions of stuff like, say, loose tea or dry-cured ham or coffee beans, various spices, cheeses, etc. etc. (Both my maternal grandparents were lifelong smokers, and they ran a tea- coffee- "fine food" business before WW2 - my grandpa, big smoker himself, used to chase out even the mayor with a lit pipe / cig from the premises for "messing with the air". (He used to roast his own blend of coffee twice a week - the smell always drew in lotsa customers..) I understand that nowadays most foodstuff come pre-packaged anyway, and vaping is not smoking, so it's mostly a mental block with me with not much rational background. One would need to go to Italy or suchlike where they still do "real food" for it to become a real issue with airborne humectants.