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A couple questions, and.... Did I waste some money?

Discussion in 'Liquid Extraction From Tobacco' started by bover907, Feb 13, 2018.

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  1. bover907

    bover907 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 5, 2014
    Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
    I ordered my supplies when I was like 30 pages into the 45 some odd page cold maceration thread, and I ordered 10 micron paper in addition to the 2.5 micron stuff. Ironically the 10 micron stuff was twice the $$$!

    While the stuff was on the way, I started reading that many people were going straight from coffee filters, to the 2.5 micron paper. As most of the extraction threads have been closed for a couple years now, I'm wondering how many stages of filtration people are doing now?

    I put my cold macerations in jars on Feb 2nd, and I'm going to do a crock pot soak to get me by until the cold steeps are done. I'm using straight PG for all of my extracting. What's the current best knowledge on now long to leave the jars heating in the crock pot? I plan on filtering the crock pot stuff right away to have extract to mix for immediate use, so I don't have to buy anymore juice.

    As always, any and all help is greatly appreciated.
     
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  2. Upinsmoke

    Upinsmoke Senior Member Verified Member

    Aug 2, 2017
    Suffolk UK
    Hi Str8vision is yer man for an answer to that one.
    I've tried a six hour hot soak in VG.
    Not something I will be repeating.
    I presume your tobacco is already in PG.
    Before you cook I would wait for some good advice .
    I'm sold on heated ethanol extraction.
    I'll follow with interest .
     
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  3. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA

    Most PG based extracts require only two filtering steps. An inexpensive coffee filter works great for the first step, separating the tobacco from solvent after the flavor extraction is complete. (Coffee filters generally provide 30-50 microns retention) Then the extract can be filtered through a high retention filter like one of the 2.5 micron filters you bought, this is the second and final stage of filtration. Normally no other filtering steps are necessary when using PG as the extraction solvent. If the 10 micron filters you've bought are large enough perhaps you could use them in place of a coffee filter since you already have them on-hand. Or, you could filter the extract through a 10 micron filter prior to the final 2.5 micron filtration. Extracts produced using hot extraction methods "occasionally" need an intermediate filtration step to help prevent them from clogging a high retention filter, they do tend to be gunkier.


    For "quick" results when using PG as the extraction solvent try 150F for 72 hours. Fast, hot extractions can occasionally taste a little murky but they'll do in a pinch. Personally, I would only make as much as I needed to get through until the cold extractions were ready and filtered. Quick hot extractions are great for sampling new tobaccos but don't provide the best flavor and are easy to ruin.

    For quality over speed, try a hybrid hot/cold method. With the macerated tobacco in a sealed canning jar, heat it to 150F and then turn the crock pot off and let it sit for five days, repeat this hot/cold cycle every five days for a month. This method provides a clean flavor intensity comparable to a 60+ day cold soak. 50% faster than a traditional cold soak but excellent flavor depth and quality.

    When time isn't a factor, nothing beats the easiest method available, a simple long term cold soak. This method is bulletproof, you can't mess it up. Seal the macerated tobacco in a canning jar and stored in a dark place for 6 weeks to 6 months. The longer it's allowed to soak the stronger the flavor will get.

    I always performed in-process sampling before determining the extraction was complete. Draw off 3ml of solvent, filter it through a small piece of coffee filter, mix with VG/PG and nic and vape it. If the flavor's too light or nondescript I let the macerated tobacco continue soaking for a few weeks longer before sampling it again. If the sample tasted good freshly mixed it'll taste even better after a few months of aging and is ready to filter. :)
     
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  4. bover907

    bover907 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 5, 2014
    Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
    Thanks!
    Yes, the cold macerations I put in on the 2nd, are going to sit for AT LEAST 8 weeks. I just wanted to do the quick hot extractions to make some stuff in the interim. I don't want to buy any more liquid, or extracts, after I bought all these supplies.
     
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  5. bover907

    bover907 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 5, 2014
    Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
    Now that I think of it, I should have put the heat extractions in on the 2nd. everything would have been steeping over a week now. I have about a week of e-juice left, so I should be ok. With this heat extract, each successive bottle I vape will get better as I go along, as I see it, and I'll be able to really let my cold extraction steep and age properly.
     
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  6. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    Extracting flavor from tobacco and mixing into NET is the easy part, finding really good tobacco(s) to extract is the challenge.

    Not all tobacco tastes good as NET. My favorite tobaccos back when I smoked didn't make good NET, they were lackluster at best. I had to sample many, many different tobacco blends to find a few that I liked as NET. The tobaccos I like to vape I never would have smoked.

    I lose the ability to taste certain flavors if I vape them for too long a period of time. To prevent this flavor "burnout" I had to find a wide variety of different tasting tobaccos that I could rotate throughout the week. Everyone is different but I had to sample -hundreds- of tobaccos to find 20 that I liked in vape form. I keep an ample supply of my "favorites" aged and ready so that I have a variety to choose from on a daily basis. I vape around 10ml of NET each day and usually no more than 4ml of any one particular flavor before switching to another.
     
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  7. bover907

    bover907 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 5, 2014
    Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
    OK, so on keep warm, the water around the jar measures 163.4ºF. How long to leave this sit is good? If I remove it before work tomorrow, it'll be on for 17hours, if I wait until after work it'll be like 32 hours.

    I did three tobaccos to start out. Two pipe blends and a RYO cig tobacco.

    I did one for this heat extraction just to try it, but I still have about 5 oz of tobacco sitting around waiting to get extracted.

    ETA I just looked at the jar after 7 hours and the pg in the jar is very dark. It was Lane RLP-6. It's way darker that my cold macerations that have been sitting for 11 days lol.
     
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  8. bover907

    bover907 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 5, 2014
    Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
    The two things that keep me from doing heated ethanol extractions.... They don't sell everclear in PA, and as a recovering alcoholic, driving to another state for PGA seems counterintuitive to me, lol. Otherwise I'd be using it from a practicality standpoint.
     
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  9. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    For a quick hot extraction you'll need to let it sit at that temperature for about 72 hours. 163F should be ok but just remember that too high a temperature can result in a murky taste, natural tobacco flavor is surprisingly delicate. I'd check the temp again in an hour or so, much higher than where it's currently at might cause a problem.

    I used to manipulate the lid to help control the temperature on mine. I'd leave about a half inch gap open at one end of the crock pot to maintain 150 - 155F. Unfortunately, this also allows some evaporation to occur so I'd need to add water to the bath every ten hours of so.

    Ultimately, I bought a programmable temperature controller, worked like a charm and made life much simpler. The controller automatically turns the crock pot on and off to maintain a preset temperature.
     
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  10. bover907

    bover907 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 5, 2014
    Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
    So, after the heat extraction, I let it sit for a couple days, and pulled a sample today. I mixed a 5ml test batch, 6mg nic, 40/60 pg/vg, at 15% extract.

    Here's my observations:
    1. The extract was really dark, but I expected it to be because of how dark the RLP-6 is.
    2. The juice ended up darker than say, cream soda, but not quite cola dark
    3. The flavor was stronger (and maybe a little different) than I expected
    4. The casing was definitely more forward than the tobacco. (not sure here because I'm really a novice when it comes to tobacco)
    So, is the casing going to give way to the base tobaccos with some steep time? I would say based on flavor intensity alone, it's probably ready to filter. I just hope the tobacco comes more forward after some steep time, as opposed to the shake-n-vape flavor.

    I must say though, I do feel a sense of accomplishment having made my first ever bottle of juice (small as it was, lol), especially having extracted the tobacco myself.

    Thanks for all the help!
     
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  11. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    NET comes in a variety of colors including tan, green, red, brown even black depending on the tobacco(s) that are extracted and how they were cured. After proper filtration and mixing, most NET tends to be transparent, you can see through it. This level of clarity always surprised me but for some reason I find it pleasing.

    Yes, over time the tobacco element normally comes forward pushing casing/top note flavors into the background but it really depends on the blend that's in play. In NET form, Lane tobacco blends (my favorites back when I smoked) tend to have a mild/mellow tobacco flavor. My favorite aromatic (flavored) blend Sutliff's "Molto Dolce" is great when freshly mixed but tends to lose much of it's secondary flavorings after steeping for too long. It's one of the few NETs that doesn't benefit from aging and must be enjoyed "shake-n-vape".

    Yes, I fully understand that feeling of satisfaction and accomplishment. My journey began back in the -dark ages- of home extraction, before things like filtration had been adequately thought through. It took years of trial and error (experimentation) before I was finally happy with the NETs I could make. Enjoy your NET, you've earned it! Better still, sit back and cherish just how embarrassingly inexpensive it is to make. :)
     
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  12. bover907

    bover907 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 5, 2014
    Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
    Yeah. Ejuice calculator said the 5ml bottle was $.07, lmao! Im probably going to strain and filter it on Tuesday when im off work.

    Maybe I'll even leave it filter while at work the next day or 2, so i can get some mixed and steeping.
     
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  13. bover907

    bover907 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 5, 2014
    Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
    @Str8vision, You're right. Looking thru the pipes and cigars website is enough to give one an anxiety attack! I have one quick question on filtering. Is one pass thru a 2.5 micron filter paper enough, or should I do two passes, or more? Setting up gravity filtering before bed or work, and then finding them done when I return is just too easy!
     
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  14. Str8vision

    Str8vision Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 26, 2013
    Sallisaw, Oklahoma USA
    Amazingly, P&C carries only a fraction of the tobaccos/blends that are available around the globe. Another online source I regularly use is Smokingpipes.com. Both vendors combined carry enough variety to keep even a fanatic like me perplexed by the sheer volume of choices. They say variety is the spice of life ;)



    One pass is all you need. The 2.5 micron paper lab filters you have are "absolute" rated filters in that they catch/retain -all- particles that are 2.5 microns or larger in a single filtering pass. Filtering the extract again through the same 2.5 micron filters would yield nothing. This is why I highly recommend these types of filters for the "final" filtering step.



    Making NET at home doesn't really require much effort, mainly just a lot of waiting. Waiting for the flavor to extract, waiting for the extract to filter, waiting for the mixed NET to age. It's the laziest hobby I've ever enjoyed. Not only is NET embarrassingly inexpensive to make, I almost feel guilty because of the lack of effort it requires....well, almost. :)
     
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  15. bover907

    bover907 Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 5, 2014
    Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
    So, I heat extracted some Peter Stokkebye 84 Turkish, and I took a sample of a RYO "red" blend that I have cold steeping since the 2nd. After tasting these two, I've observed that cigarette tobaccos are a lot sweeter than I anticipated, lol. I may have to get some single varietals to extract to so some blending. Something to maybe take some of the sweetness out of a cigarette type extract, but not make it too far on the opposite end, Like an English pipe blend I bought from a commercial vendor which was way too stout for my liking.
     
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